Yeast Options for NEIPA

[Vas1234]

HI all

I'm attempting to brew a NEIPA this weekend for the first time and I need some yeast recommendations. The options I have available are below:

Liquid- Wyeast 1318 London Ale III , no starter
Dry -- Safale 05
Dry - Bry97

I would prefer to go with Wyeast 1318, as I've read that's best for the character I'm going for with the NEIPA; however, I forgot to get any DME to help make a starter, so I'd potentially be pitching the pack straight into the wort. (yes, this is my first time using liquid yeast!)

BIAB setup, 1 gallon batch.

Given these options, what would you all recommend doing?

 

[jpakstis]

You should have no problems with 1318 with no starter pitching into a 1G batch. The only reason you’d want to make a starter would be if you have a 5G (or really 10G) or greater batch. Either dry or liquid, they are designed for 5 gallon batches so a 1 gallon is certainly fine.

In fact if you are chasing something like Heady Topper, they purposefully underpitch in order to stress the yeast to generate that peach/apricot ester.

As for strains, I’ve made NEIPAs with 05 and 97 and they were fine but I’ve been studying a bit more on yeast and their effect on the final result and the beers I’ve made with 05 and 97 were clean-tasting but lacking a bit. I’ve never used 1318 but that seems like a go-to for NEIPAs. I believe that it is the ancestor of Alchemist’s Conan yeast.

 

[brew703]

IMO it doesn't pay to use liquid if you are not going to harvest any. Most people brew a blonde ale with no dry hops and harvest the yeast for future batches. That's what I used to do.
Liquid yeast is better but double the cost. I only occasionally use liquid yeast now as I don't have the room to store harvested yeast.
For NEIPA's I've only used S04 and it works but no where as good as 1318 or Conan.
If I were you I would hold on to the 1318, brew a blonde and harvest the yeast. Use US05- never used BRY97 so cant comment. I have used US05 but lately haven't found the results to be that great (never used it in a NEIPA).
But to answer your question, I agree a pack of 1318 will be more than enough for a 1 gallon batch if you choose to go that route.

 

[TimmyWit]

IMO it doesn't pay to use liquid if you are not going to harvest any. If I were you I would hold on to the 1318, brew a blonde and harvest the yeast.

Really? It's $7. A pack of dry yeast is $4 so you're suggesting he should brew something completely different than what he actually wants just so he can save $3.00?

Brew what you want to brew @Vas1234. As others have mentioned, for 1 gallon you really don't need to make a starter. I concur with your choice as well. Out of what you have on hand, 1318 is the best option.

If you do get into starters, an alternative to brewing an entire batch of blonde ale for harvesting is simply to make an extra liter of starter and harvest that. As an added benefit, you can always maintain 1 and only 1 slant of each yeast you harvest. When you rinse your yeast after a 5 gallon batch, you can easily end up with 4 slants which can really start to pile up after you get 4 or 5 strains on hand.

 

[brew703]

Really? It's $7. A pack of dry yeast is $4 so you're suggesting he should brew something completely different than what he actually wants just so he can save $3.00?

Brew what you want to brew @Vas1234. As others have mentioned, for 1 gallon you really don't need to make a starter. I concur with your choice as well. Out of what you have on hand, 1318 is the best option.

If you do get into starters, an alternative to brewing an entire batch of blonde ale for harvesting is simply to make an extra liter of starter and harvest that. As an added benefit, you can always maintain 1 and only 1 slant of each yeast you harvest. When you rinse your yeast after a 5 gallon batch, you can easily end up with 4 slants which can really start to pile up after you get 4 or 5 strains on hand.

It was my opinion. that's all. I wasn't telling him to brew something he doesn't want to brew.
When I was using liquid exclusively, I would always brew a blonde. I would make a starter, harvest some then brew a blonde. Harvest 3 pint jars for future brews. it's the way I did it and it worked for me.
Cheers!

 

[TimmyWit]

It was my opinion. that's all. I wasn't telling him to brew something he doesn't want to brew.
When I was using liquid exclusively, I would always brew a blonde. I would make a starter, harvest some then brew a blonde. Harvest 3 pint jars for future brews. it's the way I did it and it worked for me.
Cheers!

