yeast harvest when off flavors were present

[bailey mountain brewer]

Hi everyone, I am new to this forum and this is my first post so please bear with me.
Last week i kegged a 15gal batch of neipa, a recipe that i have brewed several times and love playing around with. this time everything went well as far as gravity readings and temperature. after kegging i noticed an slight off flavor which after going over everything and replaying my brewday in my mind i think the flavor is due to me forgetting to rinse my kettles after running pbw through after my previous brewday and therefore the cleaner was left in the kettles for this brew. stupid mistake and everything else about the beer is good and the batch isnt ruined. my question is i have harvested yeast from this batch and i know my fermenter was clean and sanitized and all. will that yeast have been compromised from my mistake or am i ok to use for my next batch?

 

[Dland]

It's probably OK if you correctly guessed reason for off flavor. With all the work that goes into a 15 gallon batch, I'd want to be pretty sure it was not an infection of some sort.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

yeah that is also part of my concern, this is the first time i have ever had an issue with this type of flavor in my beer so i read all the off flavors and causes and racked my brain for a while. its the only thing i can come up with. i havent changed any of my water chemistry or grain mill settings and honestly it is like a chemical type flavor just at first and its gone just like that and all the great neipa flavors take over. aroma is great. i upgraded about a year ago to the spike herms 30 gal system and cf15 conicals and have run probably 15 batches through the system. first time ive had this problem. i combined 2 yeast strains for this batch trying to create a unique strain for me to use or i wouldnt even chance it. this weekend i will be giving everything a thorough cleaning.

 

[IslandLizard]

If you're talking about the PBW clinging to the sides of your kettle or fermenter, it will not leave a noticeable taste, especially in a 15 gallon batch.

Now if you left a gallon of PBW working solution in your kettle and ran 18 gallons of wort onto that, yeah, you might taste it.
If that was not the case, you need to look elsewhere.

What kind of water are you using? If municipal tap water, do you treat it for chlorine/chloramines?
Any oxidation perhaps?

If you reuse yeast, there's always a risk infections come with it.
I saved a quart of harvested then strained yeast slurry from a 5 gallon batch of NEIPA. Once it settled out, about an inch or 2 of yeast, beer on top. After 2 weeks in the fridge a pellicle started to appear. I guess somewhere in the harvesting process it picked up an infection. I think it was by straining it. Back to the drawing board on that.

BTW, 15 gallons of NEIPA is a huge amount for a homebrewer... I'm curious.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

ok so likely not my problem and i should start with new yeast. this batch i did use yeast harvested for maybe the 3rd time. i suppose i could have got an infection that wasnt noticeable with the naked eye. i will clean everything out and sanitize and start fresh to be safe for my next batch. as far as the 15gal of NEIPA it is what i plan to make as my flagship and send to competitions. i have been brewing for 8 years and less then a year on my current setup and i am trying to really dial it in and this has been my first hiccup. i havent entered any comps yet but have a few that i intend to in the near future so i am trying to get this right. i have a 4 tap keezer i built 5 or 6 years ago and serve to friends and i have brewed for some friends events including a wedding. but for now still in hobby form. to touch on the water i use, i live in the mountains of PA on a well, sometimes i will use water from a freshwater spring in state gamelands that is a mile down the road from me but i have never had a problem in the past using my well water or the fresh spring water. oxidation is out, everything gets transferred via pumps into my conical through the bottom racking port and i do a closed pressure transfer into purged kegs.

 

[bracconiere]

BTW, 15 gallons of NEIPA is a huge amount for a homebrewer... I'm curious.

and now i'm thinking i need a bigger kettle, and cooler......(having trouble keeping my glass full "just" brewing 10 )

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

big kettles are a lovely thing, except when somethings goes wrong like in my current situation. i attached a couple photos of my basement/brewery/happy place.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

so now coming to a new conclusion of having some type of contamination or infection, should i serve this beer or not a good idea? thanks again for the help and input.

 

[day_trippr]

Just an idea to perhaps gain more insight: put a few ounces in a glass, cover it with plastic wrap, leave it in a warm-ish place, and keep an eye on it. If there's anything going on, that sample should show it first...

Cheers!

 

[IslandLizard]

so now coming to a new conclusion of having some type of contamination or infection, should i serve this beer or not a good idea? thanks again for the help and input.

What kind of off flavors are you getting? Can you describe them? Are they new, just to this batch or something that has been lingering already, becoming more pronounced?
Could it be some hop that's giving you a not so positive experience?

It may not win your next competition, but is the beer good and drinkable otherwise? Have others tried it and given feedback? Any beer from previous batches left so you can do side by side taste tests?
From what I understand there are no pathogens in properly brewed and fermented beer, so it should be safe to drink.

Your yeast is the only ingredient that's being reused from batch to batch, so yeah, a progression of problems would point to your yeast. Are you harvesting yeast through the dump port? Is that port/valve area meticulously cleaned and sanitized before filling with each brew, and again, before harvesting yeast?
All TC with a butterfly valve? Any threads in there?

