Yeast Harvesting/Predation

[landhoney]

I'm brewing a Beligian Witbier tomorrow, and will be splitting 5 1/5 gallons into 2 batches - one with fruit and one without. Tonight I bought:
1. Westmalle Tripel
2. Lindemans Raspberry Lambic
3. Rochefort 8
Since it'll only be ~2 gallons I was thinking of just adding the bottle yeast at the bottom of each of these bottles - all 3 - to one of the batches. I realize that without making a starter it will take a long time to get going. Assuming things are fairly sanitized should I try it?
Also, with wine you don't use multiple yeasts in the same batch because of predation. But with the belgian yeasts from Wy/WhiteLabs, they are supposedly blends, is this not a problem with these beer yeast? The more dominant yeast doesn't just eat the other yeast?
Hope this is clear, be easy on me I'm very ineperienced using anything but store bought yeast.

 

[DeathBrewer]

i don't think it will work. special care needs to be taken to cultivate yeast. i would suggest getting the yeast ready before you just throw it in, cultivating each one separately.

after that, some blending would be a very interesting experiment.

 

[abt]

I wouldn't do it. Culturing properly from a bottle is already an iffy proposition; put it into hard-earned wort and you're asking for heartbreak. The yeast may even be viable, but not able to do a good job in such a large volume. And the extremely long lag time that would be required would just beg for infection. Your wort is not sterile. No one's is.
That said, I totally support the experiment. Just prop from the bottles first then brew when you have a pitchable amount.
Most of the Wyeast and White Lab strains are not blends. They have a couple that are blends, but 510, 530, 550, 570, I believe those are all single strains. That's not to say that the source breweries don't work with blends, but propagating and maintaing blend ratios is difficult for a yeast lab to do, and it's much easier just to have a single strain to worry about. That's why some of those blends are only seasonably available. Over time the yeast strain balance will be affected, but not from one eating the other; rather one strain is just stronger or faster at reproducing and ends up being in the majority. I suppose it's possible to find a couple of strains that are "worthy foes" and end up neck-and-neck for long times, but generally it doesn't work.
That's why Chimay had to reisolate their yeast and choose a colony to start over again back in the late 80's or whenever it was.
BTW, using anything that comes out of those bottles, you will NOT be making a wit.

 

[landhoney]

You guys are awesome. Questions:
1. So if I use these yeast in a witbier recipe it will cease to be a witbier? How so?

2. I realize that most yeast sold is not a blend, but the trappist,etc. that say that they are -they must be blends of yeast that will not out compete one another, right?

3. Lastly, is there anyway you think this might work? I have 8 batches of beer in either primary/secondary, so trying this with 2.5 gallons is not huge to me. I don't want to waste, but if there's a small chance - I wouldn't mind taking it. Especially, to share my relts with the masses. Any chance of success?

P.S. I did say sanitized -not sterilized, I know I can't sterilize.

 

[DeathBrewer]

1. i believe both the westmalle and the rocheport are high-gravity belgian yeasts, not ideal for making a wit. Read through white labs different yeasts to get an idea of the different styles and how they work:http://whitelabs.com/beer/homebrew_strains.html
BTW, they're FAQ is awesome. read through it when you get the chance.

EDIT: a wit blended with lambic yeast and witbier yeast might be interesting, but you may have trouble getting the yeast from Lindeman's

2. Like abt stated, blending is very difficult and these guys have tons of chemists in clean rooms working hard to make this happen. getting it right can be difficult, but i still think it would be a great experiment for a home brewer, just not as controlled and you will most likely not get the blend they can maintain.

3. i would give this experiment 0.000001% chance of success without first cultivating the yeast.

 

[landhoney]

...of Floyd Christmas( Jim Carrey's character in Dumb and Dumber):
"So you're tellin' me there's a chance!"
Just jokin' around.

Unfourtunately for me I am short on planning ahead with my brewing. I like deciding a day or so ahead and getting it together. I'm trying to slow down, its addictive though. And all my beers have turned out so great, its hard to slow down and plan weeks in advance - which is what it would take to cultivate these bottle yeast. So it looks like tomorrow I'll be using normal yeast.

 

[abt]

Good choice. I realize you said sanitized, but I was just pointing out that there will be bugs in there competing with your bottled yeast, and the outcome is sketchy.
One of the more important factors in making a wit is using a wit strain; why I said it wouldn't be a wit. Like making a hefe with English yeast, or a dubbel with pilsner yeast.
IIRC Chris White says he expects those blends he sells to last about 6 generations before the profile changes significantly - not a bad thing, just not really the same blend you originally bought.
Cultivating from a bottle can be fun, and I recommend youtry it, but it really only makes sense (and just a little at that) to do it from sources you can't easily by the strain for. Westmalle, Rochefort, LaChouffe, etc., these are all available. Find some funky beer you like, like Caracole or something, and prop that up.
As a matter of fact, that's a good idea. Maybe a farmhouse ale of some sort.