If you use liquid yeast again and want to harvest, check out this method:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/yeast-harvesting-novel-approach.html

 

[Northern_Brewer]

You should have no problems with 1318 with no starter pitching into a 1G batch. The only reason you’d want to make a starter would be if you have a 5G (or really 10G) or greater batch. Either dry or liquid, they are designed for 5 gallon batches so a 1 gallon is certainly fine.

Quite - in fact one reason I like splitting batches into 1 gallons for fermentation is that an out-of-date liquid yeast is just about perfect for one given the decline in viability, and I can get unusual yeasts at <1/5 of the price of an in-date pack. So that works....

So yeah, it's an easy decision for @Vas1234 - just use the 1318, and consider using not all of it, forget the starter.

I’ve never used 1318 but that seems like a go-to for NEIPAs. I believe that it is the ancestor of Alchemist’s Conan yeast.

No - the DNA evidence in the public domain is only weak at the moment, but the Conan family seem to be part of the Fuller's/Whitbread B group. There's not much DNA work been done on Wyeast strains, but whatever 1318 is, it seems to be unrelated to Conan. (see https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...y-and-characterize.623221/page-3#post-8022874 )

 

[jpakstis]

No - the DNA evidence in the public domain is only weak at the moment, but the Conan family seem to be part of the Fuller's/Whitbread B group. There's not much DNA work been done on Wyeast strains, but whatever 1318 is, it seems to be unrelated to Conan. (see https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...y-and-characterize.623221/page-3#post-8022874 )

I stand corrected! I had read that it was potentially a blend or mixed from 1318 and others such as Fuller’s but never had clarification. As I’m just starting out in really trying to understand yeast (and having no scientific background whatsoever) these things can get a bit “above my pay grade” so to speak.

I was able to harvest some and it really gave me that Heady Topper stone fruit characteristic. I’m very glad that I took the trouble to harvest it.

 

[Sbe2]

If you use liquid yeast again and want to harvest, check out this method:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/yeast-harvesting-novel-approach.html

I use this method most of the time except I skip the washing step. I like to keep the beer on top of the yeast.

 

[Vas1234]

Thanks for all the advice everyone. Will definitely be going with the 1318 for this batch. Harvesting yeast sounds like a good option moving forward. I'm overseas right now, and getting liquid yeast is a bit challenging where I'm at, especially as summer months start heating things up.

Will update with how things turn out after brewday on Saturday!

 

[TimmyWit]

Thanks for all the advice everyone. Will definitely be going with the 1318 for this batch. Harvesting yeast sounds like a good option moving forward. I'm overseas right now, and getting liquid yeast is a bit challenging where I'm at, especially as summer months start heating things up.

Will update with how things turn out after brewday on Saturday!

Where are you at overseas? When I was stationed in Germany, I would order yeast from the states during the cooler months and then harvest through the summer. It worked out great. If you have any concerns about viability, you could step up your starter

 

[Vas1234]

Where are you at overseas? When I was stationed in Germany, I would order yeast from the states during the cooler months and then harvest through the summer. It worked out great. If you have any concerns about viability, you could step up your starter

I may try and copy that plan. I'm in Iraq right now, so the summers make shipping liquid yeast (or really anything) a no-go. Might be able to get one more shipment before things get too hot, so planning to harvest over summer sounds like a good idea.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I stand corrected! I had read that it was potentially a blend or mixed from 1318 and others such as Fuller’s but never had clarification. As I’m just starting out in really trying to understand yeast (and having no scientific background whatsoever) these things can get a bit “above my pay grade” so to speak.

I was able to harvest some and it really gave me that Heady Topper stone fruit characteristic. I’m very glad that I took the trouble to harvest it.

No, there's an awful lot of handwaving happens about the origins of yeast strains, it's really cool that DNA evidence is starting to creep into the public domain that can at least rule out some theories. All we really know about Conan is that Greg Noonan picked it up whilst he was in the UK in the 1980s, then opened the Vermont Pub & Brewery in Burlington in November 1988. It was initially called VPB-1188, but was nicknamed Conan because it was such a thug of a yeast. It then got spread around Vermont.

It's possible that it's a multistrain in the breweries , but certainly the commercial varieties linked to it such as Yeast Bay WLP4000 Vermont and White Labs WLP095 Burlington seem to match it quite closely whilst being single strains. It does seem quite mutable though, so 4000 has more intense fruit than 095.

