Yes, this is another thread about selling beer... but on a tiny scale.

[Sammy86]

The best analogy I can think of is more like the people who do “pop up” restaurants, if that is even still a thing. They are selling meals out of their homes.

This is not true, pop up restaurants are not selling meals out of their homes. They are required by law (depending on state) the same rules and regulations as a normal restaurant. Most use the equipment from the restaurant they are popping up in while others are using industrial kitchen spaces to make their creations because you can't just make it at home.

Source: My Cousin did pop ups for his donut shop and just opened a brick and mortar. Voted best donut in Boston 2020!

 

[Nate R]

Oh, this looks like a fun thread to wade into...
I have a question for @iamwhatiseem...
What is the endgame for Tiny Beer Sales?
In other words- is it principle? Or is a stepping stone to larger dreams?
In other words- are you wishing you could go to market for proof of concept? With dreams of a larger brewery down the line? If that is the case, I would think there are other, easy methods to go about this. Contests, Opinions of friends (or better yet- friends of friends, etc.). Maybe try to connect with a local pro and see about getting a recipe brewed or some such cray notion.
If it is indeed a principle conversation, then I think maybe this belongs over in debate forum, as it will inevitably degrade into political thoughts and opinions, as unfortunately everything seems to do in 2020.
I love HBT, home-brewing, and beer in general because i can get away from politics. (Although if it does sneak in, more beer helps chase it away!)
Just my $0.02 worth.

[Mods- if I stepped out of line, please delete my comment before booting me off? Thanks.]

 

[Maxkling]

I think you guys are inflating his concept.

It sounds like he honestly just wants a small stand at a small farmers market to offer his home brew for sale, legally. Just as someone sells jellies or fudge or taffy.

His point of view is there should be a lower tier license for the hobby brewer to sell their product. We all know there is no profit there.

I love the idea of doing a collaboration brew with a local brewery, I might take this idea to a few local breweries and have a home brew competition with the winner getting his product on a small run. That sounds like the best way of getting a “home brew” out on the market.

 

[rsquared]

I'm not so sure we're inflating the concept (at least as originally stated), just it's impractical because of all the other stuff that also has to be dealt with once you turn it into a business. Those people selling small batch products are either doing a whole lot of work behind the scenes (business licenses, taxes, etc.) or they're skirting the law (a lot of businesses that small don't bother or even know all the license requirements), and they fly under the radar. The thing is, once alcohol gets added to the mix, you HAVE to cross all those t's and do't the i's, because there will be a lot more scrutiny. In other words, the sheer amount of other regulations are a hindrance to the "tiny" brewery idea.

In the end though, it sounds like we've got what in the tech industry tend to call an XY problem:

The XY problem is asking about your attempted solution rather than your actual problem. This leads to enormous amounts of wasted time and energy, both on the part of people asking for help, and on the part of those providing help.

• User wants to do X.
• User doesn't know how to do X, but thinks they can fumble their way to a solution if they can just manage to do Y.
• User doesn't know how to do Y either.
• User asks for help with Y.
• Others try to help user with Y, but are confused because Y seems like a strange problem to want to solve.
• After much interaction and wasted time, it finally becomes clear that the user really wants help with X, and that Y wasn't even a suitable solution for X.

In post 18, the X is finally revealed:

That is the thing though, I am not interested in the money. I don't want to own a brewery at this time in my life.
However, I would love to have the opportunity to have people taste, and hopefully appreciate, my beer.
(BTW - in Indiana you can direct sell)
Yes I can host a tasting, but the experience of many is you get a bunch of idiots that just hear "free beer!!!" And if you do it with any regularity, they start showing up and literally knocking on your door for 'free beer!!"
I may very well be wishing out of my ass... I would just like more people than family/friends try my beer. If I say so myself, it is quite good.
I have a minimum of $10k in equipment/beer house. I wouldn't do that if it was only so-so.... just sayin.

So, OP wanted a way to share their beer (with a discerning group, not just freeloaders)[that's the X], decided selling was the best way to do that, and started a discussion about how to go about why a smaller brewery license should be allowed [the Y].

