Wyeast 3724 Belgian Saison - they were right!

[g-star]

After 11 days the SG was 1.017 and it slowly chomped on those last points over the next three weeks. FG of 1.002 after a 5 week primary.

I never experienced a stall, and I think the key was a huge starter, yeast nutrient, ramping up the temperature, and patience.

Uhhh...if it needed 5 weeks to reach FG, then you had a stall.

This strain should take 5-7 days to reach terminal gravity (< 1.005) with wort of modest density - if the fermentation is handled correctly.

 

[secondbase]

I took gravity readings every five days and each time it was lower than the last. The yeast never stopped doing their thing. It passed the dreaded 1.03 stall spot and kept chugging along. It was done after four weeks, but I gave it an extra week to see if it would drop another point.

 

[ne0t0ky0]

Uhhh...if it needed 5 weeks to reach FG, then you had a stall.

This strain should take 5-7 days to reach terminal gravity (< 1.005) with wort of modest density - if the fermentation is handled correctly.

If the beer tastes really nice, then the fermentation was handled correctly, whether or not it when quickly or slowly.

In the Farmhouse Ales book where the author writes quite a bit specifically about the Dupont strain, you'll note that Dupont ferments hot and fast because of the brewery needs (capacity), not because the beer tastes better that way.

Can you make Dupont ferment fast? you bet. Can it get "stuck"? yep. Does it really matter? Not really; it's a matter of time and personal taste.

 

[sweetcell]

This strain should take 5-7 days to reach terminal gravity (< 1.005) with wort of modest density - if the fermentation is handled correctly.

what is your approach to handling this strain correctly?

 

[beergolf]

Uhhh...if it needed 5 weeks to reach FG, then you had a stall.

This strain should take 5-7 days to reach terminal gravity (< 1.005) with wort of modest density - if the fermentation is handled correctly.

Not necessarily true. Some Belgian yeasts can take off fast and then just slow down and take along time to get the last few points of attenuation. This yeast can do that. The other yeast that is famous for that is 3787. These are both yeasts that cannot be rushed. Yeasts are living creatures that do not punch a time clock.

 

[m00ps]

I've used this yeast a number of times and I've never had a stall. I pitch in the mid 60s, let it free rise, then maybe 36 hrs after visible fermentation starts I crank it up 7 or 8 degrees per day to the 90s. At this point I'll add any syrups or additional sugars and leave it up there until it finishes. I take it back down at least 2 days before bottling

 

[beergolf]

I've used this yeast a number of times and I've never had a stall. I pitch in the mid 60s, let it free rise, then maybe 36 hrs after visible fermentation starts I crank it up 7 or 8 degrees per day to the 90s. At this point I'll add any syrups or additional sugars and leave it up there until it finishes. I take it back down at least 2 days before bottling

Same for me, but I don't crank it up that fast. I do 2 degrees in the morning and 2 more in the evening, until I hit 90. Always finishes low. I do give it plenty of time to be sure it is finished before bottling. I like my Saisons highly carbed, so I want to be 100% sure they are done before bottling. That way I can carb them how I like them without fears of them ticking off another few points in the bottle.

 

[biertourist]

I'm going to jump on the bandwagon to report that despite highly elevated and even upward fermentation temps I could not get the Belgian Saison strain to avoid the dreaded 1.030-1.035 lag.

I'll also report some fairly unpleasant phenolics from the high temp fermentation. (Read Jamil's advice on Saison fermentation temps in BCS; he has the same feedback.)

Denny Conn and Drew Beechum's "Experimental Homebrewing" states that the key to preventing the Dupont fermentation stall is pressure -do an open ferment with it. I haven't tried that but I'm considering it.


Personally my conspiracy theory is that this yeast strain pumps out so much acid early on (watch it with the pH meter) as a tactic to out compete other microorganisms that it shocks itself with rapid pH drop. But I'm willing to give an open ferment a try...



Also everyone on here should try Omega Yeast's new cross-breed "Saisonstein's Monster" which purports to be a cross breed of the Belgian and French saison strains with a focus on getting Dupont's flavor profile but without the dreaded fermentation stall.

