yeast/recipe questions

[sky4meplease]

So you don't think wyeast packs need a starter?

How old are they?

If they are relatively fresh Wyeast says one pack is good for 5 gallons of 1060 wort correct?
Might be another good reason to take the OG down to 1075.
Warm those packs up well ahead of time and smack them good to mix in the nutrient pack inside. Let them swell for 3-4 hours at 75 degrees and pitch them into the same temperature wort.
When you re-aerate at 12 hours start to bring the temperature down to fermentation temperature around 68-70 for that strain.
If the yeast is older than a month, you will have trouble aerating or keeping fermentation temperatures high enough then yes I would recommend making a starter.
If that is the case I would make a 1.5 liter starter with the older of the two packs, cold crash and decant and pitch that with the fresher pack into your wort.
The reason I would do it that way is you will actually build some yeast with one pack into the starter rather than two packs. Two packs into a 1500ml starter is "saturated" and will revive the yeast but won't be enough starter wort to build or multiply yeast. That said if you can do a 3 liter starter then pitch both packs into it.

 

[IslandLizard]

I've reread your OP and some of the replies. It got a bit confusing of what you actually have on hand, yeast-wise.

It appears you have 2 White Labs WLP008 PurePitch packages, and no WYeast (1318).

You definitely need to make a starter with those, as there's no way of telling how many cells are in those 2 sleeves, between 60 and 120 billion each, on date of packaging. It's been downhill from there.

I guess you don't have a stir plate (yet) or a 2l flask. No need to rush into buying those things, you only started out recently. A larger kettle would probably more important. Be on the lookout for a 10 gallon one (Craigslist).

Do you have 2 large 64 ounce glass jars, such as pickle jars? Or one or two 1 gallon or 1/2 gallon jugs? They can be used to make yeast starters. Allow 5 days to a week to make enough yeast before you brew your 1.075 OG beer.

If you don't have any jars or jugs already, 1 gallon jugs come in handy, so I would go for 2 of that size.

I don't know how close you are to your LHBS, but a small 1 oz bottle of Fermcap-S will come in handy to prevent excessive foaming and blow-offs of your yeast starters. For your starters you can pilfer some of your recipe's LME. Most of us use DME for starters as its shelf life is longer, but LME works just as well.

 

[tjm02c]

Just seeing these last two posts and have some updates. I ended up getting two packs of wyeast 1318 (was going to get three, but the guy at LHBS said two should be fine for a 1.080 brew). They're both dated 11/20. Do you think those two without starters with be adequate? I don't have a stir plate (is the hype on those legit?) or a 2L flask, but I've got some 64oz growlers. The main reason I would prefer to not to a starter is bc I was hoping to brew tomorrow and from everything I've read that doesn't seem like enough time for a starter. I still have the WLP008 pack that I figured I could pitch in a day or two if the fermentation seemed weak, but idk how great of an idea that is since it'll be mixing yeast strains and not sure if pitching additional yeast late is a good idea.

 

[sky4meplease]

You will be fine.
The 1318 though attenuated up to 75% is a high flocculant yeast meaning it may settle out early and leave your beer a little sweet.
You could pitch two 1318 and one 008?
The 008 is medium/low flocculation so it may stay in suspension a little longer to help dry things out.
You can break into starters down the road.
Have fun tomorrow!

 

[tjm02c]

Well I guess it'll be a gametime decision tomorrow whether I pitch two or three. Either way thanks for all the advice!

 

[Sadu]

In my experience, a starter for any amount of time is helpful. If you make a small starter while heating your water then that is 3-5 hours of extra happiness for the yeast. In my experience this helps. It is better to start a few days early but if you don't have time for that then the yeast will still benefit from a quick starter in a mason jar.

 

[IslandLizard]

In my experience, a starter for any amount of time is helpful. If you make a small starter while heating your water then that is 3-5 hours of extra happiness for the yeast. In my experience this helps. It is better to start a few days early but if you don't have time for that then the yeast will still benefit from a quick starter in a mason jar.

Absolutely true!

Like what Brulosopher calls a "Vitality Starter."
It doesn't get cold crashed and decanted, it gets pitched whole. The yeast is as vital as can be, ready to go.

Use one smack pack per growler.
Fill each growler half way with wort, put the screw lid on and shake well. Let sit for a short while to stabilize, slowly ease the lid a bit to let off excess pressure, let sit more. Repeat the shaking every 1/2 hour to an hour to incorporate as much oxygen in the wort as possible.

Needless to say, use impeccable sanitation.

 

[tjm02c]

So for 64oz of wort between the two growlers I should boil about 35-40oz of water and about a third of a pound of LME?

 

[flars]

So for 64oz of wort between the two growlers I should boil about 35-40oz of water and about a third of a pound of LME?

Maintain a 10:1 ratio for starters for an optimum SG of about 1.037 to 1.040. The ratio is basically 10 ounces of water to 1 ounce of DME. 30 ounces of water to 3 ounces of DME.