I mean, I think it turned into an interesting discussion anyways, but if they'd led with "Hey guys, got any ideas how I can get my beer in front of more people who will actually appreciate it and don't just get excited because it's free beer??" I'm sure a lot of interesting discussion in that direction could have been had as well.

 

[bracconiere]

Oh, this looks like a fun thread to wade into...

LOL, you can't just dip your toes into this...!! this is a serious topic about why drugs are big business, because they make people feel funny! and why you're not allowed to take them lightly!

 

[MMP126]

Man, I have thought long and hard on this subject...have tried to think of everything to be able to get my beer in the hands of others.

The biggest question for me is, What is your goal? To quit your day job and sell beer? To just share beer with people and have the experience of others enjoying what you make? Just having a side hustle with your beer?

Believe you me man, I have had ALL of these same thoughts. Mad that I cannot just sell my beer. People can start little jewelry shops, and sell LuLuRoe and crafts and little things like that, which require MINIMAL effort to get going. Maybe pay $200 for an LLC, open a bank account and buy some supplies. Pay sales tax. Most businesses can be that simple. But beer just is not.

But for me, what it turned into was facing facts...

You want to open your own brewery? Cool. Hope you have $1/2M to get everything you need. And that is really it. As others said, you cannot be profitable brewing 10gal at a time. And oh man, I have done that math. A few times. It just doesn't work. The margin isn't there to make money. You may be able to pay for the next batch, but that is about it. There is no chance of growing, expanding, or saving money when you brew such a small amount of beer.

Just want to get beer into the hands of others? Share and taste, and see what others think? That is great, and I LOVE that part of this. So here's what I do:

1. Enter BJCP competitions. I just find them on google and enter them. Its fun, and I get, most of the time, decent people that are experienced at tasting beer. And if you do good, you get some cool awards. Medals and such, maybe even a plaque! If you do REALLY well, maybe you can brew one of your beers at a professional brewery.

2. Participate in tastings for charity. These are so much fun! Its pretty much like participating in a beer festival. People try your beer, you meet other brewers, you try others beers, meet people, and help a good cause. I have done about 3-4 of these, and they are always a blast!

3. Just trade some beers. There are threads on this website. Start an Instagram and reach out to other home brewers there, and see if they want to trade a few bottles. I have traded with a few people there, and its great. Hit me up if you want to trade some beers (my instagram is in my signature below).

4. Invite people over to your place. Chill, get some food, have some beers. Laugh, have fun.

5. Just bring your beer places. I, for some reason, was always afraid to do this. Until a brewer friend of mine was just like "Yeah man, I always have a clean growler, a cooler and a bag of ice ready to go, just so I can share my beer.". Get a few growlers (If you dont have them already), a decent cooler, and take beer places. Its great fun, and a great way to meet and talk to people. You now have subject matter for your favorite thing, BEER!

I am friends with a couple pro-brewers, and man, I have talked their ears off about wanting to go pro. They tell me to do it! But, for some reason I have a hard time making the leap. Its not like other things or businesses. Beer is different.

Its funny, I sometimes get mad that I chose beer as the thing that I want to be good at and potentially want to make a living at. Why did I pick a thing that isn't profitable without a big investment (in my eyes). Why couldn't I just want to go buy a Cricut, and make iron-on T-shirts for soccer moms and shirts with silly sayings for little kids. But, I chose beer, and I love it. Will I go pro? Maybe one day. Well see. But for now, I will enjoy my beer, and when I can, try to have others enjoy it also!

 

[Rob2010SS]

I have no interest in selling my beer and the idea of owning a brewery doesn’t interest me at all so I’m voting no on a tiny license.

If you want to share your beer there are lots of ways, are you a member of a home brew club? What about pouring at a beer fest? And competitions are a a great way to get your name out there. And quite honestly you could just give it away, I’m sure where you work you could find people that would take it.

If you are that determined to sell your beer look into contract brewing, that might make more sense and less of an investment.

This is actually what we started doing - giving it away to people at work. We started out with (24) howlers that we had customized with our logo. We had a few friends we were always sharing beer with and we knew of others that wanted to do the same. So we bought the 24 thinking that we'd keep about 8 of them. Word got out and all 24 are out to people at work. My wife sends out a regular email to the "howler club" as far as whats on the schedule to be brewed and when beers are available. We don't hound people, it's up to them to bring the howlers in if they want what was released. We clean them, sanitize them, fill them and seal them with a heat wrap so there are no problems with driving them home or anything.

