Yeast expiring - Wanna extent life.

[KettleCorn]

We have some (half a vial) Abbey Ale Yeast by White Labs and it has an Expire Date of Nov 11 2012.

We are planning to brew another Abbey late Nov or Dec... Do we just use it anyway or is there a way to extend its life?

I was thinking about making a little sugar water (think: a pinch of sugar in a tablespoon of water, boil, cool, and add it to the vial). Just a little bit of nurishment for an extra life extender....

Thoughts?

Wanna extent life.

 

[bottlebomber]

Make a starter and just put it away in a sanitized canning jar after the starter is finished.

 

[J187]

Make a starter and just put it away in a sanitized canning jar after the starter is finished.

Depending on what the gravity of that beer he's going to make, that Half-vile in a starter might not be any good to him at all. Might not even be worth making a starter.

It expires in nov, which means it's pro date is may right?

According to the pitching rate calculator, with a 2L starter and a stir plate, it would take 3 vials of what he's got to get 148 billion cells into a 1.040 wort... he's got half a vile, that means with a 2L starter he'd be rocking about 25 billion cells, wouldn't it?? Not worth it at all at that point IMO. IF, IF , IF my math is right.

 

[freisste]

Can't you make a starter, cool, decant, and "repitch" into a new starter (i think its called a stepped starter)?

Keep in mind, nobody is cloning yeast or creating them with a mixture of chemicals. Yeast reproduce. There isn't really a reason you can't do the exact same thing as Wyeast and White Labs... (They have a little better yeast handling equipment than the average - or any - homebrewer, but that doesn't make them magicians.)

 

[J187]

Can't you make a starter, cool, decant, and "repitch" into a new starter (i think its called a stepped starter)?

Keep in mind, nobody is cloning yeast or creating them with a mixture of chemicals. Yeast reproduce. There isn't really a reason you can't do the exact same thing as Wyeast and White Labs... (They have a little better yeast handling equipment than the average - or any - homebrewer, but that doesn't make them magicians.)

There is no reason why you can't, it's whether you want to. Do you want to spend the time or money on DME to step up a half of a vile of expired yeast? It's a question of return on investment, not just money, but time. Personally, I'd rather spend the $3 on a half vile of fresh yeast and make a starter with that and throw the half vile of expired yeast out or just pitch it as extra into something.

 

[Revvy]

Make a starter and just put it away in a sanitized canning jar after the starter is finished.

Exactly!

 

[J187]

Exactly!

But is it really worth it Revvy? Aren't you getting a tiny bit of viable yeast at this point for your effort?

 

[Revvy]

But is it really worth it Revvy? Aren't you getting a tiny bit of viable yeast at this point for your effort?

And then you are reproducing MORE yeast when you make a starter when you get ready to use it.

I think yeast viability is an over-rated fear. When you make a starter you reproduce the yeast. How do you think we bottle harvest enough yeast from the dregs in the bottom of a bottle of Rogue Dead Guy or whatever yeast to ferment a batch of beer?

 

[KettleCorn]

I questioned the Expiration Date of Yeast. It seemed more of a marketing gimmic to throw it out and buy new rather than a viability end date.

Starter sounds like a good idea. Will do.


What do you think about adding some sterile sugar water into the vial tube? Think "Mini Step Starter" prior to the Nov11 (marketing date) then in a month we'll do a "real" starter and brew a,,,, uhhh "normal"...

Or is that just a waste of time and effort. Better to leave it sealed and let it expire. Then use it as a starter.

I know this seems like a lot of effort and thought for a $8 bottle of yeast. But I am driven by curiosity over cash flow. Seems like Yeast are pretty tough and resilient and should be good past Nov 11

Thanks

 

[Golddiggie]

Just make a normal starter. Go with a 1L or even .5L starter now, let it finish then store it (as already stated). When you're closer to the brew day, make another starter to get the yeast cell count up, and such.

IMO, adding sugar water to the tube is a colossally BAD idea.

