Yeast Starters....Just starting and ordered some things

[deuc224]

Damn I like hearing everyones method and reasons for doing what they do. Me, I get a pack of yeast and make a .8L starter for it, let it got for 24hrs then fridge and decant. Then use that to make 2L starter, run it for 24hrs and fridge and decant into a separatory flask. Once it sits for 24 in the separatory the yeast collects at the bottom and wort on top. I pull 25ml of yeast and 25ml of glycerin solution into 50ml vial and put them in alcohol to freeze slow for 24 hrs, then take them out and store in the freezer. One pack of yeast with this method lets me make about 6 packs of yeast, I dont do it to save money, i do it to have yeast on hand whenever i need it because i brew a lot at the sput of the monemt and it hasnt failed my yet. i do want a biger separatory flask though lol.

Also doing step starters vs one big starter will give you more yeast cells.

 

[fendersrule]

that was fast! I used tap water instead of bottled water by accident though. Not going to worry about it.

 

[fendersrule]

Welp, I've already picked up another recipe. For this one, it's time to dive into the deep end. Let me first try using some fuzzy math. Let me know what your guys's calculator says.

I want to use 1 pack of liquid yeast. It's pretty fresh..assume 96% viability.

The OG is going to be 1.100. Yes, it's a Russian Imperial Stout, and 6 Gallons of it.

Mr. Malty says if using 1 pack, then I'm going to want 3.88L worth of starter. I think that basically means 3 steps of starter (4 total).

Create starter. Let it go for 24 hours, cold crash, decant, then fill it up with another Propper starter + water + nutrients. Then do it again. Then do it one more time.

Do I have this down correctly?

I'm wondering if my 2L flask will handle that....what do you guys think?

May be a good time to break out the Wine Growler.

 

[VikeMan]

Mr. Malty says if using 1 pack, then I'm going to want 3.88L worth of starter. I think that basically means 3 steps of starter (4 total).

Create starter. Let it go for 24 hours, cold crash, decant, then fill it up with another Propper starter + water + nutrients. Then do it again. Then do it one more time.

4 one liter steps will not net you the same cell count as one 4 liter starter. You could do this as a one step 4-ish L starter (as was recommended by Mr. Malty) if you had a 5L flask. Or, with your 2L flask, you could do a 1L starter and step up to a ~1.4L starter. (But watch your headspace on the second step.)

If you want to do multi-step starters, you should use a calculator that supports them. I believe YeastCalc does. BrewCipher definitely does.

 

[kmarkstevens]

I have used a stir plate for many years but not scientifically. Typically, I'll make a 2 liter starter multiple days in advance, pour about 1.7 liters as a pitch, add in more starter, ferment out, cold crash, pour off liquid with about 300 ml remaining, and then pour that into 100ml centrifugal tubes. I'll pitch from a centrifugal tube that has settled maybe half full into new ferments. I typically do 1030 or 1040 OG worts, and combined with my palate is completely adequate for my beers.

Just to throw out an alternative idea. I picked up a fastfermenter 3 gallon conical a couple of months ago. I find a 1030-1040 OG bitter, yields an 8oz canning jar of trub/yeast. Decant that into centrifugal tubes with a bit of sterilized water or into 4oz canning jars. Much better yield than the erlenmeyer.

WARNING: My palate is not very sensitive to diacetyl or DMS. Your mileage may vary.

 

[fendersrule]

4 one liter steps will not net you the same cell count as one 4 liter starter. You could do this as a one step 4-ish L starter (as was recommended by Mr. Malty) if you had a 5L flask. Or, with your 2L flask, you could do a 1L starter and step up to a ~1.4L starter. (But watch your headspace on the second step.)

If you want to do multi-step starters, you should use a calculator that supports them. I believe YeastCalc does. BrewCipher definitely does.

So two step is all I need?

I’m still very sure that 1G jug will work. But I’d still like the challenge of using one pack.
Give me a step by step with either the 2L flask and or the 4L jug to super charge this heavy wort...

 

[VikeMan]

I’m still very sure that 1G jug will work. But I’d still like the challenge of using one pack.
Give me a step by step with either the 2L flask and or the 4L jug to super charge this heavy wort...

1) Step 1: 1 Liter Stir Plate Starter
2) When Step 1 is finished (attenuated), cold crash and decant.
3) Step 2: Add 1.4 Liters wort, return to Stir Plate
4) When step 2 is finished (attenuated), cold crash, decant, and pitch into your beer wort.

