So I've had a vial of liquid white lab yeast in the refridgerator for about two weeks now and I've noticed it now has a brown layer on top of the yeast cake, maybe 2 millimeters thick. It's expiration date is August 29th and I don't want to make a starter. I'm brewing a wheat beer so I want a long lag time. What do you guys think? Is it expired or do you think I'm good to go?
Yeast expired or still good?
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Yes.
flars
Well-Known Member
A couple of days ago there was a thread about someone finding brown specks in their starter. They were wondering if it was scorched DME.
White labs said it was normal for brown specks to be in some yeasts. You are probably okay if the yeast had been handled properly.
White labs said it was normal for brown specks to be in some yeasts. You are probably okay if the yeast had been handled properly.
Liquid yeast will lose about 20% of their cells per month. In theory a one month old tube would contain about 80 billion a 2 month old tube about 64 billion, a 3 month old tube about 51 billion, and so on.
It really all comes down to the gravity of your beer in question. For a 1.040 beer you need about 150 billion cells. For a 1.050 beer you need 185 billion. Either way, you need a starter to get there if you want to pitch at the proper rate.
**EDIT**
GilaMinumBeer and flars both said you are good to go. I don't want to hijack your thread, but I'm very curios as to why they don't think you need a starter. Is it just because this is a wheat beer that he wants a lot of ester character in? I only have experience with WLP300 and have always used 2L starters with it. I have always got what I considered prominent ester profiles using this method. Would I typically be better off by under pitching that strain? Again, sorry to hijack!
I'm not sure Gilaminumbeer meant what you think he meant. But maybe he did mean what you thought he meant, and he meant something different then what I thought he meant.
Know what I mean?
I would make a starter. I don't know why you'd "want a long lag time" just because it's a wheat beer? Wheat does tend to make yeasts take off, so just dial back the ferment temp to keep it from gettting out of control. Long lag times are signs of stressed yeast, or over oxygenation. The latter is almost never a problem in homebrew settings.
I'm not sure Gilaminumbeer meant what you think he meant. But maybe he did mean what you thought he meant, and he meant something different then what I thought he meant.
Know what I mean?
OK, that was my understanding, but I wanted to make sure. He mentioned not wanting to make a starter and was told he was fine so I thought maybe it was common to heavily under pitch hefe yeast to some benefit. I'm amazed how often I learn new information on these forums when I wasn't even searching for it. Thanks for the reply
![Craft A Brew - Safale S-04 Dry Yeast - Fermentis - English Ale Dry Yeast - For English and American Ales and Hard Apple Ciders - Ingredients for Home Brewing - Beer Making Supplies - [1 Pack]](https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41fVGNh6JfL._SL500_.jpg)
They just said the yeast is still good. They did not address the proper pitch rates.
White labs production dates are 6 months preceding the expiration date.
If you use a starter calculator and make a starter you can use yeast quite a bit past the expiration date.
OK, that was my understanding, but I wanted to make sure. He mentioned not wanting to make a starter and was told he was fine so I thought maybe it was common to heavily under pitch hefe yeast to some benefit. I'm amazed how often I learn new information on these forums when I wasn't even searching for it. Thanks for the reply
Glad to reply. The first part was me trying to be funny. Sometimes I succeed, but sometimes I just come off as drunk. LOL...
catdaddy66
Well-Known Member
My LHBS just sold me 5 vials of White Labs yeast that was less than a month past the date (half price!!) but a starter is needed to increase cell count to avoid under pitching.
