Wyeast 3203 - PC de Bom Sour Blend impressions

[HollywoodMX]

So this is a brand new yeast that came out over a month ago. Not much info so I gathered what I could, mostly from the PC sour thread there. It's a good start but I found through actually using it there is some inaccuracies at least in my experience.

I did a 12 US gallon batch. Made a custom Gose recipe with German and Belgian malts mainly. Used 3 smack packs. No starters as I was hoping for stress flavors. Pitched at 26C. Fermented at 28C mostly.

I had 3 different krousens through the fermentation and 3 different weird looking krousen like things that came after fermentation..lol. I did swirl the bucket a few times. I don't know if its bacterias or yeast but there is tonnes of **** in suspension that is not settling.

It was a slow start to fermentation. Activity was later than pretty much all other beers I make, but it finished in less that 7 days starting from 1.057. But I usually have high brewers efficiency and AA in my beers not to mention this beer was set for a mash dry.

I added O2 by manually fluffing the bucket lid every two days (x4) starting on the 6th day.

I tried it at day 7 and its was starting to get sour, tasted very gose'ish. Tried at day 15 and it was super sour, more lambic'ish. I would say as sour as 2009 aged rodenbach but I did notice cooling and exposure to o2 reduces the sourness (the sample).

Its at 18 days now and I'm kegging 2.5 gallons in my mini keg and let the rest sit longer in the fermenter to age more. I will force carb it so its ready for tomorrow. So while it says it takes 4-8 weeks to make a sour beer with this yeast I am finding that it doesn't even take that long. Yes it wont be fully mature but one can bang out a sour beer pretty darn quick.

I'll post thoughts tomorrow of the beer.

 

[youreanimpulse]

Interesting. My Oud Bruin recipe with 3203 is souring nicely at ~4 weeks, but certainly not done to my taste. It was at the same SG at 12 days (1.012) as last weekend when I checked it, but a little more sour. Might be the different grain bill and higher mash temp making it slower. Looks like lots of floating yeast rafts still on top, similar to what you observed. Nice to see it going that quick for you. Maybe I'll have to do another Gose next.

 

[Oldsock]

What does "manually fluffing the bucket lid" mean?

It sounds like the Lacto did it's thing quickly, additional time would be needed to achieve much Brett character. Kegging is a safe option given the Brett, I doubt the FG is full stable. How low did it get?

 

[hirschb]

So you didn't aerate the wort before pitching?

 

[HollywoodMX]

Interesting. My Oud Bruin recipe with 3203 is souring nicely at ~4 weeks, but certainly not done to my taste. It was at the same SG at 12 days (1.012) as last weekend when I checked it, but a little more sour. Might be the different grain bill and higher mash temp making it slower. Looks like lots of floating yeast rafts still on top, similar to what you observed. Nice to see it going that quick for you. Maybe I'll have to do another Gose next.

Drinking it tonight, its commercial quality and it tastes equivalent sourness to the 2012/2013 Gueuze Tilquin (1 year old) in comparison but I feel min is higher quality over the commercial comparison due to the freshness and not taking a boat rider to North America.

What does "manually fluffing the bucket lid" mean?

It sounds like the Lacto did it's thing quickly, additional time would be needed to achieve much Brett character. Kegging is a safe option given the Brett, I doubt the FG is full stable. How low did it get?

I lifted off the lid and fanned o2 into it for a minute each time. The FG fully stable at 7 days as it was 100% the same at 18 days.

This de bom yeast is a piece of scientific art.

So you didn't aerate the wort before pitching?

No sir. Waited until day 6 or 7 to aerate as per the recommendations.

 

[franzy]

I was thinking of putting together a simple recipe with mostly 2 - row and Pilsen malts. Calling it an American sour ale with this yeast.

I'm new to brewing "intentional" sours. Have only brewed a berliner. I'm not sure of the typical grain bill.

 

[Oldsock]

I lifted off the lid and fanned o2 into it for a minute each time. The FG fully stable at 7 days as it was 100% the same at 18 days.

This de bom yeast is a piece of scientific art.

The issue is the the Brett may just not have really started yet. Brett works very slowly. Did you say what the current gravity was?

There are some less attenuative Brett strains I've worked with, but if Wyeast has one of these, they haven't released it as a pure culture yet.

 

[HollywoodMX]

The issue is the the Brett may just not have really started yet. Brett works very slowly. Did you say what the current gravity was?

There are some less attenuative Brett strains I've worked with, but if Wyeast has one of these, they haven't released it as a pure culture yet.

