Yeast Washing Illustrated

[Hegh]

I am unlikely to wash yeast from the batch I will be making this weekend, as it will be my first (although it does sound tempting...), but I was curious about the generation limit.

Basically, it doesn't make sense to me why yeast would become worse at the job they have been doing over time; it seems like as you use a strain of yeast through more generations, especially if you are always brewing the same recipe with it, it should actually get better at the job.

However, I can understand that as you continue moving material from each batch to the next you are more likely to pick up and transfer other organisms which may not be desirable.

So I'm wondering, in this very long-winded post, does the yeast actually mutate over time? Or is it really just an infection growing in the sample? It seems awfully unlikely that enough of the billions of yeast cells would alter their processes to the point of changing the flavor of the brew.

Sorry for the long-windedness...

 

[kappclark]

I have read that yeast will eventually mutate, and become something quite different than what you started with ...

I have re-used yeast 3 times with success...others go longer of course..

somewhere there is a discussion on this ..

I see you are in Albany area .. welcome aboard..

 

[GroovePuppy]

I think even if it doesn't mutate per se (which I believe it does however) you're not always taking a random sample. When you take from the trub in primary you are not getting the ones in suspension which obviously have different characteristics (or they wouldn't be in suspension). You're always going to be sampling off to one side of the distribution. Your beer style will probably promote a sub-group within the strain over another due to nutritional variance.

 

[Hegh]

I think even if it doesn't mutate per se (which I believe it does however) you're not always taking a random sample. When you take from the trub in primary you are not getting the ones in suspension which obviously have different characteristics (or they wouldn't be in suspension). You're always going to be sampling off to one side of the distribution. Your beer style will probably promote a sub-group within the strain over another due to nutritional variance.

That makes a bit more sense, I can understand why it could be called a 'mutation,' although it is really more of a selective breeding of strains that may not be desirable.

I wonder how the labs grow their yeast to always be consistent?

 

[GroovePuppy]

OK, time for some number crunching.

Wyeasts web site suggests 40-60% yeast solids in slurry is around 1.2 billion cells per ml. Looking at the description and pictures on their site what this means is that a container where 40-60% is yeast sediment is 1.2 billion cells per ml. That's a really crappy way of saying that yeast sediment is ~2.4billion cells per ml. Funnily enough that's the default in Mr Malty for slurry! I'll take that as confirmation. :rockin:

Wyeast Laboratories : Commercial : Breweries : Technical Information : Yeast Harvesting

I estimated the amount in each of my jars (by filling an empty jar with water to the same level) and got 27ml and 28ml for each of the two tests. I think with the small amount lost to transferring from the jar to a bowl so I could syringe it and measure, that 30ml is a reasonable estimate.

I'm planning on Hob Goblin for my next batch which has an estimated OG of 1.056. If I plug that into Mr Malty in the "pitch from slurry" section and I assume 2.4bill/ml and no non-yeast solids ('cos I washed it so well:cross it says I need 83mls of slurry for the required 195 billion cells.

From Wyeast my sample of 30ml = 72billion cells
From Mr Malty I need 83mls = 195billion cells

According to Wyeast their "Propagator" pack has 25billion cells for pitching to a 1liter starter that will do a 5gallon batch up to 1.060. Seems like one of my jars to a 1liter starter is plenty. They claim that the "Activator" pack at 100billion cells is enough to straight pitch. I think I'll try a starter from a single jar for my next brew.

I'm taking no account of aging however. Mr Malty gets really pessimistic on the shelf life of harvested yeasties when compared to the findings of the OP. I'll see how the first try goes and take it from there.

You guys with half a pint of slurry (236ml) might need to consider that you probably have enough for at least two batches with no starter! Assuming it's well washed and only yeast that is.

 

[dp69_2001]

That makes a bit more sense, I can understand why it could be called a 'mutation,' although it is really more of a selective breeding of strains that may not be desirable.

I wonder how the labs grow their yeast to always be consistent?

So, in a sense it would be something more like a micro evolution. You aren't going to experience any drastic changes. Feel free to experiment. I'm sure that within that 8 generation boundaries you won't end up with ruined beer that you can blame on the yeast (unless of course in the event of an infection).

There are some aspects of homebrewing where there are no definite answers and you are advised to find what's best for you. At a homebrew level I generally don't worry about overpitching (and I've heard most homebrewers don't either). It would be difficult at this level to drastically overpitch. Your 5 oz. of slurry will probably not hurt your beer. But hell, I'm a noob too. I don't know anything.