 

[hawaiibrewer]

Take tip from Gordon Strong's book, "Brewing better Beer". Keep it simple and don't over think it. He's president of BJCP and past AHA Ninkasi award winner. 1 liter starter, 3 oz DME, 1/4 t yeast nutrient, 1 qt water, boil for 15 min. Cool and pitch yeast and let it go until brew day, poor off the spent wort then pitch it into your fresh wort on brew day. He uses a stir plate. I used to just make a starter in an old growler, shake it now and then, pitch it on brew day. I learned this from my local brewing "mentor" who was the AHA brewer of the year. Rod was certainly a believer in KISS. I now more or less use Strong's tips with a homemade stir plate.

 

[VikeMan]

Take tip from Gordon Strong's book, "Brewing better Beer". Keep it simple and don't over think it. He's president of BJCP and past AHA Ninkasi award winner. 1 liter starter, 3 oz DME, 1/4 t yeast nutrient, 1 qt water, boil for 15 min.

For what size batch, what gravity, and what beer type (ale/lager)? If Gordon actually says that one size fits all, he's completely ignoring inoculation rates.

ETA: I just realized I have that book, so I looked it up. The above starter process is given as an example. He goes on to discuss what to do for higher gravity beers, stepped starters, etc. Not in great detail, but he does recognize that one size does not fit all.

 

[IslandLizard]

Wow, I missed this thread somehow, just stumbled upon it.

@fendersrule, not sure I mentioned this in one of your other threads, but I would recommend using a different yeast calculator than Mr.Malty:
BrewUnited's Yeast Calculator

It's much easier to see what's going on. Some fields do populate automatically, so you may need to check and correct some of them to suit your purpose.

It's so friggin' easy to make starter wort, I can't see buying $$$ canned starter wort being much of an advantage.
A 3 pound (1360 gr) bag of Pilsen Light DME at $15 makes 13.6 liters of 1.037 starter wort (1:10).
That's enough for almost 7 2-liter starters.

Use a kitchen pot with a well fitting lid (stainless preferred) on the kitchen stove. After the boil, cover with sanitized lid, and let it chill in a sink or a plastic dish wash tub with cold water. You'll need to refresh the water once or twice to get the pot down to room temps. Just feel with your hands. Takes about an hour or less in total. You can add an ice pack to the tub or sink to speed up the temp drop for the last 30-50 degrees.

Meanwhile, clean, then soak, or fill your flask with Starsan.
Pour the wort directly into your flask. Use a sanitized (brew) funnel.
You know the rest.

 

[fendersrule]

1) Step 1: 1 Liter Stir Plate Starter
2) When Step 1 is finished (attenuated), cold crash and decant.
3) Step 2: Add 1.4 Liters wort, return to Stir Plate
4) When step 2 is finished (attenuated), cold crash, decant, and pitch into your beer wort.

Thanks for this. I started playing around iwth some step calculators. Every one is a bit different.

I'm calculating needing a 1.0 Pitch Rate being that this is high gravity. I'm also assuming 92 Billion initial cell count. Fresh, but not right off the press fresh.

I basically went to a few sites and plugged in what you added.

MoreBeer says I need 540 billion cells. At the end of the second step I would have 509 billion.

BrewersFriend says I need 540 billion cells as well. They say at the end of the second step I'd have 392 billion.

@IslandLizard, I input this information in brewunited and it's pretty darn close to BrewersFriend's output. One thing I don't like about this calculator is that you cannot have seperate starter details per each step. No like-y on that.

I think I'm going to need a bigger starter here....

 

[VikeMan]

I'm calculating needing a 1.0 Pitch Rate being that this is high gravity. I'm also assuming 92 Billion initial cell count. Fresh, but not right off the press fresh.

By 1.0 pitch rate, do you mean 1M per ml per degree plato? If so, keep in mind that the "per degree plato" part of that already accounts for high gravity. A more "standard" 0.75 M per ml per degree plato ale rate may be just fine. That said, I do pitch my Imperial Stouts a bit higher.

 

[fendersrule]

Looks like that's what it means. Just to stick with Brewer's friend for now, the resulting pitch of doing a 1L, 1.4L, 2-step starter would result in .73M cells per degree plato for 6 Gallons of 1.100 OG.

This may be a good time to break out the DME for this one as using Propper Starter could get expensive. I think this beer also requires breaking out the 1G Vessel for a starter.

The calculator supports this as being a healthy pitch:

1L, 2L = .94M Cells per degree plato.

 

[IslandLizard]

I think this beer also requires breaking out the 1G Vessel for a starter.

You'd need a pretty strong stir plate to stir 4-5 liter starter batches.
Since you do 10 gallon batches, having 2 stir plates may be better than one.
That will also give you more versatility than one large starter vessel.