I never used to make starters but I do now for every batch! When I used dry yeast the airlock would bubble after about 30 hours but with my starters it is more like 4 hours! Very exciting
Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew
I never used to make starters but I do now for every batch! When I used dry yeast the airlock would bubble after about 30 hours but with my starters it is more like 4 hours! Very exciting
Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew
Thanks for all the input guys. I'm pretty sure the yeast is viable now. Thinking bout using two vials, but still thinkin
As far as the starter goes, the reason I don't think I'll make a starter is that I've heard that during the lag time the yeast is reproducing and that's when they create all those fruity esters you want in your hefe. You're right though, I bet if the reason for the long lag time is old yeast or something like that where it's because of a problem, then it doesn't contribute much to more esters though. In fact, the owner of the home brew supply store that I go to (Adventures in Homebrewing in Michigan) doesn't use starters for any of his wheat beers as well. I still have an open mind though, so please discuss this with me. I don't pretend to know everything or even a whole lot bout brewing
As far as the starter goes, the reason I don't think I'll make a starter is that I've heard that during the lag time the yeast is reproducing and that's when they create all those fruity esters you want in your hefe. You're right though, I bet if the reason for the long lag time is old yeast or something like that where it's because of a problem, then it doesn't contribute much to more esters though. In fact, the owner of the home brew supply store that I go to (Adventures in Homebrewing in Michigan) doesn't use starters for any of his wheat beers as well. I still have an open mind though, so please discuss this with me. I don't pretend to know everything or even a whole lot bout brewing
Wyeast prints the production date on the smack pack and White labs prints a(n expiration) date as was said above, 6 months after production date. So the closer it gets to that date, viability is lower.
Now, I had a wyeast pack of 1033 German Ale that was dated last December. I was not ready to use it by the end of May, and figured it was no good. But I followed the Wyeast lab techs advice and smacked it. It was fully swollen in 6 hours. I put it in a 1L starter and it aggressively propogated. Lesson learned. Old yeast is rarely as dead as all the calculators say. Especially if it was kept cold.
I had a good discussion with him about this. Namely that homebrewers, now, tend to make starters more often than necessary and too big. In doing so, they ensure a short lag time and reduce the chance of infection. And thus, by too short of a lag time, remove a lot of the properties of the yeast, flavors and phenols, that they would otherwise get with a lag time of about 24 hours. And thats exactly what a hefe brewer is looking for (banana and clove). Keeping the ferm temp right around 68 helps to get those too. FWIW
"Sometimes Im right half of the time ...."
Now, I had a wyeast pack of 1033 German Ale that was dated last December. I was not ready to use it by the end of May, and figured it was no good. But I followed the Wyeast lab techs advice and smacked it. It was fully swollen in 6 hours. I put it in a 1L starter and it aggressively propogated. Lesson learned. Old yeast is rarely as dead as all the calculators say. Especially if it was kept cold.
I had a good discussion with him about this. Namely that homebrewers, now, tend to make starters more often than necessary and too big. In doing so, they ensure a short lag time and reduce the chance of infection. And thus, by too short of a lag time, remove a lot of the properties of the yeast, flavors and phenols, that they would otherwise get with a lag time of about 24 hours. And thats exactly what a hefe brewer is looking for (banana and clove). Keeping the ferm temp right around 68 helps to get those too. FWIW
"Sometimes Im right half of the time ...."
flars
Well-Known Member
Shelf life of White Labs yeast is 4 months from the production date.
I didn't comment on OP wanting a long lag time. I don't tell someone they are wrong if they have a technique that works for them. Even if it is different than what I typically do. If OP had asked about a starter I would have said it is usually a good thing.
Hefes was mentioned. I typically over pitch for my Hefes. Minimizes the banana flavor and increases the clove using WY3068. That's just me. May not be to style, but I like the taste.
I didn't comment on OP wanting a long lag time. I don't tell someone they are wrong if they have a technique that works for them. Even if it is different than what I typically do. If OP had asked about a starter I would have said it is usually a good thing.
Hefes was mentioned. I typically over pitch for my Hefes. Minimizes the banana flavor and increases the clove using WY3068. That's just me. May not be to style, but I like the taste.
This makes me want to do an experiment to see the results of under pitching a hefe yeast vs normal pitching. Unfortunately I broke one of my fermentation chambers so I can't ferment two beers at once until I find a new one. 
I think I made an error at saying six months. I do believe that the production date is 4 not 6 months before the expiration date. Using the production date and a calculator will give you an idea of the viable cells remaining in an older package and from there what size a starter you need for a certain gravity brew.
That is not to say that is the "shelf life". There will be some viable cells after the expiration date, but you would definitely need to make a starter to increase the cell counts.
I haven't experimented with underpitching or overpitching to produce any desired flavors.
flars
Well-Known Member
No, not an error. Wyeast has a best by date of 6 months after production. White Labs is the different one.