BTW, I have some WLP099 vials in the fridge that are about 10% viable by now. I'll be making a three step starter for the batch that I'll use them in. Using the yeastcalc.com tool to do so (great calc). You could also just wait for it to be closer to your brew day and do a two (or three) step starter far enough ahead. IF you have a stirplate, each step will be done faster than without. The longest step will be the first one. Just chill each step once finished (12-24 hours in the fridge), decant the spent starter and then add fresh starter for each step. Really not all that difficult, or involved.

 

[the_bird]

Can we back up a second - why do you have *half* a vial? Did you do a really small batch before? Did you make a starter with half, and save the other half? Do you have the other "half" of the vial sitting in a carboy with some fermented beer on top of it?

If you've already got an abbey ale brewed, can you time the new batch so you can snag your yeast right from that cake?

 

[kh54s10]

I would make a starter calculated to get about a billion cells. Store that in a sanitized mason jar. The use that day as the production date in a calculator to make a new starter when you start the new brew.

Mrmalty.com and Yeastcalc.com have good calculators.

BTW for White Labs the production date is four months prior to the expiration date. Also this does not mean all the yeast in the vial is dead. You could still make a starter.

 

[bottlebomber]

I dunno about all that yeast viability hooha. I mean I know there's some truth to it, but I don't believe there is some kind of a linear formula by which yeast die off.

 

[KettleCorn]

Can we back up a second - why do you have *half* a vial? Did you do a really small batch before? Did you make a starter with half, and save the other half? Do you have the other "half" of the vial sitting in a carboy with some fermented beer on top of it?

If you've already got an abbey ale brewed, can you time the new batch so you can snag your yeast right from that cake?

We make starters 24 to 48 hours before brew day. We use 1/2 a vial per brew starter. Said another way we get two 5gallon beer brews per vial.

We bottled and discarded the cake already. The Abbey from the first batch has been bottle conditioned for about 4 weeks now and is pretty darn good.

But the next brew is going to be a Brown Ale, then the brew date after that will be set with a nicely aged Abbey in hand to decide how we wanna modifiy it - hence the excepted next Abbey brew date will be 30 to 60 days from now.

We used to modifiy and brew the second batch right away. Sometimes prior to even tasting the first batch. We have learned that patience is your friend with all things beer related.

Cheers!

 

[Revvy]

I dunno about all that yeast viability hooha. I mean I know there's some truth to it, but I don't believe there is some kind of a linear formula by which yeast die off.

I don't think it's hooha as much as it's mitigated by making a starter. I think it is an issue if you're straight pitching liquid yeast as is into the fermenter ( which I don't think anyone should do anyway regardless of the gravity of the beer.)

 

[ACbrewer]

We make starters 24 to 48 hours before brew day. We use 1/2 a vial per brew starter. Said another way we get two 5gallon beer brews per vial.

Cheers!

I'd be concerned about the quality of the 1/2 vial. I mean they come out of the yeast factory 'clean' but once you open them anything goes. However, your yeast, and in that case, the starter idea mentioned by others is the best way to go. Giving the yeast simple sugars will just screw up their processing of malt later on.

 

[the_bird]

I guess I'm having a hard time understanding the perceived virtues of making the starter with only half the vial, versus making the starter with the whole vial and then collecting/saving the yeast from the first batch for the second (using the well-established yeast-collection procedures everyone uses).

I mean, whatever works for you, but it seems like it's more complicated and I'd also be more worried about having an opened vial in my fridge versus a nice collection of harvested yeast in a sanitized mason jar.

 

[ACbrewer]

I guess I'm having a hard time understanding the perceived virtues of making the starter with only half the vial, versus making the starter with the whole vial and then collecting/saving the yeast from the first batch for the second (using the well-established yeast-collection procedures everyone uses).

I mean, whatever works for you, but it seems like it's more complicated and I'd also be more worried about having an opened vial in my fridge versus a nice collection of harvested yeast in a sanitized mason jar.