A starter/pitch rate calculator can come in handy. These are two good ones.
http://www.brewunited.com/yeast_calculator.php
http://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator/

Make sure you have room in the fermentor to pitch the entire starter wort. A blow off tube is the best insurance to prevent the air lock or lid hitting the ceiling under pressure from the krausen build up.

 

[sky4meplease]

For future reference if you go to the yeast manufacturers website you can find descriptions and vital statistics for the individual strains. This is helpful when building recipes to select the yeast or yeasts that will best compliment your brew. Information will include:
1)Flavor contributions
2)Ideal temperature range (fermenting too warm can produce off flavors and hot alcohols-fermenting too cold can stall your fermentation)
3)Alcohol tolerance (a maximum ABV the yeast will tolerate)
4)Attenuation(the average percentage of the starting gravity sugars the yeast will consume/higher attenuation typically means lower finish gravity or dryer less sweet finish-lower attenuation typically means higher finished gravity more body or sweeter finish)
5)Flocculation (this is how the yeast clump up and fall to the bottom of the fermentor/you will notice that higher flocculant yeast will have lower attenuation percentages and medium/low flocculant yeast will have higher attenuation percentages
6)Beer styles the yeast is typically used for.

One you have your recipe and chosen yeast to include Original Gravity (OG) and Finished Gravity (FG) you can do the math or use a Yeast Pitch Rate Calculator to determine how much yeast you need.
Now you can determine how much yeast to buy and what you will do to it to get it ready for brewing.
While you wrap your head around starters (there are do's and don'ts and different types) don't be afraid to buy an extra package or two. Your beer will thank you for it.

 

[tjm02c]

Thanks for the tips! Working on getting my starter set up now. Is there a calculation or something to determine yeast growth rates with starters? I'm assuming it could vary a lot, but is there a way to get a ballpark estimate?

 

[tjm02c]

Another stupid question. There fermenter bucket I have only has a little hole for the airlock, if I were to use a blow-off do I need to cut a bigger hole or do they have lids with a half inch hole in it already?

 

[tjm02c]

I actually just took out the little plastic thing in the hole and it's big enough to fit my tube I use for racking (prob about a third of an inch). Is that big enough? The tube has a little bit of open space left around it in the hole, is that an issue?

 

[sky4meplease]

You can use the calculators to try to get close.
There is a wide variation in growth models.
My cell counts tell me they all estimate too high so I would suggest using the model with the least growth especially if your not using a stir plate.
Simply put if you add a lot of yeast to very little starter it is a "vitality" starter. You are waking up the yeast not building numbers. If you put very few yeast into a lot of starter wort you are making beer. You want somewhere in the middle around 40 million cells per milliliter. My cell counts tell me I get maximum growth in that area.
So take an educated guess or use the calculator to tell how much yeast you have-divide by 40 million and it will tell you how much starter to make.
Example and simplified.
60/40=1.5 multiply that by 1,000 = 1,500 milliliters
Another example say you did the above and got 150 billion cells as a result (as estimated by your calculator unless your counting cells under a microscope).
150/40=3.75x1,000=3,750ml
So as you step up you will have more cells and need more starter wort to compensate.
Cold crash well and decant between steps, try to acclimate the yeast any chance you can so you don't shock them and stay sanitary my friend.

 

[sky4meplease]

Another stupid question. There fermenter bucket I have only has a little hole for the airlock, if I were to use a blow-off do I need to cut a bigger hole or do they have lids with a half inch hole in it already?

Good question.

The hops if left in the wort during fermentation can plug the tube if it's not big enough. You either need a bigger tube or strain the hops out going into the fermentor.
I would not use a tube that doesn't fit snugly into the hole.
Do you have a big strainer?
If you do strain the hops and use the smaller tube. Doing the strainer thing you can use a sanitized spoon to squeeze wort out of the hops minimizing wort loss.
If not you could let the hops settle in your brew kettle for a bit after the wort is cooled and rack the wort into the fermentor leaving the hops in the bottom of the kettle. You will probably waste more wort in this manner.

 

[sky4meplease]

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1483111940.390049.jpg

Or get the right sized tube to fit that grommet.

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1483112077.599279.jpg

I customize my bucket lids often. The hardware store sells many different rubber grommet sizes and the LHBS different stoppers. Makes it easier for dry hopping without removing the lid.

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1483112339.537775.jpg

 

[flars]

You can also use the main body of a three piece air lock for the blow off tube assembly.

 

[IslandLizard]

Do you have a big strainer?
If you do strain the hops and use the smaller tube. Doing the strainer thing you can use a sanitized spoon to squeeze wort out of the hops minimizing wort loss.
If not you could let the hops settle in your brew kettle for a bit after the wort is cooled and rack the wort into the fermentor leaving the hops in the bottom of the kettle. You will probably waste more wort in this manner.

Many ways to tackle this.

1. You can stick a fine mesh hop bag (LHBS sells those) in a strainer or colander and strain your wort through that. It should catch all hops and most break matter. The weave should be quite fine, with openings around 0.3-0.5 mm. Or buy some voile material in Walmart or Joann Fabrics.

