Yeast immobilization: magic beans of fermentation

[MrNatural]

Any current visual pron available?

 

[AlmostWitty]

Looking forward to following this for a while.

 

[Andrikos]

You'd be losing a lot of surface area this way, which is trouble for diffusion rates. This stuff's actually pretty easy to work with. Dripping the beads into the calcium solution only takes a couple of minutes really, and I'll be able to fish the beads back out with not much more than a strainer at the end.

Thanks for the reply, it makes sense.

However, it was exactly the low(est) "surface area / volume ratio" property of spheres that made me think of a star shaped "yeast-string" to maximize surface area.

On the piping tool pic, look at the left table (pink) second top of the right column tool. I think it would be ideally shaped for such a task.
Of course, all I have to do convince myself is to do it.

I was thinking maybe 10cm long snakes (say 10 billion cells each) and if your recipe calls for 250B cells, you drop 25 of those bad boys in there and be done...

Hmmm....

 

[MalFet]

It would be really neat if the beads did ferment faster and allow the beer to clear in around 1.5 weeks instead of the 3 weeks that is often tossed around here as the minimum for primary fermentation. The time saving would have some value to me.

There's two things here, though, right? Though I was complaining that the beads were working slowly a few posts ago, the reality is that I'm 2/3rds through fermentation in about sixty hours. If there's a time savings to be had here, it's going to be not from fermentation speed but clearing speed. In the bead beer, there's nothing to clear. It looks like normally clear beer right now and it's still actively fermenting.

What about suspending some stainless steel shot or other weights inside the beads?

Certainly, though that'd be quite a bit more work and I'm a very lazy man. I think you'd have to use molds somehow. In any case, I'm not sure that weighting the beads down will significantly improve surface contact. If I were to try to weight the yeast somehow I'd probably use something like what passedpawn post a picture of.

Any current visual pron available?

I'll post something when I get home tonight. The thing is, though, the control looks like a normal beer ferment and the experimental looks just like it did when it started. Aside from a very small amount of gas output, there are very few signs of fermentation in the bead jar.

 

[GrogNerd]

I remember reading somewhere in Mupor's thread that you had to pitch as much bead-suspended yeast as you would end up with in a regular fermentation.

and definitely subbed.

because SCIENCE!

 

[MalFet]

Thanks for the reply, it makes sense.

However, it was exactly the low(est) "surface area / volume ratio" property of spheres that made me think of a star shaped "yeast-string" to maximize surface area.

On the piping tool pic, look at the left table (pink) second top of the right column tool. I think it would be ideally shaped for such a task.
Of course, all I have to do convince myself is to do it.

I was thinking maybe 10cm long snakes (say 10 billion cells each) and if your recipe calls for 250B cells, you drop 25 of those bad boys in there and be done...

Hmmm....

Certainly...I like the color idea. Assuming these things keep for reasonably long periods of time and reasonably high numbers of batches (and I consider that a very big assumption at this point), it'd be nice to see beads of all different colors sitting in your fridge.

Just to clarify, though, a sphere only has the lowest surface area / volume ratio for a fixed quantity of substance. 10 grams of tiny spheres will have significantly more surface area than 10 grams rolled into a snake.

It would be beneficial to have "frills" on droplets, but I doubt you'd get that effect with a icing bag. Soon as the goop hits the calcium solution, its surface tension pulls it into a sphere shape pretty much no matter how it started. Worth a try, though!

 

[MalFet]

I remember reading somewhere in Mupor's thread that you had to pitch as much bead-suspended yeast as you would end up with in a regular fermentation.

Yep. That's what I've done.

 

[passedpawn]

Thanks for the reply, it makes sense.

However, it was exactly the low(est) "surface area / volume ratio" property of spheres that made me think of a star shaped "yeast-string" to maximize surface area.

On the piping tool pic, look at the left table (pink) second top of the right column tool. I think it would be ideally shaped for such a task.
Of course, all I have to do convince myself is to do it.

I was thinking maybe 10cm long snakes (say 10 billion cells each) and if your recipe calls for 250B cells, you drop 25 of those bad boys in there and be done...

Hmmm....

There's a white paper on the interenet somewhere that did lab studies with different bead sizes (and yeast and the alginate beads). The smaller the beads were the better. They used an "electrostatic syringe" to create very small beads.

There is a necessary transfer of sugars into the bead, and CO2 out, that limits the speed of the fermentation. Reducing the bead size might improve this.

 

[passedpawn]

Certainly...I like the color idea. Assuming these things keep for reasonably long periods of time and reasonably high numbers of batches (and I consider that a very big assumption at this point), it'd be nice to see beads of all different colors sitting in your fridge.

Just to clarify, though, a sphere only has the lowest surface area / volume ratio for a fixed quantity of substance. 10 grams of tiny spheres will have significantly more surface area than 10 grams rolled into a snake.

It would be beneficial to have "frills" on droplets, but I doubt you'd get that effect with a icing bag. Soon as the goop hits the calcium solution, its surface tension pulls it into a sphere shape pretty much no matter how it started. Worth a try, though!