Not saying it's legal, but it's how we're accomplishing the goal of getting our beer out there. There are definitely people in that group of 24 that are friends and maybe just doing to to be supportive, but there are a lot of people in that group that are not really friends but were people interested in craft beer and the feedback has been really great!

 

[Nate R]

Man, I have thought long and hard on this subject...have tried to think of everything to be able to get my beer in the hands of others.

The biggest question for me is, What is your goal? To quit your day job and sell beer? To just share beer with people and have the experience of others enjoying what you make? Just having a side hustle with your beer?

Believe you me man, I have had ALL of these same thoughts. Mad that I cannot just sell my beer. People can start little jewelry shops, and sell LuLuRoe and crafts and little things like that, which require MINIMAL effort to get going. Maybe pay $200 for an LLC, open a bank account and buy some supplies. Pay sales tax. Most businesses can be that simple. But beer just is not.

But for me, what it turned into was facing facts...

You want to open your own brewery? Cool. Hope you have $1/2M to get everything you need. And that is really it. As others said, you cannot be profitable brewing 10gal at a time. And oh man, I have done that math. A few times. It just doesn't work. The margin isn't there to make money. You may be able to pay for the next batch, but that is about it. There is no chance of growing, expanding, or saving money when you brew such a small amount of beer.

Just want to get beer into the hands of others? Share and taste, and see what others think? That is great, and I LOVE that part of this. So here's what I do:

1. Enter BJCP competitions. I just find them on google and enter them. Its fun, and I get, most of the time, decent people that are experienced at tasting beer. And if you do good, you get some cool awards. Medals and such, maybe even a plaque! If you do REALLY well, maybe you can brew one of your beers at a professional brewery.

2. Participate in tastings for charity. These are so much fun! Its pretty much like participating in a beer festival. People try your beer, you meet other brewers, you try others beers, meet people, and help a good cause. I have done about 3-4 of these, and they are always a blast!

3. Just trade some beers. There are threads on this website. Start an Instagram and reach out to other home brewers there, and see if they want to trade a few bottles. I have traded with a few people there, and its great. Hit me up if you want to trade some beers (my instagram is in my signature below).

4. Invite people over to your place. Chill, get some food, have some beers. Laugh, have fun.

5. Just bring your beer places. I, for some reason, was always afraid to do this. Until a brewer friend of mine was just like "Yeah man, I always have a clean growler, a cooler and a bag of ice ready to go, just so I can share my beer.". Get a few growlers (If you dont have them already), a decent cooler, and take beer places. Its great fun, and a great way to meet and talk to people. You now have subject matter for your favorite thing, BEER!

I am friends with a couple pro-brewers, and man, I have talked their ears off about wanting to go pro. They tell me to do it! But, for some reason I have a hard time making the leap. Its not like other things or businesses. Beer is different.

Its funny, I sometimes get mad that I chose beer as the thing that I want to be good at and potentially want to make a living at. Why did I pick a thing that isn't profitable without a big investment (in my eyes). Why couldn't I just want to go buy a Cricut, and make iron-on T-shirts for soccer moms and shirts with silly sayings for little kids. But, I chose beer, and I love it. Will I go pro? Maybe one day. Well see. But for now, I will enjoy my beer, and when I can, try to have others enjoy it also!

Great points! I think in my neck of the woods (California) #2 is not legal. Just to distribute one must have licences, etc... Great post. Thanks

 

[Maxkling]

I think there is still a place for small batch brewing.

Example: years ago I went to Asheville before the scene really exploded, they were mostly brewpubs with Sabco systems. Now a brewpub is different than a brewery I understand this, but they were really successful with 15-30 gallon systems.

I’m not going to put forth the effort to compare laws a nano breweries vs a brew pubs but it might be a route to lawful small batch brewing.