OP responded that he'd already used 1/2 the vial in a previous batch and that is long bottled. In other words, he only has on hand 1/2 a vial.

 

[Golddiggie]

I guess I'm having a hard time understanding the perceived virtues of making the starter with only half the vial, versus making the starter with the whole vial and then collecting/saving the yeast from the first batch for the second (using the well-established yeast-collection procedures everyone uses).

I mean, whatever works for you, but it seems like it's more complicated and I'd also be more worried about having an opened vial in my fridge versus a nice collection of harvested yeast in a sanitized mason jar.

I think doing a stepped starter, to get the cell count needed for the total volume, then measuring out for each fermenter would be a better model. OR, just get a larger fermenter and do larger, single vessel fermenting. I have a 50L keg setup as a fermenter for just that use.

 

[the_bird]

OP responded that he'd already used 1/2 the vial in a previous batch and that is long bottled. In other words, he only has on hand 1/2 a vial.

... I know that. My question is related to what the perceived benefit was for making the starter that way, versus using the whole vial originally and collecting the yeast for this batch. His specific question has already been answered, I think - I'm more curious the rationale behind the whole approach.

 

[the_bird]

I think doing a stepped starter, to get the cell count needed for the total volume, then measuring out for each fermenter would be a better model. OR, just get a larger fermenter and do larger, single vessel fermenting. I have a 50L keg setup as a fermenter for just that use.

... but this is two separate beers, as I'm reading it.

 

[Golddiggie]

... but this is two separate beers, as I'm reading it.

Hmmmm... Could be.

Personally, I won't do that. Split a packet/vial of yeast between two brews. I'm not so hard up that I can't spring for a new vial/packet of yeast per starter, per batch. Depending on the size of the starter, the OP is probably underpitching the yeast by a good level.

I'm looking into being able to freeze yeast now. Seems like it's not as bad a process as I had thought. Provided I can score a pressure cooker that is.

 

[J187]

And then you are reproducing MORE yeast when you make a starter when you get ready to use it.

I think yeast viability is an over-rated fear. When you make a starter you reproduce the yeast. How do you think we bottle harvest enough yeast from the dregs in the bottom of a bottle of Rogue Dead Guy or whatever yeast to ferment a batch of beer?

I guess I'm having a hard time understanding the perceived virtues of making the starter with only half the vial, versus making the starter with the whole vial and then collecting/saving the yeast from the first batch for the second (using the well-established yeast-collection procedures everyone uses).

I mean, whatever works for you, but it seems like it's more complicated and I'd also be more worried about having an opened vial in my fridge versus a nice collection of harvested yeast in a sanitized mason jar.

This is what I was saying, given that it is 1/2 a vile AND that it's viability is somewhat diminished from being weeks away from expiration, the yeast calculators show that for a 1.5L starter with a stir plate, after the first step, you'd have approx 50 bill cells - or, half a vile of healthy yeast. So, if you believe the yeast calculators, you're going to the trouble of using 6oz of DME and spending the time making a starter, sitting it on a stir plate for a day, only to take a half vile of unhealthy yeast to a half vile of healthy yeast.

 

[the_bird]

Can we spell the world "vial" instead of "vile"? 'Cause a "vile of yeast" makes me think that we've got a nasty infection at work, and that's just bad beer-karma.

EDIT: Count me among those who are a little skeptical of the calculators - there are a LOT of unknown/unknowable variables at work (how well the yeast was cared for will have a big impact on how much of the vial is still viable, for example - that's *probably* even more important a variable as "time from production").

 

[J187]

Can we spell the world "vial" instead of "vile"? 'Cause a "vile of yeast" makes me think that we've got a nasty infection at work, and that's just bad beer-karma.

EDIT: Count me among those who are a little skeptical of the calculators - there are a LOT of unknown/unknowable variables at work (how well the yeast was cared for will have a big impact on how much of the vial is still viable, for example - that's *probably* even more important a variable as "time from production").