I'll also point out that the differences in experiences with the "Dupont" strain could simply be because Wyeast and White Labs strains are different; this would certainly not be the first time that Wyeast and White Lab's versions of a yeast have drifted apart from each other...



Adam

 

[biertourist]

If the beer tastes really nice, then the fermentation was handled correctly, whether or not it when quickly or slowly.

In the Farmhouse Ales book where the author writes quite a bit specifically about the Dupont strain, you'll note that Dupont ferments hot and fast because of the brewery needs (capacity), not because the beer tastes better that way.

Can you make Dupont ferment fast? you bet. Can it get "stuck"? yep. Does it really matter? Not really; it's a matter of time and personal taste.

Yep. Jamil talks about his bad experiences with trying to ferment the Dupont strain at high temps and seems to feel that the idea that Dupont actually ferments their beer at extraordinarily high temps is a home brewing myth. (Pretty strong statement from a guy with more Ninkasi awards than anyone alive.)


Adam

 

[g-star]

what is your approach to handling this strain correctly?

I pitch 1M cells/ml/*Plato into well oxygenated wort at 68F. I hold at 68F for about 36hrs until krausen just begins to drop, and then add about 1lb of plain sugar (as a pre-boiled syryup) per 5 gallons directly to the fermentor, and then raise the temperature by 2F every 12 hours until it hits 80F. I hold it at 80F until final gravity, which is usually < 1.005 around the day 6-7 mark.

This approach has yet to fail me with the DuPont strain.

 

[m00ps]

Also everyone on here should try Omega Yeast's new cross-breed "Saisonstein's Monster" which purports to be a cross breed of the Belgian and French saison strains with a focus on getting Dupont's flavor profile but without the dreaded fermentation stall.
Adam

I recently tried it in a Rye Saison and loved the results.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f71/no-rye-more-reason-saison-507755/

 

[heckofagator]

I was going to go get some ingredients for a raspberry saison today but just came across this thread. I'm not sure if I want to go buy a heating pad, etc, just to get this stuff to ferment. Even though we're in FL, its still cool and without heating, I'm going to have some issues.

Is it better to maybe wait to brew this until summer, when I can stick it in a 90 degree garage and let it go?

I'll call the local brew house to see if they have the Omega yeast, but not sure if they will.

 

[sweetcell]

another option is to use a secondary yeast to finish up what Dupont is slow to do. 3711 or Belle Saison dry yeast are good options. wait for the dupont to slow down completely, then get the second yeast active in a liter of wort (DME is fine) for 24-36 hours before pitching.

 

[suprchunk]

Definitely rouse. I attach my co2 hose to a sanitized racking cane to push co2 to the bottom of the carboy. This is more effective than swirling and it pushes any o2 out of the carboy since you are bubbling co2 up from the bottom.

co2 rousing and high temp, 85-90 was what worked for me.

How's rousing with CO2 more effective? Some sort of facts to back that up please!?! I'm not sure how swirling isn't more effective as it moves the entire mass. Rousing with CO2 would only concentrate in one area, and not too much mass would be move. I would imagine moving the entire yeast cake instead of little sections would prove more effective. But since you keep repeating yourself I'm sure you have some hard facts and numbers to back it up.

 

[ne0t0ky0]

How's rousing with CO2 more effective? Some sort of facts to back that up please!?! I'm not sure how swirling isn't more effective as it moves the entire mass. Rousing with CO2 would only concentrate in one area, and not too much mass would be move. I would imagine moving the entire yeast cake instead of little sections would prove more effective. But since you keep repeating yourself I'm sure you have some hard facts and numbers to back it up.

We're using different methods to achieve the same thing; re-suspending the yeast into the beer.

I connect my co2 tank host to a racking cane and turn it on. I then the racking cane into the carboy all the way to the bottom and rotate the cane across the bottom of the carboy. The co2 gas breaks up the entire yeast cake and helps suspend the yeast in to the beer.