My personal guess - and that's all it is - is that it was harvested from Fuller's somehow. They were the big starry brewery at the time, winning a bunch of Champion Beers of Britain - and being in London they get more attention from foreigners than other breweries. And they have a yeast that's easy to work with, and it's relatively easy to get your hands on it. But then putting it in a brewpub environment would have encouraged it to adapt and change away from life in an industrial brewkit.

1318 London Ale III is a bit of a mystery, the usual sources ascribe it to Boddingtons but I'm not sure I really believe it. Boddies being 200 miles away from London for one thing, and they also had various problems with their yeast in the 1980s. I've heard one theory that at one point they replaced their yeast with one from Courage in London, but I don't think there's any evidence for that.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I'm in Iraq right now, so the summers make shipping liquid yeast (or really anything) a no-go. Might be able to get one more shipment before things get too hot, so planning to harvest over summer sounds like a good idea.

Heh. Even in summer dry yeast would probably make it, but makes a lot more sense to ship in the cooler months and then keep it chilled locally. Although we ferment at lower temperatures to avoid off-flavours, most yeast are happiest around 30C (86F) and most ale yeast will make it to 40C or more in wet form, higher than that when dry. But it always makes sense to keep them cooler if possible, and harvesting sounds the best plan.

Don't know how much control you have of fermentation temperatures, but you might want to play with some of the Norwegian kveiks that are coming on the market - both Omega and Yeast Bay sell Voss, Omega also has Hothead (Stranda) and Hornindal. They all ferment clean up in the high 90sF, Hornindal is probably first choice for a NEIPA if you can get it but they'd all work.

 

[TimmyWit]

Heh. Even in summer dry yeast would probably make it, but makes a lot more sense to ship in the cooler months and then keep it chilled locally. Although we ferment at lower temperatures to avoid off-flavours, most yeast are happiest around 30C (86F) and most ale yeast will make it to 40C or more in wet form, higher than that when dry. But it always makes sense to keep them cooler if possible, and harvesting sounds the best plan.

Don't know how much control you have of fermentation temperatures, but you might want to play with some of the Norwegian kveiks that are coming on the market - both Omega and Yeast Bay sell Voss, Omega also has Hothead (Stranda) and Hornindal. They all ferment clean up in the high 90sF, Hornindal is probably first choice for a NEIPA if you can get it but they'd all work.

I can vouch for that Hothead. It’s my favorite strain for a NE IPA and I have played with it quite a bit. I split a batch at different ferm temps (high 60’s and 90) and there were no perceivable differences. As you might expect the one fermented hot finished cleaner.

I also split a batch 3 ways with Hothead, 1318 and US-04. Everyone who sampled all 3 preferred Hothead. It adds a really nice tropical nose that compliments the style well. I even submitted that Hothead version to a local brewery for a contest and it won so I got to go and brew a 15 BBL batch there. All credit goes to the yeast and the helpful folks on this forum

 

[jpakstis]

I use this method most of the time except I skip the washing step. I like to keep the beer on top of the yeast.

Me too, plus it makes it even easier. I just make a bit extra starter (usu. 0.5L) and decant as much as I can into a clean and Starsan'd 8 ounce mason jar and keep that in the fridge until next time.

 

[jpakstis]

No, there's an awful lot of handwaving happens about the origins of yeast strains, it's really cool that DNA evidence is starting to creep into the public domain that can at least rule out some theories. All we really know about Conan is that Greg Noonan picked it up whilst he was in the UK in the 1980s, then opened the Vermont Pub & Brewery in Burlington in November 1988. It was initially called VPB-1188, but was nicknamed Conan because it was such a thug of a yeast. It then got spread around Vermont.

It's possible that it's a multistrain in the breweries , but certainly the commercial varieties linked to it such as Yeast Bay WLP4000 Vermont and White Labs WLP095 Burlington seem to match it quite closely whilst being single strains. It does seem quite mutable though, so 4000 has more intense fruit than 095.

My personal guess - and that's all it is - is that it was harvested from Fuller's somehow. They were the big starry brewery at the time, winning a bunch of Champion Beers of Britain - and being in London they get more attention from foreigners than other breweries. And they have a yeast that's easy to work with, and it's relatively easy to get your hands on it. But then putting it in a brewpub environment would have encouraged it to adapt and change away from life in an industrial brewkit.