 

[WortMonger]

If this works, I'm going back to my stir plate idea for primary fermentation since I won't have to fight the fallen yeast. Since I'm under positive pressure constantly, I wouldn't have the O2 going into the fermenting beer like in a starter to worry about and it would move the beer around the beads for greater yeast to beer contact. I'm in a Sanke so I plan on side wall stir bar agitation with a more spherical type of stir bar. My thoughts go to containing the beads in larger tea balls so they don't have any possibility of going into my dip tube when transferring to my serving keg.

One question that I am worrying about if this works: What about lagers? For ales floating beads is great since they are at the top, but what about bottom fermenting yeast strains? Would circulating via stir bar overcome this no matter the strain, or would you have to contain or sink the beads for lager?

Man this is a great experiment and I can't wait to see when tasting comes into the equation.

 

[chocotaco]

One question that I am worrying about if this works: What about lagers? For ales floating beads is great since they are at the top, but what about bottom fermenting yeast strains? Would circulating via stir bar overcome this no matter the strain, or would you have to contain or sink the beads for lager?

I don't think the yeast are smart enough to know whether they're at the top or the bottom. Top fermenting yeast just naturally float up while they are actively fermenting, while bottom fermenting yeast naturally sink. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[MalFet]

If this works, I'm going back to my stir plate idea for primary fermentation since I won't have to fight the fallen yeast. Since I'm under positive pressure constantly, I wouldn't have the O2 going into the fermenting beer like in a starter to worry about and it would move the beer around the beads for greater yeast to beer contact. I'm in a Sanke so I plan on side wall stir bar agitation with a more spherical type of stir bar. My thoughts go to containing the beads in larger tea balls so they don't have any possibility of going into my dip tube when transferring to my serving keg.

One question that I am worrying about if this works: What about lagers? For ales floating beads is great since they are at the top, but what about bottom fermenting yeast strains? Would circulating via stir bar overcome this no matter the strain, or would you have to contain or sink the beads for lager?

Man this is a great experiment and I can't wait to see when tasting comes into the equation.

I don't imagine it would make a difference for lagers, at least as I understand it. The top versus bottom thing is a consequence of a bunch of different factors, but I've never seen anything to suggest that it's necessary.

I'm very skeptical that this will produce quality results. My reasoning for that is simple: alginate immobilization is a well known thing. Pretty much any college-level biochem class will play around with this. There are some significant advantages, particularly at the commercial scale. Yet, I've never heard of a commercial brewery actually going this route. I've got to imagine that if AB-Inbev isn't doing this, it's not because they haven't heard of it.

But, it's fun to play with. I'm looking forward to tasting too, though there's a long way to go before I will feel comfortable declaring one way or the other. Considering how cheap and easy this is, I'm hoping others will give it a shot once I've run my test batch through. It will take a heck of a lot more than a few test batches for me to start using something like this regularly.

 

[Andrikos]

Just to clarify, though, a sphere only has the lowest surface area / volume ratio for a fixed quantity of substance. 10 grams of tiny spheres will have significantly more surface area than 10 grams rolled into a snake.

Good point.

Soon as the goop hits the calcium solution, its surface tension pulls it into a sphere shape pretty much no matter how it started

Good to know, I've never used this stuff.

 

[WortMonger]

I don't think the yeast are smart enough to know whether they're at the top or the bottom. Top fermenting yeast just naturally float up while they are actively fermenting, while bottom fermenting yeast naturally sink. Correct me if I'm wrong.

That's what I was thinking and hoping for. Now does anyone see a problem with containing them if a stir bar is agitating the active fermentation? Remember, I'm sealed up so no worry of O2 like goes on with a starter.

 

[MalFet]

That's what I was thinking and hoping for. Now does anyone see a problem with containing them if a stir bar is agitating the active fermentation? Remember, I'm sealed up so no worry of O2 like goes on with a starter.

Nope! No problem I can see. It might even help with ester development, as (I believe) CO2 saturation inhibits Acetyl CoA production in some important way that I've read about but don't fully understand. If you can keep things more evenly distributed, that might help. I've heard smart people argue that it's actually this that makes stirplates useful during yeast propagation, rather than the other stuff we usually think of.

/end wild speculation

 

[WortMonger]

MalFet, I wonder if this is how they utilize yeast in major breweries for what they call accelerated maturation? I know Bud uses the beechwood chips to give a large surface area for the yeast to clean the beer and mature it as fast as they do, but i have read other use pushing the beer through a area of contained yeast. I wonder if a container filled with these beads would be something similar/same? I know lager breweries are the ones mostly mentioned when talking accelerated maturation.

 

[KegWrangler]

I would gladly trade you my cow for 6 of your magic beans...what's the worst that could happen?

 

[weirdboy]

I would be very interested to see you put some of the fermented magic bean beer under a microscope to see what's in there, side-by-side with some of the control batch.

 

[ACbrewer]

This is really cool. I'm awaiting the taste results.