I read about the technique[1] used when dry-hopping IPAs for probrewers. They can't really swirl up a conical, so after adding pellets on day 1, on day 2 they would inject co2 into the conical to re-suspend the hop pellets to increase oil/aroma extraction. The technique is also documented in _Yeast_, by White and Zainasheff, page, 274:

Rouse the yeast. Either carefully blow carbon dioxide up through the bottom of the fermentation tank, or when using a smaller homebrew fermenter, you can tilt it on edge and swirl the beer.

Since I didn't do a test with swirl-vs-co2 rouse; I can't say one is better than the other; and I don't think I've indicated that it is; only that it's been very successful for me. It's super simple to hook up my racking cane to co2 and push to re-suspend then swirling carboys. My personal experience is documented here[2].

1. _IPA_ , by Mitch Steele, pg 261 in Avery Dugana Recipe
2. http://hoplauncher.woxford.com/2013/05/20/working-with-dupont-yeast-3724/

 

[suprchunk]

I'm aware of what it is and why it's used. Was just wondering why you kept repeating your CO2 method when we as homebrewers have it easy in that we can literally swirl the vessel. Much easier, at least in my case in my buckets - not my conical, to swirl it. Not having to worry about having a tube/hose stuck in my vessel the entire time. In my situation it would be somewhat difficult. Now if I were using my carboys and carboy cap with dip tube in it...

Not sure why you were quoting some passages that don't prove which is better?

 

[tagz]

No need to be antagonistic.

 

[ne0t0ky0]

I'm aware of what it is and why it's used. Was just wondering why you kept repeating your CO2 method when we as homebrewers have it easy in that we can literally swirl the vessel.

I think I'm in good company when I say most homebrewer's here post information on techniques that have worked well for them. I've had great success with using co2 to rouse my yeast. Positive confirmation from other homebrewers on which techniques work for them allows our members to pick and choose which method suits their situation best.

Much easier, at least in my case in my buckets - not my conical, to swirl it. Not having to worry about having a tube/hose stuck in my vessel the entire time. In my situation it would be somewhat difficult. Now if I were using my carboys and carboy cap with dip tube in it...

Sounds like swirling works best for you. Great! I've got carboys. I've got a racking cane that I leave in a bucket of StarSan and a spare co2 cylinder sitting next to my fridge where the carboy ferments. I just grab the cane, connect to my co2 hose turn on the gas and I'm rousing! Different situation, different method; I'm guessing the same result.

Not sure why you were quoting some passages that don't prove which is better?

Your previous reply had language that sounded as if you doubted whether co2 rousing would be effective.

Rousing with CO2 would only concentrate in one area, and not too much mass would be move.

I wasn't quoting sources to establish whether one method was better, but rather to confirm that the method was sound and in-use by professionals. If co2 rousing wasn't effective then I posit that it would not be in use, much less documented in brewing literature.

Many of our homebrewing techniques are adapted from professional brewing. Co2 rousing is one of them.

I think we've beaten the horse enough here. We're in violent agreement that the Dupont strain can get "stuck" and a good technique for getting fermentation going again is to "rouse the yeast" by whatever physical method works best for folks given their equipment.

Here's to the next batch of 3724!

 

[suprchunk]

Your previous reply had language that sounded as if you doubted whether co2 rousing would be effective.

I can see that now. Sorry. I was just wanting to know if you had data that proved CO2 rousing was more effective than simply swirling. As the language, at least how I was seeing it, seemed to imply that.

 

[thed163]

I am rehatchign an old thread. I used 3724 in an IPA because the temps were way too hot for decent ale yeast... this was 2 weeks ago.

It was 90 then. It's not dropping to 55 or less at night. I have my IPA w the 3724 in the closet (third floor, so a bit warmer) and wrapped in 3 winter coats.
Fermometer on fermenter reads somewhere around 76-78 usually. I figured that means, my brew is sitting around 81-88? which sounds good.

It's been going for 10 days now, and strong. I didn't realize how long of a commitment 3724 was. Any cause for concern? Should I buy a heat jacket asap? ...HALP!