 

[bracconiere]

Its funny, I sometimes get mad that I chose beer as the thing that I want to be good at and potentially want to make a living at.

damn, i always wanted to be a programmer, writing software to make some sort of work easier....now i'm an alcoholic homebrewer...i suck at both.....

and too @IslandLizard in the words of the Spathi from Star Control 2 (a video game from my youth) "Please don't smack me!" lol

 

[bleme]

Great points! I think in my neck of the woods (California) #2 is not legal. Just to distribute one must have licences, etc... Great post. Thanks

Also in California and #2 is definitely legal since AB 1425 passed in 2013. Pre-Covid, I was invited to give my beer away at about 10 events per year.

 

[Nate R]

Also in California and #2 is definitely legal since AB 1425 passed in 2013. Pre-Covid, I was invited to give my beer away at about 10 events per year.

That is AWESOME news! I am glad to hear that! I am also so happy with the relaxing of various misc. CA alcohol restrictions during Covid... but alas, I digress.

 

[rsquared]

Also in California and #2 is definitely legal since AB 1425 passed in 2013. Pre-Covid, I was invited to give my beer away at about 10 events per year.

Nice to know the details... I know I've poured at quite a few events in CA, but always as part of a club, so I wasn't sure if that was any different than an individual being allowed.

 

[MMP126]

I think there is still a place for small batch brewing.

Example: years ago I went to Asheville before the scene really exploded, they were mostly brewpubs with Sabco systems. Now a brewpub is different than a brewery I understand this, but they were really successful with 15-30 gallon systems.

I’m not going to put forth the effort to compare laws a nano breweries vs a brew pubs but it might be a route to lawful small batch brewing.

This may be the smallest amount of beer you can make, and still potentially make some money back. Tap sales will always be best, profitwise, so maybe that is how these places made it. I have just heard stories of people starting small (but usually 1bbl or larger), and wishing they went 5 or 7bbl out of the gate.

There just isn't much money in brewing and selling 1bbl at a time...

 

[MMP126]

This is actually what we started doing - giving it away to people at work. We started out with (24) howlers that we had customized with our logo. We had a few friends we were always sharing beer with and we knew of others that wanted to do the same. So we bought the 24 thinking that we'd keep about 8 of them. Word got out and all 24 are out to people at work. My wife sends out a regular email to the "howler club" as far as whats on the schedule to be brewed and when beers are available. We don't hound people, it's up to them to bring the howlers in if they want what was released. We clean them, sanitize them, fill them and seal them with a heat wrap so there are no problems with driving them home or anything.

Not saying it's legal, but it's how we're accomplishing the goal of getting our beer out there. There are definitely people in that group of 24 that are friends and maybe just doing to to be supportive, but there are a lot of people in that group that are not really friends but were people interested in craft beer and the feedback has been really great!

This is a fantastic idea. May steal it...

 

[Beermeister32]

The problem with doing this on any sort of a small scale has to do with our litigious society. If you brew up a batch, somebody drinks it and gets into a major collision, you will be sued. It doesn't matter if they drank a spoonful or a tankard, you will be named as a party to a lawsuit. You need insurance.

So, to brew and sell your small quantity you need to insurance up. The insurance companies will give you a huge question and answer sheet where you have to disclose amounts anticipated to sell, how much you sold last year, a breakout of different beer types, new products you made this year and any changes you made to existing products. Also, you will have to justify why you made those changes to each product, and keep a clean paper trail in the event of a lawsuit. After all of this, they will give you a contract for insurance. Because you will not be able to afford it all at once they will add insult to injury by financing it for you over a 12 month period.

So, let's say your general liability and product liability insurance package on your little brewery is $45,000 this year. You have to sell enough and be profitable enough to cover the nut on this as well as all your other business related expenses, of which there are many. So, 10 gallons a month isn't going to do it naturally. The only way to make it work is to scale up, and then you are in a real business, subject to all the other issues listed above. Most don't make it. It is entirely a different thing to make beer, versus making a business and money making beer. They aren't the same. Better to just enjoy your hobby. The public marketplace is a different effort altogether.

 

[Transamguy77]

@Rob2010SS that is an awesome idea! When I would give beer away at work I usually ask for a commercial beer as a trade. I love to share my beer but it’s nice to get samples of beers that I would not typically buy.

I am just starting to get back to it again after almost 2 years off so I’m not looking for a trade and I just want to share what I’m making.

