Wyeast 3724 Belgian Saison Stall

[duncan.brown]

Be sure to use the same pitch rate.

Yes, I will. I will probably get a cheap haemocytometer to do cell counts. It's been on the list for a while.

 

[VikeMan]

Legend has it that the Dupont strain stalls because of the pressure produced by the airlock...but the amount of pressure that this produces is extremely negligible.

Approx 1/400 of an atmosphere, according to one physicist I trust. IOW, less than random fluctuations.

If this were the case, a weather storm would cause this yeast to stall due to pressure changes...hard to believe.

Virtually impossible to believe, IMO. Particularly when you consider the strain easily carbonates up to 4-ish volumes of CO2 (a la Saison Dupont), ramping up to more than 50 PSI near the end.

 

[duncan.brown]

Legend has it that the Dupont strain stalls because of the pressure produced by the airlock...but the amount of pressure that this produces is extremely negligible. If this were the case, a weather storm would cause this yeast to stall due to pressure changes...hard to believe.

Yeah, the pressure hypothesis is one that I find hard to believe based on some simple math. The pressure from 2" of water is 0.07 psi or about 4 millibars. The atmospheric pressure has changed by more than that in Syracuse over the last 48 hours.

I have the heat belt on the fermenter now to bring it back to 80F. Let's see what happens.

 

[Vale71]

If I had a stall, I would try to agitate the fermenter, warm it up a bit, and perhaps add a bit of oxygen as long as there is still quite a bit left to ferment.

You might as well dump the batch right away as any oxygen you might introduce once fermentation is under way won't fix any issues you're having with it and will completely ruin your beer before it's even fully fermented.
Truth is there is no observable difference between fermenting with and without an airlock. Those who swear they've observed it are actually just perpetuating an urban legend.

 

[Vale71]

The arguments you made (adaption of the yeast from pure culture to the wort) are consistent with the published literature on yeast physiology, so the hypothesis can't simply be dismissed as one not worth testing.

Actually the argument he made is that the yeast has to adapt to your "brew setup". He then made it pretty clear that he has no idea what that actually means.

 

[Kenmoron]

You might as well dump the batch right away as any oxygen you might introduce once fermentation is under way won't fix any issues you're having with it and will completely ruin your beer before it's even fully fermented.

If this were the case, open fermentation would not be a thing. You might have a hard time convincing Anchor Brewing, Sam Smith, Schneider Weisse, among others.

 

[duncan.brown]

When I started this thread I didn't expect it to be quite so controversial! My take aways are:

• My data shows that my 3724 has slowed. It's still slow. Letting the temperature drop seems to be the one thing that's been pointed to in my process that could be a culprit for this.
• Pitches of subsequent generations at the similar pitch rates have been observed to be less prone to slow down, which is testable.
• Sensitivity to airlock pressure is likely a myth as the pressure caused by an airlock is less than atmospheric variations.

If this were the case, open fermentation would not be a thing. You might have a hard time convincing Anchor Brewing, Sam Smith, Schneider Weisse, among others.

Or Vinnie Cilurzo at Russian River, Dan Carey at New Glarus, or a several generations of English brewers.

I originally left the ferment open as I thought this might be a yeast that likes more gas exchange in the headspace (like 1469). I found some pictures of Brasserie Dupont fermenters. I can't tell for sure, but they look to me like closed vessels.

 

[Qhrumphf]

If this were the case, open fermentation would not be a thing. You might have a hard time convincing Anchor Brewing, Sam Smith, Schneider Weisse, among others.

This.

I've tried a second blast of oxygen into fermentation (no later than 24 hrs) in two circumstances. VERY strong beers (15% ABV or so). And lagers, if the pitching rate is less than ideal, though I don't do that unless I have no choice. In both cases, beer definitely isn't ruined.

I've been curious to try it with Dupont as well. FWIW I've never had that yeast stall on me, and it's always closed fermentation. But it does take a lot longer than other yeasts to fully attenuate (by which I mean 3 weeks and not 8 weeks). And long time at elevated temps has left me with occasional autolytic characters i haven't been happy with (which I why I started using blended strains instead)

Curious if the STA1 enzymatic secretion being enhanced by oxygen theory holds water, and that second blast of oxygen could mean either ability to reduce the temp or to reduce the time at elevated temp.

 

[Kenmoron]

I've tried a second blast of oxygen into fermentation (no later than 24 hrs) in two circumstances. VERY strong beers (15% ABV or so).

I've done the same in a 14.5% barleywine...definitely didn't ruin it. (not a grand master like yourself but am certified)

 

[rhys333]

Actually the argument he made is that the yeast has to adapt to your "brew setup". He then made it pretty clear that he has no idea what that actually means.

Why would I fret over the details when it's problem solved?

 

[Vale71]

If this were the case, open fermentation would not be a thing. You might have a hard time convincing Anchor Brewing, Sam Smith, Schneider Weisse, among others.