Don't know about you, I can't put a 5 gallon flask in my kitchen fridge without removing a shelf, which would cause other issues. And I'm in charge of the kitchen...
But two 2-liter flasks (or gallon jugs) fit nicely in the milk tray, side by side, with a piece of foam between them to prevent kissing.

 

[fendersrule]

Looks like she fits just fine.
There won’t be 4-5L in it though.

decanted 1L (I don’t know what would this be about 300ML?) + 2L, so about 2.5L or so maximum that needs to be stirred.

Here's a review showing a guy stiring 4000ML of liquid with the small StirStarter. I should be good to go. Hands on Review: StirStarter Stir Plate!

And yes, I'm still working on that damn wine. I drank what I could in the past couple nights.

 

[fendersrule]

Here's my current 1L Starter after 24 hours. I'd like to get this in the fridge soon for tomorrow's 3PM pitching. My original schedule had me keeping it on the stirrer until 10PM tonight (another 7 hours).

I can easily and clearly see that there are lots of yeasties in suspension.

 

[Golddiggie]

Welp, I've already picked up another recipe. For this one, it's time to dive into the deep end. Let me first try using some fuzzy math. Let me know what your guys's calculator says.

I want to use 1 pack of liquid yeast. It's pretty fresh..assume 96% viability.

The OG is going to be 1.100. Yes, it's a Russian Imperial Stout, and 6 Gallons of it.

Mr. Malty says if using 1 pack, then I'm going to want 3.88L worth of starter. I think that basically means 3 steps of starter (4 total).

Create starter. Let it go for 24 hours, cold crash, decant, then fill it up with another Propper starter + water + nutrients. Then do it again. Then do it one more time.

Do I have this down correctly?

I'm wondering if my 2L flask will handle that....what do you guys think?

May be a good time to break out the Wine Growler.

You know what they about assumption, right?? It's the mother of all f*ckups.

I never assume viability when it comes to my yeasties. It's easy enough to enter the dates from the packs (even when Wyeast has changed HOW they mark them, just -6 months from the date on the pack now). I also tend to move the date according to when I'll be brewing, since it's NOT the day I run the numbers. Which means I shift it back a week, or two. While that probably doesn't make that much of a difference, I still do it often enough. That might be getting a bit too much into the weeds, but I've not had a bad experience/batch when doing it.

As for using your tap water in the starter, do try NOT to do that in the future. Especially if you're on city water since it WILL have chlorine in it. IMO, any amount of chlorine in a batch is too much. I've been fortunate in that I've always had ways to remove that from my brewing water, when it's present. I'd advise getting one of the better under sink filtering systems readily available that removes chlorine, as well as other negative items, from your water. The better ones come with easy to change filter cartridges (mine has three) and a spigot that goes into the sink (mine was installed to the left of the faucet area). The one I have runs under $220 on Amazon (Watts Premier 531130 Filter-Pure UF-3 3-Stage Water Filtration System - WQA Certified - Undersink Water Filtration Systems - Amazon.com). I paid $150 back in March of 2014 for mine.

 

[Golddiggie]

Here's my current 1L Starter after 24 hours. I'd like to get this in the fridge soon for tomorrow's 3PM pitching. My original schedule had me keeping it on the stirrer until 10PM tonight (another 7 hours).

I can easily and clearly see that there are lots of yeasties in suspension.
View attachment 706626

I always wait until it's 100% done before cold crashing it for 24-48 hours (even with high flocculation yeast). That starter doesn't look done yet. The foam will go away and, depending on the strain, you'll see large clumps of yeast spinning around in the flask.

BTW, the foam stoppers might be a contributing factor for why mine tend to finish quickly (<24 hours for fresh yeast, often <18 hours for the second or third step). Since it allows a LOT of gas exchange between the starter wort and the atmosphere without any risk of nasties coming inside. They're cheap too. Although they don't seem as good as the ones I have from years back. Trying to find the larger ones that are stiffer compared with the new ones I picked up. I have put the older ones through several PBW/Starsan cycles without issue. Did that with a newer one and after the second use it was falling apart. They keep making things cheaper and cheaper.

 

[fendersrule]

Yea. I was about to dump it yesterday, but members in my beer club told me I'm fine and to stop worrying about it. and dumping it would be stupid since our water is pretty decent. The funny thing is that I bought a 6-pack of spring water bottles JUST for this. I even had it sitting on the counter right next to me when I was making a starter. Duh. I'll be fine, but yes in the future I plan to use water bottles.