My portion was 6.4 US gallons or 24 L.

1.6 yeast packs. No starters.


1.057 watered down to in the kettle to 1.053 SG (wanted low 5% beer for this style)
1.013 FG
5.2%
74%AA

I still have 17L in the fermenter but I cant stop drinking the gose in the mini keg. Funny thing is I think the bacterias are cleaning up the bi-products that inhibit hang overs (acetaldehyde?) because you can get drunk off this gose and not feel it the next day.

 

[Mark_tries_brewing]

Hollywood can you post your Gose recipe just starting to experiment with the style and I have some 3203 on hand. Thanks.

 

[HollywoodMX]

Hollywood can you post your Gose recipe just starting to experiment with the style and I have some 3203 on hand. Thanks.

Hey Mark, I cant post the recipe I'm going to commercial brew here in a couple years and I don't want to give up recipe secrets at this time as I used a few tricks/gambles that really paid off as this gose is beyond fantastic.

What I can tell you is go more pilsen than wheat, even when you look at other gose recipes, stick to 4-5% alcohol, gose should be super easy to drink. Avoid cloying malts BUT don't dare to venture away from basic recipes. I prefer Belgian over German malts for the main malts and remember under 15 ibu. Hops? I would stick to non American hops but as a home brewer there is lots of creativity here being confined to non american hops even. I used hops most people never heard of.

 

[joshrosborne]

Hey Mark, I cant post the recipe I'm going to commercial brew here in a couple years and I don't want to give up recipe secrets at this time as I used a few tricks/gambles that really paid off as this gose is beyond fantastic.

So I assume you won't be one of those really cool breweries that gives out their recipes to homebrewers, huh?

 

[BzurkoBrews]

Seems like he'll be one of those brewers that thinks what grains and hops he used are more important than how he brewed and fermented the beer.


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[Montanaandy]

So I assume you won't be one of those really cool breweries that gives out their recipes to homebrewers, huh?

Yeah, look at how it destroyed Russian River when Vinny gave out the homebrew recipe to brew Pliny The Elder... What was he thinking?

 

[Montanaandy]

Hollywood can you post your Gose recipe just starting to experiment with the style and I have some 3203 on hand. Thanks.

Go to Tonsmeire's Mad Fermentationist blog - he likely has several kick ass Gose recepies available and will freely exchange info/advice.

 

[Arrheinous]

Has anyone had a chance to reuse a de Bom yeast cake? I'm curious how multiple generations will do.

 

[TrickyDick]

Did back to back brews today with the De Bom and the Oud Bruin limited strains.

Is there a consensus on when to add first oxygen "dose" ( I'll probably use my wand - no fear to contaminate as heat kills all and I can throw in oven for a spell) and how many doses?

I pitched at the recommended 80-85º. I think I dramatically underpitched, though it says that its good for 5 gallons, and my pouches were only 10 days since manufacturerd date, I smacked two per batch (10 gallon batch). I didn't make a starter because I understand this screws up the ratios of the bacteria/yeast. I'm sure it'll probably turn out just fine but thought I'd ask what others had done.

I'm probably going to add some cherries or cherry juice to half the De Bom fermented beer, and maybe a light dose of oak to the Oud Bruin.

Tempted to add some dregs from Jolly Pumpkin La Roja, but from the sounds of it, I probably will not need to do this.

If these truly are going to be ready in 3 month time frame, then I'm going to have a huge amount of sour beers to bottle come Thanksgiving/Christmas with my previous batches nearing bottling time.

TD

 

[youreanimpulse]

I got excited and added fairly young La Roja dregs to my De Bom sour (Jamil's Oud Bruin recipe) at 4 weeks. I'll let you know how they work together.

 

[BzurkoBrews]

Yeah, look at how it destroyed Russian River when Vinny gave out the homebrew recipe to brew Pliny The Elder... What was he thinking?

Good thing he didn't give out oak chips from his barrels containing his bugs or people would copy his sour beer profile and make millions.



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[Oldsock]

Go to Tonsmeire's Mad Fermentationist blog - he likely has several kick ass Gose recepies available and will freely exchange info/advice.

Gose Recipe - could have used more acidity, not a bad idea for my pack of De Bom!

 

[Oophaga]

This is what I am thinking.