There is no oxygen ingress in a properly conducted open fermentation. Personally I think that the term "open fermentation" is quite misleading but as that is what the industry is using who am I to argue against that?

 

[Vale71]

Why would I fret over the details when it's problem solved?

If throwing away a perfectly good batch of beer is a solution to you then yes, problem solved. Alternatively you could try and actually adress the issue you seem to be obviously having with your starters.

 

[Vale71]

This.

I've tried a second blast of oxygen into fermentation (no later than 24 hrs) in two circumstances. VERY strong beers (15% ABV or so). And lagers, if the pitching rate is less than ideal, though I don't do that unless I have no choice. In both cases, beer definitely isn't ruined.

I did say "once fermentation is under way", didn't I?

 

[Kenmoron]

Seems like you just want to argue with people. I can quote plenty of professional brewers talking about controlled oxygen ingress during open fermentation and how they feel it leads to differences in the quality of their beer and yeast expression. You are entitled to your own opinion. I was simply offering up my own experiences and information/advice I have to offer. But honestly, I don't want to keep a back and forth going. I'll stop posting on this thread.

 

[duncan.brown]

Following @MikeCo's advice, I bumped the temperature back up to 80F and fermentation has taken off again. The krausen, which had all but disappeared, has reappeared. There's more airlock activity and the gravity is dropping.

Looks like letting the 3724 cool to the bottom end of its temperature range slowed it right down. Next time I start with the pure culture, I'll try and keep the yeast at 80F. The helles in the Chronicle next door is aghast at these temperatures

I'll also try a re-pitch of from this batch as @rhys333 and others suggested to see if ferments out faster.

The temperature dropped a bit overnight is because I'm using a heating pad with an auto-off. Once I get the brew belt off the chronicle, I'll use that.

 

[monkeymath]

Isn't the exchange of personal experience the very purpose of an online forum such as this? Dismissing it as purely anecdotal is certainly correct from an epistemological point of view, but it is absurd to demand scientific rigour in a discourse such as this.

A lot of people have experienced this sort of "stall" with this yeast strain. If you haven't, good for you, and potentially good for everyone as that could allow us to determine the differences which cause this behaviour. But just shouting "YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG, IDIOTS" will probably not help advance this discussion.

I, for one, have only brewed a single beer with this yeast, and it did stall on me for two weeks or so. I heated my bathroom up to 32 degrees Celsius in the middle of the summer. My girlfriend was not thrilled, but the beer was well worth it.
It's a strange behaviour, but not in itself harmful, I think.

 

[Gregory T]

I brewed 3 back to back to back Saisons with Dupont yeast and no stall using an open fermentation with tape instead of an airlock

https://www.maltosefalcons.com/tech/guide-saisons-and-saison-yeasts

 

[duncan.brown]

Isn't the exchange of personal experience the very purpose of an online forum such as this? Dismissing it as purely anecdotal is certainly correct from an epistemological point of view, but it is absurd to demand scientific rigour in a discourse such as this.

Couldn't agree more, both as a home brewer and as a professional scientist.

 

[duncan.brown]

Well this has been one long ferment. Almost a month and it's at 1.011 according to my Tilt (the fast fermentation test got to 1.003). The gravity looks like it's still slowly dropping. I think I'm going to rack to a keg with a spunding valve on it and see what happens. I'll try a second batch with the same yeast this weekend.

 

[Gregory T]

Well this has been one long ferment. Almost a month and it's at 1.011 according to my Tilt (the fast fermentation test got to 1.003). The gravity looks like it's still slowly dropping. I think I'm going to rack to a keg with a spunding valve on it and see what happens. I'll try a second batch with the same yeast this weekend.

View attachment 693728

I recommend open fermentation with 3724

 

[goodolarchie]

I am going to do a side-by-side fermentation (1 gal each) of

(1) 2nd gen 3724 slurry
(2) heavily propped up WLP 565
(3) combination of both

This will all be loosely foil'd in a temp controlled closet, pitch at 67 for 24 hrs, free rise to 78 thereafter. (I have never found the "open" fermentation to avoid the stall, but it doesn't hurt)

Drew mentions in the Maltose Falcons that he likes #3 so it will be interesting to compare. I will take SG readings at day 3 (usually when the stall is real), day 7, and every 7 days after that.

 

[yeastseeker]

I think the stall is most likely due to the temperature drop. That yeast likes to be warm, and most yeasts don’t react well to cooling after fermentation begins. Heat it up to 80 or even 90 to get it to finish faster. See Wyeast recommendations here:

https://wyeastlab.com/yeast-strain/belgian-saison

I'd venture to guess this is teh source of alot of homebrew stalling.

 

[goodolarchie]

I'd venture to guess this is teh source of alot of homebrew stalling.

The "stall" is only really problematic if fermentation doesn't kick back up, and vigorously enough to finish in a reasonable timeframe (ideally not 8 freakin' weeks), and fully attenuated like a Saison commands. By that I mean, the stall is just a pitstop, it's the petering out after that's really problematic. Sometimes the stall is so short that you go to bed and miss it by the time you wake up, but my experience with 3724 specifically is that it can be reeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaallllly slow to finish attenuating.