 

[MrFancyPlants]

If it is stalled out, I sure would be tempted to finish it up with an ale yeast rather than having to try and heat it up. I would think the results could be quite pleasant. If it is still chugging then by all means...

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

I am rehatchign an old thread. I used 3724 in an IPA because the temps were way too hot for decent ale yeast... this was 2 weeks ago.

It was 90 then. It's not dropping to 55 or less at night. I have my IPA w the 3724 in the closet (third floor, so a bit warmer) and wrapped in 3 winter coats.
Fermometer on fermenter reads somewhere around 76-78 usually. I figured that means, my brew is sitting around 81-88? which sounds good.

It's been going for 10 days now, and strong. I didn't realize how long of a commitment 3724 was. Any cause for concern? Should I buy a heat jacket asap? ...HALP!

What is the current gravity? Sometimes its less of a concern if you managed to squeeze out the majority of 3724s attenuation capabilities. Average attenuation for 3724 is listed at 80%, people regularly report 85-90%. If you are already hitting 80% though you probably have nothing to worry about, the yeast will keep on trucking and no special precautions really need to be taken. Often people report issues with it getting stuck at 1.030ish or so. If you are around this then special precautions should be taken.

If its in an opaque fermenter, like a stainless steel one, you could take a bendy lamp and set the light right next to fermenter and point it at it. The light will provide quite a bit of residual heat. I have a stainless steel fermenter so I can get away with this without light skunking a beer (this is of course if you feel comfortable leaving a lamp on for a week or longer). I can usually keep my saisons above 80 for the first week of primary fermentation.

If you dont mind spending the money, buying the heat jacket might not be a bad idea in general if you like saisons then you can provide a stable heat.

 

[thed163]

What is the current gravity? Sometimes its less of a concern if you managed to squeeze out the majority of 3724s attenuation capabilities. Average attenuation for 3724 is listed at 80%, people regularly report 85-90%. If you are already hitting 80% though you probably have nothing to worry about, the yeast will keep on trucking and no special precautions really need to be taken. Often people report issues with it getting stuck at 1.030ish or so. If you are around this then special precautions should be taken.

If its in an opaque fermenter, like a stainless steel one, you could take a bendy lamp and set the light right next to fermenter and point it at it. The light will provide quite a bit of residual heat. I have a stainless steel fermenter so I can get away with this without light skunking a beer (this is of course if you feel comfortable leaving a lamp on for a week or longer). I can usually keep my saisons above 80 for the first week of primary fermentation.

If you dont mind spending the money, buying the heat jacket might not be a bad idea in general if you like saisons then you can provide a stable heat.

So, I haven't taken a gravity reading... I figured at least 2 weeks before a reading, and no airlock activity... Then it dawned on me that if I'm cold in the morning, the beer is cold in the morning.

It's been bubbling since 9/15 at this point. It's roaring, no signs of slowing down, lots of little bubbles when I check on it in the airlock.

I am waiting on my refractometer to arrive this weekend I hope. Can you take a SG reading while fermentation is going on? (this is my 3rd batch, I'm a bit green here)

 

[m00ps]

So, I haven't taken a gravity reading... I figured at least 2 weeks before a reading, and no airlock activity... Then it dawned on me that if I'm cold in the morning, the beer is cold in the morning.

It's been bubbling since 9/15 at this point. It's roaring, no signs of slowing down, lots of little bubbles when I check on it in the airlock.

I am waiting on my refractometer to arrive this weekend I hope. Can you take a SG reading while fermentation is going on? (this is my 3rd batch, I'm a bit green here)

during active fermentation there is no point in taking a gravity reading because you know its still going to drop significantly. wait at least a few days after airlock activity ceases to check out how its doing

 

[thed163]

during active fermentation there is no point in taking a gravity reading because you know its still going to drop significantly. wait at least a few days after airlock activity ceases to check out how its doing

This was my thoughts. And if it's way too high, I can still save it with some other yeast starter?