 

[G-E-R-M-A-N]

So where is everybody getting the larger mason jar from without having to buy a pack of 12 or large amount? I am looking to do this tomorrow, and have the smaller jars already.

 

[WortMonger]

You can use a glass pitcher with foil wrapped on top of it. Fill it full of a as much water as you need and cover it with foil. Put it in a pressure canner or cooker and fire it up for 30 minutes at 15 psi. Let it cool and open the lid. Then use it as you would the large jar.

 

[Bigsnake]

So where is everybody getting the larger mason jar from without having to buy a pack of 12 or large amount? I am looking to do this tomorrow, and have the smaller jars already.

Last time I was at World Market they had canning kits with 2 or 4 large jars in it. I ended up just getting a big 12 pack and I just sanitize them all at once and have a stock of them in the fridge ready to go.

 

[twig]

So where is everybody getting the larger mason jar from without having to buy a pack of 12 or large amount? I am looking to do this tomorrow, and have the smaller jars already.

yard sale or thrift store.

 

[jgull8502]

Sorry if this has already been asked in this thread... I've read through most of the posts at one point and can't recall it being mentioned.

Anyways, I want to wash the yeast from my brew that I just bottled, but I forgot to boil the water in the jars the night before. Instead of flushing the yeast down the drain, I sanitized my large jar, and just swished all the remaining liquid and yeast around in the bottom of the fermenter and poured it in.

Should I bother boiling the water and remixing it all with the yeast, or can I just wait until the yeast and trub separate and then pour off the yeast.

 

[Mustangj]

Yes... Look back at my pics. I did the same thing.

 

[planenut]

I've read all the way through here.. And washed my first batch of 1098.

Next up is a Blue Moon Clone.

What about wheat beer where the yeast stays suspended more. Do all the same techniques work?

 

[twig]

I've read all the way through here.. And washed my first batch of 1098.

Next up is a Blue Moon Clone.

What about wheat beer where the yeast stays suspended more. Do all the same techniques work?

The same method worked fine for me with a wit (Wyeast 3944). I harvested yeast back in August using the techniques from this thread, just pitched some of it in a new batch this weekend and had airlock activity within 12 hours.

One thing I noticed was that the starter took off like crazy - a 1 litre mason jar 3/4 full of starter, and the krausen blew the tinfoil right off the top of the jar - actually had chunks of krausen several inches away from the jar when I checked the next morning.

 

[GroovePuppy]

Used my first washed batch on Saturday, two weeks since harvesting. I had about a 1/4" on the bottom of the jar.

Left it out on Tuesday to warm up, poured off most of the liquid and swirled it all up. Added to a 2L soda bottle with 1/2 cup of DME in a pint of water (boiled wort) and shook the snot out of it regularly. Refrigerated Thursday, poured most of the wort off Friday and added a second pint of wort. Shook the whole thing Saturday and pitched to Hob Goblin. Sunday morning bubbling away nice. This morning it's farting like crazy. :rockin:

 

[planenut]

The same method worked fine for me with a wit (Wyeast 3944). I harvested yeast back in August using the techniques from this thread, just pitched some of it in a new batch this weekend and had airlock activity within 12 hours.

Cool, 3944 is exactly the one I used a couple weeks ago. Once it has finished, I will be harvesting it as well.

Thanks

 

[solstice]

Instead of starting a new thread, I have a few questions about this.
I just bottled my Kolsch yesterday and used WLP029. I racked from secondary so I'm guessing the yeast in the bottom were fairly spent. I made a gallon of starter wort and put it on top of the yeast cake and it's doing very nicely so far. Should I expect any problems getting healthy yeast out of there since I gave them some food? I want to say that they'll be fine since I just fed them but I've never really tried to wash yeast before.
Thanks!

 

[illnastyimpreza]

I really gotta do this next time...

 

[jgull8502]

I'm looking for some clarification on how to use the yeast I've saved from a few posts back. I just saved everything from the bottom of my fermenter in a large bottle. I didn't do any washing per se. Now I have about six inches of what I assume is a mixture of yeast and trub, and then liquid on the top.

I'm wondering what the best way to go about doing this would be.
Should I pour off the liquid, and mix the rest with sanitized water, let it settle and then pour off into mason jars. Would there be any downside to just dumping all of this sludge into the new fermenter with my beer? I'm going to be brewing a lighter beer with it now than I had before.