I recently did a 3724 fermentation, pitched a healthy active starter at 67ºF into 1.044 wort, oxygenated and put foil atop the 4" port in my conical. It stalled day 2 per usual at 1.035, had free risen to about 72F. At that point I cranked the heat each day by about 4ºF, until it was up to 91ºF... it was still trickling along in the teens (1.016) after a couple weeks. I re-activated the portion of 3724 starter I set aside cold from the initial pitch, propped it up to what would be considered a proper ale initial pitch rate, and carefully pitched it again (without oxygenating).

Over the next five weeks (to nearly 2 months after brew day) the primary slowly marched its way down to 1.005, which is about expected FG for my 150ºF mash.

Bottom line, I'm looking to keep using this amazing yeast for the sublime phenolic and ester results without the finicky hiccups along the way. To me that means not require more than 2-3 weeks to finish, and reliably reach a FG inline with the style. I've tried the open ferment a couple times, and using Wyeast's recco of raising to high 80's low 90's. Hence my vertical yeast experiment above where everything else is held constant.

 

[rhys333]

I'll try a second batch with the same yeast this weekend.

Brace for impact.

 

[TheCache]

I have a petite saison just finishing fermentation (extract with steep). It's OG was 1.036 so rather low to start with (expected 1.034 to 1.038 so well within range). Maybe that's the secret, start under the stall range and your good to go

Anyway, made a starter at around 74 degrees, pitched it into 73 degree wort. I had heard so much about 3724 needing a warm place to ferment, I put the fermonster in the garage, which runs between 78 and 82 (night/day), and wrapped it in a towel. Temps on the monster stayed around ramped up over about 36 hours and then stayed at 79-81 the whole time. I'm in Iowa so the humidity helps hold the temp. Krausen was forming within hours, but never got to be more than around 1/4 inch and did not start to drop unitl around 9 days. That's a little longer than I am used to, but after 9 days gravity was at 1.006, after 12 days 1.004. Again, to see it still dropping after 12 days it not something I'm used to, but it confirms to me that 3724 can have a slower fermtation. I'll check it again at 14 days and if its stable I'll bottle it in a few days.

The samples have that wonderful Belgian spice flavor, a bit peppery at 006, but smoother at 004. I have not tested 3724 fermentation at a cooler temp, but this first batch seemed to do really well in a consistent 80 degree room and a rather warm pitch temp.

 

[Gregory T]

I find it interesting that higher temperature, agitation, and open fermentation all work to decrease the solubility of CO2 in the fermenting beer. Many site one of these factors as either preventing or ending the stall. Depending on the Fast Ferment test process, it could also work to decrease solubility.

Yeast sensitivity to CO2 toxicity could be the factor

I further wonder if perhaps 2nd generation usage yields yeast less sensitive to CO2

 

[yeastseeker]

I find it interesting that higher temperature, agitation, and open fermentation all work to decrease the solubility of CO2 in the fermenting beer. Many site one of these factors as either preventing or ending the stall. Depending on the Fast Ferment test process, it could also work to decrease solubility.

Yeast sensitivity to CO2 toxicity could be the factor

I further wonder if perhaps 2nd generation usage yields yeast less sensitive to CO2

I think it was Escarpment labs that determined absence of simple sugar+presence of O2 caused diastatic enzyme production in this yeast

 

[Gregory T]

I brewed 3 Saisons back to back last year without a stall using open fermentation.

I just brewed 10 gallons last week open fermentation, they are at day 8 1.012. I did rack to glass carboys on day 2 when they were at 1.034

 

[duncan.brown]

I just brewed 10 gallons last week open fermentation, they are at day 8 1.012. I did rack to glass carboys on day 2 when they were at 1.034

Nice, thanks for the data. A couple of questions: Was the yeast 3724? How much yeast did you pitch?

Life got in the way of kegging this weekend, but my saison is still chugging away. The tilt reading on the attached plot is slightly high, as my FG hydrometer read 1.006 when I took a sample. Tastes great though. I’ll likely keg this weekend and start carbing it up.

 

[Gregory T]

Nice, thanks for the data. A couple of questions: Was the yeast 3724? How much yeast did you pitch?

Life got in the way of kegging this weekend, but my saison is still chugging away. The tilt reading on the attached plot is slightly high, as my FG hydrometer read 1.006 when I took a sample. Tastes great though. I’ll likely keg this weekend and start carbing it up.

I used 3724. I made a 2 step starter for 10 gallons 1.6 liter then 2.0 liter for .86 cells/ml/°P according to brewers friend calculator. It was split into 2 5 gallon buckets with approximately 1/2 yeast in each. I did not cold crash or decant the starter

I am 4 for 4 with open fermentation using 3724 assuming this one finishes up around 1.002 or less, but from my understanding it is past the stall point