Nothing wrong with using well water, but the composition may change with the seasons or sudden big weather events, like droughts. Does it go through a whole house filter? RO?
Water minerals, such as Manganese and Iron, even in small amounts can create havoc with beer flavor.

Unless you're a (semi-) pro, I find experimenting with 15 gallon batches and 2-3 pounds of expensive IPA hops ($40-60) a bit odd. More so for dialing in and testing (new) hop combos.

 

[Franktalk]

Nice rig!

 

[IslandLizard]

it is like a chemical type flavor just at first and its gone just like that and all the great neipa flavors take over.

There's so much flavor and aroma in NEIPAs I'm surprised you'd detect something, then it disappears.
Chlorophenols perhaps?

If you suspect your yeast mixture, pitch some in half a gallon of low hopped wort and see where that leads.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

What kind of off flavors are you getting? Can you describe them? Are they new, just to this batch or something that has been lingering already, becoming more pronounced?
Could it be some hop that's giving you a not so positive experience?

It may not win your next competition, but is the beer good and drinkable otherwise? Have others tried it and given feedback? Any beer from previous batches left so you can do side by side taste tests?
From what I understand there are no pathogens in properly brewed and fermented beer, so it should be safe to drink.

Your yeast is the only ingredient that's being reused from batch to batch, so yeah, a progression of problems would point to your yeast. Are you harvesting yeast through the dump port? Is that port/valve area meticulously cleaned and sanitized before filling with each brew, and again, before harvesting yeast?
All TC with a butterfly valve? Any threads in there?

Nothing wrong with using well water, but the composition may change with the seasons or sudden big weather events, like droughts. Does it go through a whole house filter? RO?
Water minerals, such as Manganese and Iron, even in small amounts can create havoc with beer flavor.

Unless you're a (semi-) pro, I find experimenting with 15 gallon batches and 2-3 pounds of expensive IPA hops ($40-60) a bit odd. More so for dialing in and testing (new) hop combos.

I tried to post this last night but was apparently over the 'posting limit" It's not very noticeable it's just something a little off, maybe im being to critical of my beer. It's kind of hard to explain but you can feel it on your tongue a little so more of a mouthfeel issue than a flavor issue in my opinion. I just got home and am sipping it now trying to pinpoint. Maybe it was something with my dry hopping but I only let the dry hops in the fermenter for 3 to 4 days. Almost a has a tangy taste or feel to it. Today it seems less noticeable then yesterday. Also I would not say I'm experimenting, this is a recipe that I have brewed numerous times on my old 5 gal system and a this is the 4th time on the 15 gal system that I scaled up using beersmith and have only adjusted malts to hit my gravity on the new system and very small changes to hop profile, I brewed my cream ale a hefeweizen first to get my adjustments closer. I have made minor changes but nothing drastic. I buy my hops from hophavoc when they are at a reasonable price. But yea still a pricey batch but it is definitely a good beer just something felt off so I figured I would look for some input . I am supposed to serve this beer and 2 others I have at a family and friends event this weekend. Yes all fittings are tc and butterfly valves, no threads. I use star san thoroughly. My well water is filtered. Again thanks for the help and suggestions.

after the suggestions i am going to serve it this weekend and see what others think, also i think will put the harvested yeast in a half gallon of wort as IslandLizard has mentioned. i did pour some into a glass and covered it with plastic wrap and left it on my counter overnight as day trippr suggested and didnt notice anything thanks again everyone

 

[IslandLizard]

It could be from the dry hopping, or just being green beer.
Or some hop bite from the ton of hop dust that's still settling out.
You'll know if it improves over the next few days. Brewers tend to be very critical about their beers, tasting things no-one else even notices.

I was thinking of the possibility of diacetyl (due to Pedio build-up in hard to reach areas) but with your setup that's unlikely.
Just in case, the valves on your boil kettle do need to be cleaned, flushed in both directions in 45° position to prevent wort staying behind in the ball chamber. And taken apart periodically. Heat apparently doesn't quite kill Pedio.

i think will put the harvested yeast in a half gallon of wort

You mean some (!) of the harvested yeast, a teaspoon, max.

Actually, a quart of wort, or a little more, should be plenty. Use proper sanitation of course. Basically making a small clean batch. Just for a test to see if anything weird is going on in the yeast. Ferment warmish. If a pellicle appears you definitely know what day it is.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

ok, great i will do that with the yeast, small amount in a quart of wort. and also i usually do reverse the flow on my valves when i clean my kettle but i havent taken the valves apart to clean them so i will be sure to do that this weekend as well. this has been a huge help. always looking for ways to improve.

thanks

 

[IslandLizard]

i usually do reverse the flow on my valves when i clean my kettle

Yup, check those valves!

Operate the valve handle between fully open and 45-60° closed, back and forth several times while flushing them, both ways. It rinses out the ball cavity in which wort can get trapped. Then leave half open in the 45° position to dry.