HA! Yea, this is exactly what happens when I post from my iphone and use the voice to text option. In one of the posts on here, the word "monkey" was in place of money I'm sure the calculators are not 100% with viability, but even if they are a little off... seems to me like if you are going to go to the trouble of making a starter, you should be starting with a full vial or pack of yeast OR, at the VERY least, if you are going to start with a half of one, make it a nearly 95% viable one. I mean, he's going to have to make a starter AND step it up just to get what he'd get if he made a starter from a full vial. That's just me.

 

[KettleCorn]

We have been using 1/2 Vials on our last 6 batches of beer. It works fine. We always make a starter. We have pretty good lab etiquette and are not overly concerned with this issue.

We get great yeast activity. We hit the eff% we expect. We get on or over (by a hair) on OG and we get +/-.002 on the FG. So we are ok with ½ Vial Yeast and the overall setup.

Rationale: It works. So, why not?

Cost: Yup, I am ok with laying down an extra $8 at the LHBS if that is what is needed. But if it is not needed, I’ll step the ½ Vial and brew beer… then, with the $8, I buy a bottle of Ommegang Abbey and drink that while we are brewing. Just to keep the funds within the beer industry

Thanks for the input and I don’t seem to hear anybody saying… “OMG are you trying to kill someone with expired yeast”

I felt that if there are a few good yeast, then we can make gobs of good yeast without too much effort.
Just posting here to make a sanity check.

 

[KettleCorn]

....to take a half vile of unhealthy yeast to a half vile of healthy yeast.

I am under the impression that expired just mean not viable. Very diffferent than unhealthy. Right?


Anyway, I think I had the answer early on with:

Originally Posted by bottlebomber
Make a starter and just put it away in a sanitized canning jar after the starter is finished.

Then I get 4 months agian, or at least another 2... right?

or the alternative which I like better:
I ignore the date and make a step starter (48 hours prior to brewing), then a starter 24hours before I brew and be done with it. Seems like less exposure is the better route... agreed?

 

[KettleCorn]

Just as a note:
$8 is much less effort than asking, commenting, thinking, processing, and asking more questions.
But learning about how yeast can be handled and stored and used and re-used - Priceless! (Ha.)

Thanks!

 

[dbrewski]

Can we spell the world "vial" instead of "vile"? 'Cause a "vile of yeast" makes me think that we've got a nasty infection at work, and that's just bad beer-karma.

Thank you.

 

[J187]

We have been using 1/2 Vials on our last 6 batches of beer. It works fine. We always make a starter. We have pretty good lab etiquette and are not overly concerned with this issue.

We get great yeast activity. We hit the eff% we expect. We get on or over (by a hair) on OG and we get +/-.002 on the FG. So we are ok with ½ Vial Yeast and the overall setup.

Rationale: It works. So, why not?

Cost: Yup, I am ok with laying down an extra $8 at the LHBS if that is what is needed. But if it is not needed, I’ll step the ½ Vial and brew beer… then, with the $8, I buy a bottle of Ommegang Abbey and drink that while we are brewing. Just to keep the funds within the beer industry

Thanks for the input and I don’t seem to hear anybody saying… “OMG are you trying to kill someone with expired yeast”

I felt that if there are a few good yeast, then we can make gobs of good yeast without too much effort.
Just posting here to make a sanity check.

Yeast isn't only about hitting your final gravity. Under pitching can still negatively effect your beer, regardless of whether or not your beer attenuates fully.

 

[KettleCorn]

Yeast isn't only about hitting your final gravity. Under pitching can still negatively effect your beer, regardless of whether or not your beer attenuates fully.

How do you know if you have underpitched?
What are some of the negative effects?

We get very vigorous yeast activity. We "feel" fairly confident that we are still overpitching with 1/2 Vial. And the visual activity and duration seems no different than a full vial.

Just curious.

 

[KettleCorn]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From White Lab's website:

What is the shelf life of White Labs Yeast?