 

[Rob2010SS]

@Rob2010SS that is an awesome idea! When I would give beer away at work I usually ask for a commercial beer as a trade. I love to share my beer but it’s nice to get samples of beers that I would not typically buy.

I am just starting to get back to it again after almost 2 years off so I’m not looking for a trade and I just want to share what I’m making.

Our logic was that we were brewing those beers anyway, and we have a half barrel fermenter. What if we scaled up the batches and just ALWAYS brewed half barrel batches and started this howler program. It's gotten a lot of good feedback.

 

[Curtis K.]

So, let's say your general liability and product liability insurance package on your little brewery is $45,000 this year.

Have you talked to insurance companies to get this ridiculous number?

When I was at NanoCon 2019 there were a couple insurance companies represented - I did not get hard numbers because I did not have a location, but $45,000 a year was not anywhere near what the reps were talking about. Beermeister32, if you are going to throw out these numbers, please make sure you can back it up with fact.

 

[LTBrewer]

I get that, but why not then laws governing sanitation etc. in selling baked goods???
Again, you can get sick, really sick from eating contaminated food, obviously. But you cannot get sick from beer, even if contaminated. You would basically have to literally add something bad to your beer in order to make someone sick.
Making beer/wine is inherently safe simply because of the low ph in beer/wine, and of course - alcohol.
The point I am making, is drinking home brew beer is monumentally safer than eating food made who knows where, sitting who knows where and who knows how long.
You tell me whose area/practices are cleaner - an experienced home brewer, or any Tom, Dick or Mary who decides to sell food? In Indiana, along with numerous other states, there are exactly zero regulations on selling baked goods. You are only required to label what it is. ex: "Banana Bread".
"Cottage Foods" are essentially almost unregulated. Yet there is 1,000 times the risk than that of consuming home brew.

There are laws for baked goods- In Mo, just to have baked good out for DONATIONS for scouts, we had to list names and accept personal responsibility if someone got sick. Can your 20 gallon operation weather being sued for $200K? Beyond that the reason is why we have the BATF, securing tax revenue and protecting the interests of the major breweries. I found out that latter personally when I got the return from overseas limits for alcohol into Mo, because of AB.

 

[LTBrewer]

It is easy to think that, but in your 66 years a lot has changed - beer laws have changed dramatically allowing the microbrewery industry to explode and in many states you can buy and use weed legally - unthinkable when I was young. At one time they actually made all booze illegal in the USA - can you believe that? Laws can and do change.

Just don't try to get a federal job after the "legal" weed. But I agree, there has been some movement.

 

[Beermeister32]

Yes, I've worked with insurance companies before. Your rates are based on a variety of factors, size and experience being some of them. Some insurers won't even insure startups, so your broker would be forced to place you into the secondary insurance market at higher cost. It is an example for sake of discussion, not a hard quote...

 

[madscientist451]

I want a license for TINY.
Why doesn't there exist a license in which you can sell beer, but only very small amounts. Let's say you can't sell more than 120 gallons a year. Or 10 gals a month. And getting that license should be much-much easier than getting even the "small" license which requires, as we all know, many hurdles and expenses.

We need to advocate for a tiny alcohol license.

Too many small producers would create a problem for tax auditing/enforcement, and tax revenue is the main reason that you have to get a license.
The tax auditor shows up at your "establishment" and wants to examine the books, but you are away for a two week vacation, you'll get fined for that.
Its actually cheaper to give away 10 gallons a month for free compared to all the record keeping and other hassles you would have to endure with maintaining a tiny license.
You can't barter your beer for something of value, but there is nothing wrong with giving it away selectively to people that invite you over for cookouts and super bowl parties.
Or instead of going to pubs, install your own pub in your backyard and be "open" for drop in guests one evening a week.
Some homebrew clubs have events where they pour for charity. If you get creative, you can find all kinds of ways to dispense 10 gallons a month without the problems you'll have dealing with the government.