I will say, it smells incredible. I just have real high hopes for my first brew that I took off the beaten path.

m00ps, as for heat? Leave it as is? Don't worry? My original plan was 3711, I grabbed what I thought was 3711 (it was in the 3711 section of the fridge) and then got home to find it was 3724 and they had no 3711. So, instead of quick and easy, I got long and drawn out. And the temps dropped DRASTICALLY this week. 90 at beginningof the week, 60 now.

 

[m00ps]

hmm thats not good. Saison yeast actually do their best in the 90s, but temp swings arent good for any type of yeast. The only beer to date I made that tasted like liquid bandaids was from daily temp swings between 65 and 75. You could warm it back up to make sure it finishes since 3724 is notorious for stalling. JUst be sure it stays there. If you do get fusels and off flavors, they can age out sometimes but it takes a long time (+4months for mine)

best idea is next time to insulate the fermentor to both trap in heat and keep the temp more steady

 

[thed163]

hmm thats not good. Saison yeast actually do their best in the 90s, but temp swings arent good for any type of yeast. The only beer to date I made that tasted like liquid bandaids was from daily temp swings between 65 and 75. You could warm it back up to make sure it finishes since 3724 is notorious for stalling. JUst be sure it stays there. If you do get fusels and off flavors, they can age out sometimes but it takes a long time (+4months for mine)

best idea is next time to insulate the fermentor to both trap in heat and keep the temp more steady

fermometer has steadily read 76-78 once it cooled. Which I think is still pretty warm for the actual temps of the wort... and it's got 3 winter jackets wrapped aroudn it. I think it's doing fairly well/steady... It hasn't stalled at all yet, that's why I'm wondering.

Maybe I'll buy a heat jacket and keep it on it. when the temps were up, I did not have the jackets on it. It was about 82 in the closet I'm keeping it in. Temps of weather have been drastic, but for the beer, not too bad I don't think.

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

during active fermentation there is no point in taking a gravity reading because you know its still going to drop significantly. wait at least a few days after airlock activity ceases to check out how its doing

Well, I think that a 72 hour post-krausen formation reading isnt a bad plan either. You may still have activity in the airlock, but its good to know if you are in trouble or not. It depends on how you define 'active' fermentation. I like to know if I am in trouble and need to take actions or not to help coax more attenuation. If I am looking at 45-60 seconds between bubbles in the air lock, and the yeast is starting to shut down, example a black IPA I did recently, read at 1.020 72 hours post pitch, even if I got a couple more points, I'm looking at a 1.015 FG which is definitely a shade on the sweet side. Before the yeast completely poop out on me I want to rouse, add some invert sugar, and maybe warm it up a little.

If they completely shut down and start dropping out, it becomes that much harder to coax them back into action.

 

[thed163]

Well, I think that a 72 hour post-krausen formation reading isnt a bad plan either. You may still have activity in the airlock, but its good to know if you are in trouble or not. It depends on how you define 'active' fermentation. I like to know if I am in trouble and need to take actions or not to help coax more attenuation. If I am looking at 45-60 seconds between bubbles in the air lock, and the yeast is starting to shut down, example a black IPA I did recently, read at 1.020 72 hours post pitch, even if I got a couple more points, I'm looking at a 1.015 FG which is definitely a shade on the sweet side. Before the yeast completely poop out on me I want to rouse, add some invert sugar, and maybe warm it up a little.

If they completely shut down and start dropping out, it becomes that much harder to coax them back into action.

This is why I'm thinking I might be good. 9 or 10 days in and krausen still on top, airlock bubbling, etc... is this wrong? Or maybe not as simple as I'm thinking it is?

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

This is why I'm thinking I might be good. 9 or 10 days in and krausen still on top, airlock bubbling, etc... is this wrong? Or maybe not as simple as I'm thinking it is?

No theres nothing wrong with that as long as theirs no off smells that could be an indicator of an infection. I cant remember if you said you pitched a starter or just a smack pack. When I was pitching just solo-smack packs I would tend to have a long period of activity, when I am pitching big starters the activity quickly drops off between 72 and 96 hours. Its not unusual for saisons to show activity for a long period of time.

The gravity check also gives you a chance to taste and see if theres any flavor/aroma qualities that could indicate infections or other problems.