Quick Answer: 4 Months
Long Answer: Yeast is a living organism. As such, it needs to be in the right conditions to survive. Dry yeast can stay alive for one year, but yeast left in liquid form, even though it's a better product in terms of taste and performance, is more perishable. At White Labs, we are constantly working on our recipe to maximize the viability of the yeast in long term storage. The longer we can make the yeast last in the vial, the better shape it will be in for fermentation. After 30 days in the vial, the viability of our yeast is 75-85%, which is very high for liquid yeast. Yeast that is harvested after a brewery fermentation will typically have a viability of less then 50% after 30 days. Our high viability is due to the health of the yeast and nutrient content of our liquid at packaging. After 6 weeks, lag time before active fermentation is usually between 15-20 hours. The shelf life for White Labs Yeast is four months. Yeast used after this point is usually fine, but lag times will be longer. There will be living yeast in most vials for 6-12 months, so if a starter is made to activate the yeast, successful fermentations can be carried out with aged yeast.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

:facepalm: They really need to make an icon for that.

 

[Golddiggie]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From White Lab's website:

What is the shelf life of White Labs Yeast?

Quick Answer: 4 Months
Long Answer: Yeast is a living organism. As such, it needs to be in the right conditions to survive. Dry yeast can stay alive for one year, but yeast left in liquid form, even though it's a better product in terms of taste and performance, is more perishable. At White Labs, we are constantly working on our recipe to maximize the viability of the yeast in long term storage. The longer we can make the yeast last in the vial, the better shape it will be in for fermentation. After 30 days in the vial, the viability of our yeast is 75-85%, which is very high for liquid yeast. Yeast that is harvested after a brewery fermentation will typically have a viability of less then 50% after 30 days. Our high viability is due to the health of the yeast and nutrient content of our liquid at packaging. After 6 weeks, lag time before active fermentation is usually between 15-20 hours. The shelf life for White Labs Yeast is four months. Yeast used after this point is usually fine, but lag times will be longer. There will be living yeast in most vials for 6-12 months, so if a starter is made to activate the yeast, successful fermentations can be carried out with aged yeast.

Which is exactly why I'm planning a three step starter schedule for the two vials of WLP099 I have (dated for use by March 2012 I believe). I've already built in the longer lag time for the first starter step into my schedule.

BTW, I make starters for every batch of beer I brew. Even if I get yeast that's very fresh (less than a month old) I'll make a starter for the batch. IMO, using a couple hundred grams of DME, making the starter a few days ahead of the brew day, is well worth doing.

 

[KettleCorn]

Which is exactly why I'm planning a three step starter schedule for the two vials of WLP099 I have (dated for use by March 2012 I believe). I've already built in the longer lag time for the first starter step into my schedule. .

Excellent!

BTW, I make starters for every batch of beer I brew. Even if I get yeast that's very fresh (less than a month old) I'll make a starter for the batch. IMO, using a couple hundred grams of DME, making the starter a few days ahead of the brew day, is well worth doing.

Agreed! Me too.
thanks.

 

[Revvy]

Bobby M did a test on year old stored yeast here; https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/testing-limits-yeast-viability-126707/

And my LHBS cells outdated tubes and packs of yeast dirt cheap 2-3 dollars each and I usually grab a couple tubes of belgian or other interesting yeast when I am there and shove it in my fridge. and I have never had a problem with one of those tubes.

I usually make a starter but I once pitched a year old tube of Belgian High Gravity yeast directly into a 2.5 gallon batch of a Belgian Dark Strong, and after about 4 days it took off beautifully.
The purpose of a starter is to reproduce any viable cells in a batch of yeast....that;s how we can grow a starter form the dregs in a bottle of beer incrementally...and that beer may be months old.

 

[Revvy]

:facepalm: They really need to make an icon for that.

You mean like this?

 

[nmfree]

:facepalm: They really need to make an icon for that.

I've always thought

worked pretty well.