 

[BuzzedBomber]

Whoa! There are a lot of negative responses here, and some down right bad information. Let's start with the idea you need $1/$2 million. Pure BS and hyperbole. We started a brewery AND restaurant for $500k (Augustino's in Wichita, KS). The Brewhouse and Taproom were executed for $250,000, using a Blichman pro series 3BBL and Alpha Brew Ops Fermenters and Brite Tanks, and Glacier glycol. We had built the motorized grain mill and keg cleaner. The concern over selling to accounts was not the motivation, it was about selling in our four walls. And someone quoting $45, 000 for liability insurance is just someone trying to stop your dream. I would recommend you pay some money for course work, I personally have a certificate from Portland State University in the Business of Craft Beverage which is WAY more comprehensive than the Brewers Association's feeble book on opening a brewery. Based on the comments in this thread so far, it is evident the majority of those responding aren't interested in you succeeding in this venture as I read them and do not find how they match reality (or are just very extreme as to make it seem impossible). I spent four years researching, getting training, befriending other brewer's, and working for free brewing beer for one of them before jumping in. Good luck if you pursue it! To the nay-sayers, keep believing it's an impossibility! It's a freaking crowded field, and too many people get in not realizing how hard it is, and not doing enough research. I fall in to that later group.

 

[MMP126]

Whoa! There are a lot of negative responses here, and some down right bad information. Let's start with the idea you need $1/$2 million. Pure BS and hyperbole. We started a brewery AND restaurant for $500k (Augustino's in Wichita, KS). The Brewhouse and Taproom were executed for $250,000, using a Blichman pro series 3BBL and Alpha Brew Ops Fermenters and Brite Tanks, and Glacier glycol. We had built the motorized grain mill and keg cleaner. The concern over selling to accounts was not the motivation, it was about selling in our four walls. And someone quoting $45, 000 for liability insurance is just someone trying to stop your dream. I would recommend you pay some money for course work, I personally have a certificate from Portland State University in the Business of Craft Beverage which is WAY more comprehensive than the Brewers Association's feeble book on opening a brewery. Based on the comments in this thread so far, it is evident the majority of those responding aren't interested in you succeeding in this venture as I read them and do not find how they match reality (or are just very extreme as to make it seem impossible). I spent four years researching, getting training, befriending other brewer's, and working for free brewing beer for one of them before jumping in. Good luck if you pursue it! To the nay-sayers, keep believing it's an impossibility! It's a freaking crowded field, and too many people get in not realizing how hard it is, and not doing enough research. I fall in to that later group.

Whoa, not pure BS and hyperbole....

$500k for a brewery is not far fetched, maybe a bit high. Yes, you can do it for around $250-$300k. But, you better want to work, and be willing to throw down buckets of elbow grease. And you really need to be lucky to find a location that suits a brewery decently well. And there are a lot of people that dont want to/have the skills to do that work. $500k is a pretty normal budget number to start a 7-10bbl brewery. If you want to go 3bbl, $250-$300k sounds about right, or maybe even a little less than that. But you will be doing a lot of work, hoping nothing goes wrong, making decisions on stuff because of the money, not because of what you actually want or need, and your butt will probably be puckered until you get your beer sales going.

And, just my personal opinion maybe, but if you want to be very successful in this, you cannot operate on a 3bbl for an extended period of time. ANY success, and you will be brewing 5-6 times per week, or more, just to try to keep up. 3bbl can feed restaurant/pub beer sales, but is not large enough to keep up with inside and outside demand. But, this is getting off topic from what OP was after.

Also, insurance being $45,000 a year is wayyyy too much. I got a quote from Nationwide for Gen liab, Liquor liab, Business auto, Commercial property, and Workman's comp. It was like $450 per month.

Dont mean to be negative, just mean to be realistic.

 

[Hoppy2bmerry]

I get that, but why not then laws governing sanitation etc. in selling baked goods???
Again, you can get sick, really sick from eating contaminated food, obviously. But you cannot get sick from beer, even if contaminated. You would basically have to literally add something bad to your beer in order to make someone sick.
Making beer/wine is inherently safe simply because of the low ph in beer/wine, and of course - alcohol.
The point I am making, is drinking home brew beer is monumentally safer than eating food made who knows where, sitting who knows where and who knows how long.
You tell me whose area/practices are cleaner - an experienced home brewer, or any Tom, Dick or Mary who decides to sell food? In Indiana, along with numerous other states, there are exactly zero regulations on selling baked goods. You are only required to label what it is. ex: "Banana Bread".
"Cottage Foods" are essentially almost unregulated. Yet there is 1,000 times the risk than that of consuming home brew.