10 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 60.6 %
3 lbs Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 2 18.2 %
2 lbs White Wheat Malt (2.4 SRM) Grain 3 12.1 %
1 lbs Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) Grain 4 6.1 %
8.0 oz Caramunich Malt (56.0 SRM) Grain 5 3.0 %
1.00 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 6 12.6 IBUs
1.0 pkg De Bom (Wyeast Labs #3203-PC) Yeast 7 -

Mash 150
Est Original Gravity: 1.070 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.011 SG
Possible Decoction to bring up to sparge temp and add some malliards for complexity.

I will take half and age with plums. I like doing half that way I know how it tastes on its own.

Any suggestions or alterations? I am hopping for an american sour, kinda similar to oud bruin. I am gonna call it an American sour just to get out of style rules. I want a sweet and sour brown with a decent complexity. The white wheat is just to keep it from being thin as I have seen a few comments about that being an issue so far. Maybe unfounded, but I am not looking for a light refreshing session ale at 7.8%.

 

[Montanaandy]

Did back to back brews today with the De Bom and the Oud Bruin limited strains.

Is there a consensus on when to add first oxygen "dose" ( I'll probably use my wand - no fear to contaminate as heat kills all and I can throw in oven for a spell) and how many doses?

I too was wondering about the oxygen issue with De Bom. I plan on transferring the Saison that was brewed with it to secondary shortly (onto raspberries fresh from the garden). Will probably give it a short burst of oxygen at that time.

 

[youreanimpulse]

This is what I am thinking.

10 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 60.6 %
3 lbs Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 2 18.2 %
2 lbs White Wheat Malt (2.4 SRM) Grain 3 12.1 %
1 lbs Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) Grain 4 6.1 %
8.0 oz Caramunich Malt (56.0 SRM) Grain 5 3.0 %
1.00 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 6 12.6 IBUs
1.0 pkg De Bom (Wyeast Labs #3203-PC) Yeast 7 -

Mash 150
Est Original Gravity: 1.070 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.011 SG
Possible Decoction to bring up to sparge temp and add some malliards for complexity.

I will take half and age with plums. I like doing half that way I know how it tastes on its own.

Any suggestions or alterations? I am hopping for an american sour, kinda similar to oud bruin. I am gonna call it an American sour just to get out of style rules. I want a sweet and sour brown with a decent complexity. The white wheat is just to keep it from being thin as I have seen a few comments about that being an issue so far. Maybe unfounded, but I am not looking for a light refreshing session ale at 7.8%.

This is very close to the recipe I did, it's at 5 weeks and very Oud Bruin like already in character. I mashed at 156 and it's at 1.010 from 1.050. Great mouth feel. So maybe higher mash temp or the decoction might take care of it.

 

[Urkelbot]

Is there any reason for a secondary or is it like regular lambics where you can just leave it in the primary?

 

[Oophaga]

Cool I'll keep that attenuation in mind. I definitely want some residual sweetness in the beer I am planning, like goudenband.

 

[HollywoodMX]

So I assume you won't be one of those really cool breweries that gives out their recipes to homebrewers, huh?

I think you guys need to cut me some slack here, there isn't a lot of info on the yeast and I was trying to help people out but giving the info I accumulated as one of the early users. Just because I choose not to share my exact recipe at this time doesn't mean I'm the fricken anti-christ.

I provided quality info to put him in the right direction very similar to my recipe while allowing him to be creative on his own. Creativity and self discovery is whats its all about in brewing if you ask me.

 

[joshrosborne]

I think you guys need to cut me some slack here, there isn't a lot of info on the yeast and I was trying to help people out but giving the info I accumulated as one of the early users. Just because I choose not to share my exact recipe at this time doesn't mean I'm the fricken anti-christ.

I provided quality info to put him in the right direction very similar to my recipe while allowing him to be creative on his own. Creativity and self discovery is whats its all about in brewing if you ask me.

No one said you're the anti-christ. No one here is ever going to be a competitor to you if you ever ended up commercially brewing, so it's silly to be tight fisted with info. Not to mention, this forum, and, more generally, brewing and homebrewing is a avenue for both creativity and sharing. If you feel the need to be tight with info, I'll feel the need to be tight with respect.

 

[franzy]

^that reply was De Bom-b! Yep, I got cheesy with it.

 

[Oophaga]

Respect should always be given out in abundance. If you are unhappy with his reluctance to share information that's fine but he is in no way obligated to share it nor does that warrant rude nor non hospitable behavior.

 

[joshrosborne]

Respect should always be given out in abundance. If you are unhappy with his reluctance to share information that's fine but he is in no way obligated to share it nor does that warrant rude nor non hospitable behavior.