Wyeast is definitely not exactly +6 months as I learned a few days ago (see other post). I got a package that was marked "Best by May xx", which would be impossible because that's over 6 months out. WTF.

Either way, I'm assuming 91% variability for the second larger starter that I'm making soon (Has a best by mid April date), and I'm assuming 98% viability for the one I'm currently making (which is the one that doesn't make sense...must be very new). Doesn't matter too much either way for this one because the OG is going to be around 1.059-1.061 so it will be plenty!

I'd like a whole-house system because I pull my water from an outside facet when I brew.

 

[fendersrule]

I always wait until it's 100% done before cold crashing it for 24-48 hours (even with high flocculation yeast). That starter doesn't look done yet. The foam will go away and, depending on the strain, you'll see large clumps of yeast spinning around in the flask.

Thanks for the info. Do you have pictures of what it should look like? I'm hoping in 7 more hours it will be done. If worst comes to worst I can just leave it on the stir plate for another night and not decant.

Brew day is definitely happening tomorrow regardless!

 

[Golddiggie]

I just use large graduated buckets (picked up from a restaurant supply place years ago) for the brew water. Fill in sink, bring to where I'm brewing and use where needed. That's one of the reasons I'm glad to have a "brew-bitch" currently (my nephew). He does all the heavy lifting. He's in his early 20's, and I'm 50, so he can do that crap. Plus he gets to clean out the mash tun each time. Along with most everything else.

I do need to clean out what the mocha porter was aging in soon. I need the extraction cap that's in it for moving the English barley wine I made back in 2014 into serving kegs. Still good and over 16% ABV.

 

[Golddiggie]

Thanks for the info. Do you have pictures of what it should look like? I'm hoping in 7 more hours it will be done. If worst comes to worst I can just leave it on the stir plate for another night and not decant.

Brew day is definitely happening tomorrow regardless!

I don't have any pictures of that effect happening at this point. I might have years back, but didn't keep them. No foam on the top of the starter is one clue. Another is when you turn it off it will start to flocculate pretty fast. You'll still want to let it condense down to the bottom.

This is why I begin my starters a week ahead of the expected brew day. Even if it's only a single step starter.

 

[Golddiggie]

There's also been plenty of information out over the years about how too many "spring water" bottles are really just filled from a tap (not an actual spring or clean/untreated source). I'd trust water filtered on site FAR sooner than anything bottled. It also doesn't take many gallons through the filter system to get it to pay for itself compared with buying water.

 

[fendersrule]

Sounds good. So the foam on the top should go away...that should be one clue. Moving clumps of yeast is another clue (may not be true for all yeast?).

I don't think it's possible to see flocculation while the stir plate is on. I'd imagine I'd see that right now if I were to turn it off.

I'll leave it running and check back in with you guys tonight.

I read that some people pitch at high krausen. Interesting.

 

[Golddiggie]

I crash and condense my starter so that I'm left with only a small amount of starter wort going into my brew. It might be overkill and larger amounts might not impact the recipe. But, I've had great results with this method. So, if it works, do it. If you were making a 1bbl (or larger) batch size, the impact would be minute.

 

[fendersrule]

Is there a certain minimal time for cold crashing in order to do a successful decant? For example, is it worth doing if I could only cold crash for 14 hours?

I'd suspect the answer is "probably" and "yes" in my case, being that this starter is probably overkill for 5 gallons of 1.059. Loosing a little more yeast than normal from a "quick" cold crash will be neglable in my case since I really don't need every yeastie to have a super healthy pitch for this one.

 

[Golddiggie]

Depends on the yeast strain. I don't see you posting which yeast you made the starter with. High flocculation rated yeast will settle out a lot faster than medium, or low, rated yeasts. Most of the time when I use a high rated strain, it's good in about 24 hours. Since I tend to use 1335 for most of my brews (at least for the ones that benefit from it's character) it's never been an issue. Even the rare 1881-PC is rated as 'high'. As is 1728. I think the only one I've used that's NOT rated 'high' was 1098 (medium rating).

 

[fendersrule]

Yep...I'm using 1098....

 

[Golddiggie]

With 1098, I doubt it will fully settle overnight. Safer to let it have either a full 24 or even 48 hours to condense down. I'd move my brew day to next weekend if I was you, Why rush things and run the chance of getting something not as good as you could??

 

[fendersrule]

Or just don't decant....

.25 Gallons in a 5 Gallon batch is probably not going to be noticeable. If I choose to hold true to the brew day. That's about 5% of the batch.

Interesting experiment. http://brulosophy.com/2016/10/10/decanted-vs-full-yeast-starter-exbeeriment-results/