2. After transferring most of the wort to your fermentor, you were going to top it off with cold water. Instead of topping off directly, you could use that water to rinse out that hoppy sludge left in the kettle, and transfer the now diluted wort to your fermentor too, with or without a strainer/bag. You'll get a more "quantitative" transfer of your precious wort that way.

As always, keep in mind, everything that touches your cooled wort needs to be clean and sanitized to ward off infections. Starsan is among the best and easiest to work with.

 

[flars]

I pour through a fine mesh bag to the fermentor to remove hop debris and break material. I pour from the boil kettle until it is just pure sludge left. I'll lift the mesh bag and hold it over the bucket to finish draining into the fermentor.

 

[tjm02c]

Updates:

-i bought a 5/8th inch tube that fits perfectly in my fermenter lid, so hopefully the blow-off issue is solved

-made my two starters, but had some issues with that. I must've measured the water/LME wrong or didn't account for something correctly bc my gravity was 1.060 for the starter. I originally did about 40oz water and 4oz LME. Ended up adding about 16oz more to get the gravity down to 1.040. Starter has been made for about 4 hours now and I'm not seeing too much going on, but I'm guessing that's not too abnormal. Been shaking it up every hour or so.

-I've got a big mesh bag and strainer that I was considering using when I transferred to the fermenter, but I was thinking that straining out the late/FO hop additions that quickly would make them kind of a waste. Is it OK to do that?

-i made a batch of cleaning water with PBW and have had it sitting in my fermenter for a few hours to use to clean things off while making sure the bucket is clean. Having that in there for so long is fine as long as I rinse and sanitize it out before putting in the wort, right?

 

[LLBeanJ]

Updates:

-i bought a 5/8th inch tube that fits perfectly in my fermenter lid, so hopefully the blow-off issue is solved

-made my two starters, but had some issues with that. I must've measured the water/LME wrong or didn't account for something correctly bc my gravity was 1.060 for the starter. I originally did about 40oz water and 4oz LME. Ended up adding about 16oz more to get the gravity down to 1.040. Starter has been made for about 4 hours now and I'm not seeing too much going on, but I'm guessing that's not too abnormal. Been shaking it up every hour or so.

Just give it more time. It should take on a more creamy-colored appearance as the cell count increases.

-I've got a big mesh bag and strainer that I was considering using when I transferred to the fermenter, but I was thinking that straining out the late/FO hop additions that quickly would make them kind of a waste. Is it OK to do that?

Yes, it's okay, but you don't need to. I dump the whole mess from BK into the fermenter. Clear beer is never an issue.

-i made a batch of cleaning water with PBW and have had it sitting in my fermenter for a few hours to use to clean things off while making sure the bucket is clean. Having that in there for so long is fine as long as I rinse and sanitize it out before putting in the wort, right?

Yep, fine.

 

[tjm02c]

Brew went pretty well last night no real issues came up. I got slight bubbling action going on after about 10 hours or so, hoping it'll start picking up a little bit today.

 

[sky4meplease]

Nice!
Did you strain out hops or dump them straight in?

 

[tjm02c]

A little of both. The simcoe hops I boiled for 30 mins I put in a muslin bag and took those out, but the late additions I threw in directly. When I poured into the fermenter I poured through a strainer primarily as an attempt to aerate a little bit, but it also stained some out.

The little bubbling that I had going earlier this morning has stopped and now I'm wondering if I should go ahead and pitch that pack of WLP008, but every time I see people freaking out about their fermentation not happening people say to chill out and just wait so I'm probably going to do that for a little bit. The beer/wort is right around 65 degrees now, so maybe it's a little too cold?

 

[sky4meplease]

Right on.

Let that puppy go.
Wait a week before you check gravity.
The high end for 1318 temperature range is 74 so don't be afraid to bring it up.

English strains can hammer for a couple days then slow down to a crawl and chug on slowly showing little signs of life.

 

[marc1]

Also, if you use fermcap, you can use your airlock dry for the first 2 days or so of vigorous fermentation , just cover it with sanitized foil. Then you can close it up while it's still bubbling but not going crazy. no messing around with blowoff tubes

 

[tjm02c]

I'm trying to warm it up! Got my heat up to 72 and I wrapped the bucket in clothes. If that doesn't work I'll move it to the living room which is warmer than my closet. If I check the gravity in a week and it's still too high is that too late to pitch more yeast?

Don't have a fermcap and don't even know what that is. Seen a couple people mention it lately so I need to Google that.

 

[sky4meplease]

If you don't have a way to accurately measure the temperature of the beer then try to keep the room 5-7 degrees cooler than your target especially the first 3-4 days.
Then let it rise a bit.

 

[tjm02c]

I've got the sticker thermometer thing on the outside of the bucket, but don't know how accurate that is. Guess I need to turn the heat up!

 

[flars]

I've got the sticker thermometer thing on the outside of the bucket, but don't know how accurate that is. Guess I need to turn the heat up!

The stick on thermometer strips are usually within one degree of the wort temperature.

The strips will not with stand being submerged in the water of a swamp cooler. You can use warm water to bring the temperature of the fermenting beer up or use the swamp cooler as a large heat sink to hold the fermentation temperature down.