I've found none to very minor deposits in the ball valves, even after increasing the disassembly routine to every 10 sessions. They also get flushed with boiling hot wort the same way, during each brew session. Then there are the periodic extended (2-3 hours) plate chiller backwashing routines with lye-fortified PBW, during which the hop bags get "bleached" too.

If that beer is improving already, I'd say it's naturally maturing. I've had NEIPAs that were awesome right after burst carbonating the keg, but they really got into their own a few days later. Also allowed the very fine hop dust to settle out and purge away.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

yeah that all makes sense, ive been leaving my valve full open when drying and would open and close them periodically after cleaning. but ill definitely tear them apart and give them a good cleaning. i have a counterflow chiller, should i do more to clean/sanitize that? i ususally flush it both ways the run some star san through it. i typically heat my cleaning water to 170-180 and circulate for 15 to 20 minutes, should i do this longer? this convo should probably be in a different thread at this point as i have another question and that is, if you were sanitizing an 18gal conical how would you do it? just figured i would ask while you have been throwing me some good info. i have my way of doing things but that doesnt mean there are better ways out there.

 

[IslandLizard]

yeah that all makes sense, ive been leaving my valve full open when drying and would open and close them periodically after cleaning. but ill definitely tear them apart and give them a good cleaning. i have a counterflow chiller, should i do more to clean/sanitize that? i ususally flush it both ways the run some star san through it. i typically heat my cleaning water to 170-180 and circulate for 15 to 20 minutes, should i do this longer? this convo should probably be in a different thread at this point as i have another question and that is, if you were sanitizing an 18gal conical how would you do it? just figured i would ask while you have been throwing me some good info. i have my way of doing things but that doesnt mean there are better ways out there.

After rinsing/flushing it out, are you circulating hot (homemade) PBW or Oxiclean through your CFC? Starsan is a sanitizer, not a cleaner, it doesn't remove biofilm and other crud that may stick inside.

 

[IslandLizard]

this convo should probably be in a different thread at this point as i have another question and that is, if you were sanitizing an 18gal conical how would you do it?

You could do a search to see what's out here already.
But it won't hurt to start a separate thread on best ways to clean conicals. There must be different ways, hope to see some keen innovative ones.

Size makes a difference.
I clean my (small) 7 gallon stainless conical as if it were a bucket or kettle. I can pick it up and turn it over.

 

[hottpeper13]

So the valves are a great place to start. Do you know what a biofilm looks like? I do. When you look inside your stainless equipment and see a purple color, that is biofilm and it can cover diastaticus, pedio and lacto. Sometimes cip won't get everywhere and I do a mechanical scrubbing to get rid of it on my stainless. I seem to get it most on the kettle I use for making tea for kombucha. If your cip is leaving that purple on you can follow the pbw cip with an acid cip without rinsing the pbw. The neutralizing effect of the acid will create a lycing of the film.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

i dont recall ever noticing biofilm but i cant say that i was looking for it either. i plan to clean things down tomorrow as today is a work day for me so i will be sure to look for it before i start cleaning so i know how to approach it.

thanks

 

[Soulshine2]

Hi everyone, I am new to this forum and this is my first post so please bear with me.
Last week i kegged a 15gal batch of neipa, a recipe that i have brewed several times and love playing around with. this time everything went well as far as gravity readings and temperature. after kegging i noticed an slight off flavor which after going over everything and replaying my brewday in my mind i think the flavor is due to me forgetting to rinse my kettles after running pbw through after my previous brewday and therefore the cleaner was left in the kettles for this brew. stupid mistake and everything else about the beer is good and the batch isnt ruined. my question is i have harvested yeast from this batch and i know my fermenter was clean and sanitized and all. will that yeast have been compromised from my mistake or am i ok to use for my next batch?

depends,what was the off flavor ? last time I had an off flavor (the dreaded band-aid) it was due to too much chlorine in my brew water, since then Ive used 1/2 a campden/8 gallons strike water without any further issue.

 

[madscientist451]

I'm in Western PA, I'll stop by with an empty keg, you can fill it up and I'll give you a full report on the flavors!

But seriously, let others taste is and ask them if they notice anything, usually your buddies will say "its awsome" but then mention that you noticed something was off and ask if they notice anything wrong. If there are any home brew clubs around, take some to the next meeting and ask for honest opinions.
Perhaps you're just being too critical?
PS looks like a nice set up.
Brewing 15 gallon batches is somewhat pricey, you may want to change up how you handle your yeast. I've been making a starter, stepping it up to twice what I need then just using half of it in a brew. The remaining half of the starter is reserved for next time, and I just dump the yeast from the actual batch.
I don't know if this really helps or not but it seems logical and I've had some yeast in my yeast bank for several years without problems.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

thanks for the input, i have actually done the same things with my starter in the past when i was using carboy because it was easier then yeast washing so i could certainly go back to that process. i will be serving it later today to friends and family so we will see what they have to say about it. ill be in pittsburgh next weekend so ill probably be driving by you to get there