Certainly...I like the color idea. Assuming these things keep for reasonably long periods of time and reasonably high numbers of batches (and I consider that a very big assumption at this point), it'd be nice to see beads of all different colors sitting in your fridge.

yes yeast colors

Just to clarify, though, a sphere only has the lowest surface area / volume ratio for a fixed quantity of substance. 10 grams of tiny spheres will have significantly more surface area than 10 grams rolled into a snake.

your statement is correct "lowest surface area/volume" but your conclusion is opposite the statement. This means that a sphere of volume V will have the smallest surface area SA of any shape, not the largest.

Frankly it doesn't matter as the concern is to have a easiest way to make them (spheres) and just put more in. And I think the smallest size (Volume or dimension) is desireable.

I'm wondering about permiablity of the wort beyond the surface- are these pouruse enough? Otherwise you end up with only the surface yeast doing any work and there could be far less yeast doing the work.

 

[Hermit]

actually budding off a little clone, on the other hand, leaves you scarred and closer to death.

You sound like a parent.

 

[BrewKnurd]

your statement is correct "lowest surface area/volume" but your conclusion is opposite the statement. This means that a sphere of volume V will have the smallest surface area SA of any shape, not the largest.

For a single shape, yes. For differing numbers of shapes, no. Which is MalFets point. A bunch of spheres, even though they have the lowest SA/Volume ratio for their individual volumes, still have a lot more SA than a single shape with a higher SA/volume ratio and the same volume as the total of all the spheres.

 

[bdh]

Just to clarify, though, a sphere only has the lowest surface area / volume ratio for a fixed quantity of substance. 10 grams of tiny spheres will have significantly more surface area than 10 grams rolled into a snake.

Yes, but 10 grams of tiny stars will have even more surface area than 10 grams of tiny spheres

Actually seems like if you had something like a coolship fermenter you could "line" the bottom with a big sheet of immobilized yeast. Not as convenient as small spheres since you'd have to find a way to store it for future brews, but it would give you lots of surface contact.

 

[broadbill]

I'm wondering about permiablity of the wort beyond the surface- are these pouruse enough? Otherwise you end up with only the surface yeast doing any work and there could be far less yeast doing the work.

This is almost certainly an issue; not only the diffusion of sugars into the middle of the bead, but the diffusion of alcohol, CO2 byproducts out of the bead.

I'm not sure how you would account for this without some complex modeling.

 

[Hermit]

There's a white paper on the interenet somewhere that did lab studies with different bead sizes (and yeast and the alginate beads). The smaller the beads were the better. They used an "electrostatic syringe" to create very small beads.

There is a necessary transfer of sugars into the bead, and CO2 out, that limits the speed of the fermentation. Reducing the bead size might improve this.

In normal fermentation the yeast create 'churn' that helps the yeast contact until they start to floc out. I'm finding it hard to believe this will be practical for home brewers. Now, add some glycerin so I can freeze them and maybe.....

 

[Andrikos]

speaking of diffusion of sugars...

This sounds like it would be more efficient with simple sugars since the permeability of longer chain sugars would be naturally smaller.
I wonder if the wine guys are "lining up" to try this...

 

[LBussy]

This might work well for commercial ethanol production - as someone mentioned passing the wort through a controlled amount of beads would be the way to go. Was also thinking wines where less of the character comes form the yeast - although higher alcohols might impact the health of the yeast negatively.

By the way, if people who are subscribing would just use the tool at the top of the page instead of replying "subbed!" I won;t get spammed with updates. Yes, it's all about me.

 

[Tinga]

well I just thought that these would be useful for making ciders and stuff that you want sweet. instead of back sweetening, pasteurizing or adding lactose you can simply remove the beads once you hit the FG you want and it should stop fermenting.

would that work?

 

[Andrikos]

well I just thought that these would be useful for making ciders and stuff that you want sweet. instead of back sweetening, pasteurizing or adding lactose you can simply remove the beads once you hit the FG you want and it should stop fermenting.

would that work?

Theoretically yes assuming you prevent wild yeast/bacteria from contaminating your finished product.

Which pretty much brings you back to square one (adding sulfates or pasteurizing)...

 

[ACbrewer]

For a single shape, yes. For differing numbers of shapes, no. Which is MalFets point. A bunch of spheres, even though they have the lowest SA/Volume ratio for their individual volumes, still have a lot more SA than a single shape with a higher SA/volume ratio and the same volume as the total of all the spheres.

Well yes, a 10 1gr sphere would probably be better than 1 10gram snake, in terms of surface area. but why make 1 10gr snake? make 10 1 gr snake?

BUT (and here is where the SA/V discussion doesn't matter in some ways). If I can make a 10 Units of SA in inefficent spheres in the same time as 1unit SA on efficent snakes, well I'm making little spheres, after all, my time is >>> in importance than the SA when I can up the quantity easily. And I think MalFet said that was the case.

 

[Pratzie]

I looked but can't seem to find it... didn't University of Idaho try this recently? i thought I saw a post on it a few weeks ago, maybe last week