 

[portlandbeergeek]

I'd suggest dumping the water on top, topping off with pre-boiled cold water, allow to settle. before making your starter for the next batch, pour off the water and try to pitch just the yeast layer (top layer of sediment) into your starter wort.
and i've always found it's nice to have a packet of dry yeast on hand just in case

 

[FeedFwd]

Excellent presentation. My only quibble is that you can't be too sanitary. It would be best to remind people to wash their hands thoroughly, as if they were a surgeon, and even consider using sterile latex gloves.

 

[kdsarch]

I take it that you can still crash cool and harvest yeast. I have a beer in secondary that i was planning on crash cooling in a few days. I assume that after the crash cooling is complete, that i will still be able to harvest the yeast. Is that correct?

Thanks

 

[portlandbeergeek]

yes, but from what I"ve read the yeast in the primary is much more healthy. Yeast from the secondary is still good, but be sure to make a big starter before pitching to ensure a healthy fermentation!

Again....this is just what i"ve read, I've never actually harvested yeast from secondary.

 

[humann_brewing]

I am thinking of doing this with some S-04 I have fermenting right now, but I was wondering:

When I want to use it in the future, instead of a starter, could I just pull off some of the wort after the boil that has cooled down and pitch it into the wort in a sanitized container and let it work its magic for a little while before pitching into the fermentor?

I did this with a the original dry pack of S-04 and seemed to work out really well. I pulled some of the wort that had cooled to 80 degrees and put it into a sanitized tupperware and pitched the yeast and let it sit for 30 minutes or so until it looked like a nice slurry and pitched it.

 

[fratermus]

I bought a box of old issues of Brewing Techniques and there was an article about storing yeast cells in sterile distilled water.* Theoretically viability can be preserved at room temps for > 1yr.

I dropped some yeast off a plate into 6 vials (3 distilled, 3 filtered) over the weekend and will streak them out in 1/6/12months to check viability.

Further reading on this matter about halfway down this mushroom page.



Frater Mus
* March/April 1997 Brewing Techniques. "A Simple, Practical Method for Long_Term Storage of Yeast", by Michael D. Graham.

 

[BrewDey]

I've done this with a few strains, and it's been a great help (thanks!)
I'm wondering though, if there is ever a time period after which I should not use the washed yeast. I've had some in the fridge for about a year, and I'd rather spend the extra $ than risk it. THoughts?

 

[remilard]

I've done this with a few strains, and it's been a great help (thanks!)
I'm wondering though, if there is ever a time period after which I should not use the washed yeast. I've had some in the fridge for about a year, and I'd rather spend the extra $ than risk it. THoughts?

2 weeks is what most of the yeast vendors recommend as an upper end for reusing yeast. In a commercial setting, the longest they typically go is 3 days from harvesting (Friday to Monday) so keep that in mind when people say "commercial breweries do it all the time".

If you need to keep yeast around for a few months, I recommend learning to make slants and propagate from them (not that hard). If you need to keep it around for a year or two, sterile water as per a couple posts above is best. If you want to keep a single culture longer than that you need cryogenic storage facilities. You can plate and restore yeast until the day you die, the storage medium just dictates how frequently you have to do it (3-6 months for slants, 1-2 years for sterile water).

All that said, unless you enjoy yeast culturing as a hobby, just buy more yeast and try to plan to reuse it ASAP if at all.

 

[WPStrassburg]

What happens if i let things settle for more than 20 minutes in the fermenter or big mason jar? Will too many of the yeast settle out or do the good yeast stay in suspension longer. Has anyone found a optimum time for yeast/trub separation, or is 20 good enough? If i use boiled reverse osmosis and deionized water will i get better results than just boiling tap water? My fishies get super clean water so will it help my yeasties?
-Walter

 

[Skipstr21]

Just a comment...I've washed WLP 001 Cali Ale and WLP 023 Burton Ale using the process illustrated. I have noticed a HUGE difference in my starters. The washed yeast starts much faster and has a 2-3 inch kreusen while the staters from White Labs vials barely have a kreusen at all. They both work fine but the washed yeast just seems so much more active and healthy than the vials, even after 4-6 months. White Labs recommends a 1 qt/3oz DME starter for 4-6 hours prior to pitching. I usually let starter sit for 24-36 hours.

 

[kappclark]

I have only made 3 starters in 3 years , but each time, I do notice much faster fermentation ...

This seems SOOO 101 in brewing ... I do believe in starters.