Courtesy and respect are different. I'm happy to give out the former free of charge, but the latter is earned. I apparently view the homebrew community differently than he does, which is fine. I just happen to think my view of the community is right and his isn't.

 

[droder1]

Not to flame the fire... But mr Johnny tight lips is using a yeast blend with brett for his gose. If you asked many folks (or kris England) he'd tell you any such recipe is nonsense, so maybe you don't want it after all.


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[jwil123]

whats everyone think of using de bom for a berliner weiss?i know it doesn't recommend it just curious

 

[BzurkoBrews]

whats everyone think of using de bom for a berliner weiss?i know it doesn't recommend it just curious

That's what I'm doing. Well it's Berliner weisse esque. But it's in spirit of a Berliner weisse.


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[Oophaga]

I think the best option for a berliner is to jump on the Lactobacillus brevis while you can. That sounds perfect for kettle souring and then followed by either clean sach or a blend of sacch and brett. I think something like trois would be great in a berliner with some fruit, it will work a lot faster since you really don't get much benefit in a berliner from extended aging. If you desire to use de bom that way go ahead of course, but I do believe since the brevis its a neat option normally not available.

 

[youreanimpulse]

My take is that De Bom is a mixture of Lacto Brevis and an unknown sacc/Brett combo. So it could be a good set it and (mostly) forget it option for a Berliner. My batch is so far afield of a Berliner in grain bill that I'm not sure I can comment on flavor profile, but it's a nice clean sour so far. I'm tempted to try saving some for a future Berliner, though I know it will not be the same proportions in a second generation.

 

[youreanimpulse]

I took the bait. I transferred the Oud Bruin into secondary and saved the cake. Brewing a Berliner with triticale instead of wheat today. Adding 1/4 cake worth of slurry and putting it back in the closet. We'll see how she does on the second generation.

 

[dougdecinces]

I get to try this for the first time. Yesterday I brewed 4.5 gallons of a Belgian-inspired pumpkin ale and racked it from my kettle to a bucket. I pitched one smack pack and I am going to let it sit 48 hours. Then I will see if it is as sour as I want, or if I want to let it go a little longer. I have some American oak soaking in 12 year old rum that I may add in secondary. It'll be a longshot to have this done by Halloween, but I can probably have it done by Thanksgiving.

 

[TrickyDick]

Tasted my two beers today. They are still in the primary and one week old. I made my first "micro-oxygenation" dose today. I used my oxygenation wand, which is rather old now and I think I bought from William's Brewing about 5 years ago. I have a medical E-tank I use for Oxygen now, since its cheaper and more reliable than the home depot crap. I have a pediatric regulator I set it to 2 L/min and let it run for 15 seconds in each. I rinsed the wand and soaked a few minutes in star san in between. I didn't let it dry fully (which by the way, is what has the most potent killing effect).

Now on to the tastings. I drew up a small sample of each beer. Each was chilled to about 85 degrees on brew day before pitching, without oxygenation, as per the recommendations. After a few days, the temp fell to about 78 degrees or so. The ambient temp in the room is about 75 degrees, though the fermenters are sitting close to the door, where the temps are slightly warmer. I have those temp indicator stickers on the fermenters. They show 78 degrees after a week.

The Oud Bruin I tasted first. I left my gravity readings in the basement. It was well attenuated, more than 70%, but significantly less than the De Bom, which was about 80%. I can furnish the actual numbers when its all said and done. I did not measure pH. Tasted the samples and noted that the Oud Bruin, was minimally funky, and barely sour at all. It had, from memory, an OG of 1.056. The De Bomb beer, had an OG of 1.065. It was noticeable sour, I'd say moderately puckering with minimal funk. I am adding some oak tonight and will taste again in two days. I am very impressed with the de Bom and not as much with the Oud Bruin, though I am not an expert on the style, and want simply some sour homebrew. I'll report back later.

TD

 

[bryreeves]

What is in De Bom besides fast-acting Lacto? Has this been released? Is it giving any funk to the beer at all?

 

[Arrheinous]

I'm using de Bom now on a 1.04 lambic. Should have read more but it sat for 48 hours at 75F, then I ramped 2F/day to 85F and I'll drop it back to 80F over two weeks.

Dregs of Geuze Boon and Reinaert Wild Ale were added on the first day.

We'll see what the upper part of the temp range does for it.

 

[youreanimpulse]

Are you worried about the possible pedio in the gueuze? That may make it more of a long haul I would think...