Of course, rules vary from state to state, and I can only coment about my own local, where participants in “farmer’s markets“ are in business and meet licensing requirements for what they sell. The baked goods are from a health department approved bakery etc.
in my state the only place you’d get home baked anything is a church bake sale, and maybe schools.
is “tiny” smaller than “Nano”?

 

[Curtis K.]

Whoa, not pure BS and hyperbole....

Hey MMP126, I think you miss-read what BuzzedBomber was saying. He said he did open a brewery and restaurant for $500K in response to someone else saying you needed $1-2 million.

 

[BuzzedBomber]

Whoa, not pure BS and hyperbole....

$500k for a brewery is not far fetched, maybe a bit high. Yes, you can do it for around $250-$300k. But, you better want to work, and be willing to throw down buckets of elbow grease. And you really need to be lucky to find a location that suits a brewery decently well. And there are a lot of people that dont want to/have the skills to do that work. $500k is a pretty normal budget number to start a 7-10bbl brewery. If you want to go 3bbl, $250-$300k sounds about right, or maybe even a little less than that. But you will be doing a lot of work, hoping nothing goes wrong, making decisions on stuff because of the money, not because of what you actually want or need, and your butt will probably be puckered until you get your beer sales going.

And, just my personal opinion maybe, but if you want to be very successful in this, you cannot operate on a 3bbl for an extended period of time. ANY success, and you will be brewing 5-6 times per week, or more, just to try to keep up. 3bbl can feed restaurant/pub beer sales, but is not large enough to keep up with inside and outside demand. But, this is getting off topic from what OP was after.

Also, insurance being $45,000 a year is wayyyy too much. I got a quote from Nationwide for Gen liab, Liquor liab, Business auto, Commercial property, and Workman's comp. It was like $450 per month.

Dont mean to be negative, just mean to be realistic.

Huh? Did you even read the thread and understand what my comments were in response to? Where's the down-vote button?

 

[Jtvann]

I'm going to have to go back and read this entire thread. Crunching the numbers, selling a micro amount wont really net profit. That said, I enjoy the process of brewing. Since I stepped up to 10 gallon batches, ai o ly get to brew once every 2 months. Maybe once a month rarely. I do like it when people drink and love my beer. I get comments all the time that they cant find things similar to what I brew.

I live in a very remote area without a good beer selection. Theres also a very small tourist base in the summer. If it meant that I could brew more often just to give it away I would. I'm not willing to pay for ingredients though just to mass give it away to strangers. I do give away as much as friends could ever want.

Weve got one of these microscopic farmers markets every saturday. Like 6 or less sellers. I know my beer would sell if I could. If I could break even on the ingredient cost, just so I could brew more, I would.

I also dont want to go down in batch size, as I enjoy my process as is. I'd only ever want to scale up.

 

[BuzzedBomber]

I live in a very remote area without a good beer selection. Theres also a very small tourist base in the summer. If it meant that I could brew more often just to give it away I would. I'm not willing to pay for ingredients though just to mass give it away to strangers. I do give away as much as friends could ever want.

Weve got one of these microscopic farmers markets every saturday. Like 6 or less sellers. I know my beer would sell if I could. If I could break even on the ingredient cost, just so I could brew more, I would.

Depending on your Alcohol Control Board, County and even City regulations, you might be stymied trying to sell off prem (premise). There is a LOT of research to do at the Federal, State, County and Municipality level to ensure you are in compliance. Often, you can get permission for Events, which you may be able to identify the Farmer's Market as being assuming you have a main locale for sales. Again, every place is different, and the research into it is what will be required. Something you probably could get away with is selling non-alcoholic beer, it's becoming a real thing, but you'd have to identify if you needed to call it something other than beer in order to be in compliance. I imagine you'd have a heck of a time marketing it, but probably would start going down the path of trying to describe to customers the process for making it and the benefit of not having alcohol... Doing so only to promote your ultimate goal of having "the good stuff" once you have a committed following for what you can sell. Might help get you capital from investors (if you're willing to bring them on). There are MANY possibilities on how to get into this. The quickest is to have a LOT of money and no need for bankers.