1318 London Ale III is a bit of a mystery, the usual sources ascribe it to Boddingtons but I'm not sure I really believe it. Boddies being 200 miles away from London for one thing, and they also had various problems with their yeast in the 1980s. I've heard one theory that at one point they replaced their yeast with one from Courage in London, but I don't think there's any evidence for that.

Thanks so much for this. Its fascinating stuff!

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I can vouch for that Hothead. It’s my favorite strain for a NE IPA and I have played with it quite a bit. I split a batch at different ferm temps (high 60’s and 90) and there were no perceivable differences. As you might expect the one fermented hot finished cleaner.

FYI Hothead is regarded as the "baby" of the kveik family, Voss and in particular Hornindal are more hardcore - they like it warmer, and have more fruit flavour....

Sadly there's only one importer of Omega here, and their first batch of both of them sold out within 24 hours of arrival.

 

[TimmyWit]

FYI Hothead is regarded as the "baby" of the kveik family, Voss and in particular Hornindal are more hardcore - they like it warmer, and have more fruit flavour....

Sadly there's only one importer of Omega here, and their first batch of both of them sold out within 24 hours of arrival.

Wow, thanks! I did not realize that but now I have some on order. As much as I like 057, I can’t wait to give these a try!

 

[couchsending]

04 would be the go to dry yeast for this style but it has to be kept below 64... real bready from 65-69 and tart yogurt above that. Bissell uses the liquid form of BRY-97 so you could use that as well. Although for some reason I don’t think the dry version works nearly as well.

 

[Comfort_Zone]

FYI Hothead is regarded as the "baby" of the kveik family, Voss and in particular Hornindal are more hardcore - they like it warmer, and have more fruit flavour....

Sadly there's only one importer of Omega here, and their first batch of both of them sold out within 24 hours of arrival.

Hothead definitely is the "baby". From what I've seen it ferments the "slowest", is much less fruity, and from Omega has told me it's also the least alcohol tolerant kveik that they've played with. That being said, these are all relative as it still ferments like a bat out of hell at 90+ and will get to 13% abv with relative ease.

 

[Vas1234]

Update to original post-

I pitched the 1318 about 72 hours ago with no starter. No visible fermentation activity since then - no krausen yet and no airlock activity (which I know is never a good indicator to use, but just throwing that out there FWIW). Overshot my OG and it came in very high at 1.12 for 1 gallon.

Given the high OG and lack of a starter, should I wait this out a bit more and attribute to an extra long lag time and see if fermentation takes off? Should I repitch with some 05 which I still have a few packets of? Getting a gravity reading my be a little tough - broke my hydrometer while cleaning up after this batch and and Iraq doesn't have a ton of home brew stores I can run to grab a new on at - otherwise that would my first choice.

I don't mind being patient, but I also don't want to wait too long and risk a wasted brewday and wort if this liquid yeast isn't going to take off. I know no one will have a definitive answer but I'm curious what others have done in this situation (besides take a gravity reading)!

Thanks!

 

[couchsending]

Yeah 72 hours is a long time. Just brewed a 1318 batch and I had activity in like 6 hours. (with a starter however)

Iraq? How are you getting liquid yeast?

I would think you'd want to stick with dry yeast if you're having to have it shipped to you.

 

[TimmyWit]

FYI Hothead is regarded as the "baby" of the kveik family, Voss and in particular Hornindal are more hardcore - they like it warmer, and have more fruit flavour....

Sadly there's only one importer of Omega here, and their first batch of both of them sold out within 24 hours of arrival.

40 hours post-pitch and both of these are down from 1.054 to 1.014. I'm fermenting at 92 ambient in a keg with the clear-beer draught system and a spunding valve. Judging by the clarity of the samples, I'm assuming the krausen already dropped since I'm pulling from the top of the keg. I'm hoping to reach FG by Friday, give it a few days to clean up then crash by Sunday or Monday as long as it's stable. As of right now, they are both kind of similar to my tastes. I'm getting a lot of lemon with maybe a touch of pepper. Very saison-like and surprisingly clean less than 2 days from pitch. I considered dry-hopping this one but I think I'm going to leave it so I can see exactly what these are bringing to the table. These were both from Omega. I have the Hornindal strain from Escarpment labs on order from Canada for comparisons sake

 

[BrewinInPA]

Stop worrying and just use kviek.