WTF am I doing wrong??!!!

[troxerX]

I've see this idea from from a couple of people (outside of HomeBrewTalk) who keg, bottle from kegs, and bottle condition. This idea (and an extra package of CBC-1 yeast) was the inspiration for trying warmer (75F) and shorter (about a week) bottle conditioning. If I continue with the idea, my next step would be to brew a 24 pack and sample them over three or four months.

@BrewnWKopperKat Never tried that but I would worry about physical nature - every time we solve a problem we usually create another problem - my assumption in this case is that the high temperature that helps you condition faster may facilitate faster oxidation, that’s why I will recommend using a beer gun to fill from the keg to keep that air out at all times, but let us know how it works!.

@Jamafrica brewer when the beer reaches the lip of the bottle I start pulling the bottle down to stop filling - and as you keep pulling, the level of the beer starts lowering equivalent to the volume of the wand all while sucking air now into the bottle. In my process, I spray CO2 into the bottle as I pull the bottle down. Also with my particular wand I found that I still end up with too much headspace (to my own personal preference). To fix this, I lean the bottle sideways and try using the side of the neck to activate the wand and add additional beer into the bottle to fill up to about 3/4 - 1 inch headspace down from the lip (for regular brown 12 oz long neck bottles), then spraying the headspace again right before dropping the cap. This is what I was mentioning earlier that a lot goes into proper bottling that many home brewers will not really be up to.

This is the subject of contention but I lean into bottling as I found that bottle conditioning gives an extra edge to the beer as it allows the yeast one more chance to clean up unwanted products and another chance to work with hop compounds, make more esters etc.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Never tried that but I would worry about physical nature - every time we solve a problem we usually create another problem - my assumption in this case is that the high temperature that helps you condition faster may facilitate faster oxidation, that’s why I will recommend using a beer gun to fill from the keg to keep that air out at all times, but let us know how it works!.

Nothing to 'worry about' - it's just beer. My 'best guess' is that the process will show at least the same quality (maybe better) but bottles will be ready in 5 to 7 days (rather than 2 to 3 weeks). With my test batches, I was able to go "DME to glass" in two weeks.

 

[KegLand]

Have you changed the seals on the Grolsch bottles?

The Grolsch bottles come with a nitrile rubber seal. These seals have great oxygen barrier properties which is why grolsch use them. Hoppy beers and light coloured beers are oxygen sensitive and really the total packaged oxygen should ideally be kept below 100ppb.

One thing that is not often spoken about in home brewing is the horrendous oxygen permeability of silicone seals. Silicone has orders of magnitude higher oxygen ingress than nitrile. I know some customers like silicone because its high temp resistant, doesnt perish like nitrile and it has good chemical resistance. The only issue is the silicone allows oxygen to pass right through the seal.

Some customers think that "because the vessel is under pressure" that oxygen will not get in. This is totally WRONG. Oxygen will ingress through the seals even if the vessel is under pressure. The normal process of diffusion still causes oxygen to ingress into the vessel.

We get the same issue with Keg Lid o-rings too. Many home brewers like keg lid o-rings made from silicone but I think we need to do a lot more education on this subject as it's really a bad choice. Maybe what we should do is do a video on this subject and actually show some lab tests as it's a common issue in home brewing that we sell quite frequently. Keg lid o-rings are large and due to the large size are quite problematic. If you plan on storing your beer for some time always use something other than Silicone for your long term beer storage.


It's quite common that customers using Grolsch bottles find the original seal that comes with the bottle perishes and they end up replacing the seal with silicon which is the reason why I am suggesting this potential issue.

 

[DrOBeer]

My question is the same as above. Please clarify how the beer gets from the fermenter into the bottles. If you use a bucket with a spigot, why don't you add the sugar solution to the bucket? It seems like it would be hard to get the same amount of solution in each bottle. Other than that that your process is pretty similar to mine, I also use Grolsch fliptop bottles. Are your washers still good and do you sanitize the caps? I boil the caps before putting them back on the bottle.

I second you should add sugar to bucket (once), rather than to every bottle. When I bottled, many years ago w/ these I didn't have an issue. Carbonated versus uncarbonated will of course have very different taste.

 

[Beermeister32]

The Grolsch bottles come with a nitrile rubber seal.

I believe the old Grolsh bottles from 20 years ago used nitrile rubber. Sort of old technology like gasketing or inner tubes, but with less longevity. You can still buy them, but why would you? The plasticizer migrates and you are left with crunchy and hard seals.

I believe the new seals they are using are more of a TPE or TPV or similar elastomer. Much better, the newer technology seals great and with repeated use.

Agreed on the silicone. It is too slippery, seals less efficiently because of this, slides under clamping force, O2 infusion issues. Nifty colors though!

 

[Mark_B]

Does it seem over carbonated? Do you have gushers when you open them? It's possible that it's the spoon an plastic wrap, but I find it somewhat unlikely. How is your sanitation process after flameout to pitch to post ferment? Do you add enzymes?

Definitely not a problem with over carbonation. And other than the aforementioned, I’m pretty meticulous about the sanitary conditions. No enzymes. Just a yeast nutrient addiction at 10 minutes.

 

[Mark_B]

Over on Limiting oxidation: effect of purging headspace O2 in a bottle conditioned IPA it is suggested that the main culprit of oxidation in home-brewed bottled beer is the O2 in the headspace of the bottle. If not minimized, the leftover O2 is qualitatively shown to oxidize the bottled beer in the days and weeks after carbonation has completed.

You are certainly minimizing oxidation during the short span of time of transfer and bottling, as well as after the bottle is sealed. Do you have a sense for the benefit of spraying the CO2 to purge air from the bottling bucket and the bottles as compared to just spraying CO2 to purge air from the headspace of the bottles?

I have no current method of purging with CO2. Neither the fermentor/bottling bucket nor the bottles/headspace.

 

[thefigure5]

I have no current method of purging with CO2. Neither the fermentor/bottling bucket nor the bottles/headspace.

You might try mixing ascorbic acid (AA) into the priming solution after it's cooled at the rate of 0.6 gram/gallon of beer being bottled.

As an experiment, you could put your regular priming solution in the first two or three bottles, mark those bottles, then mix the AA into the remaining priming solution for the rest of the bottles. Two to four weeks later you then could compare one without AA side-by-side to one with AA, checking to see if one is darker than the other and checking for differences in flavor.

 

[mac_1103]

I believe the new seals they are using are more of a TPE or TPV or similar elastomer. Much better, the newer technology seals great and with repeated use.

Do you know if these are available anywhere? Everything I've seen is silicone. Amazon is full of listings for "silicone rubber" seals as if there actually was such a thing.

I have no current method of purging with CO2. Neither the fermentor/bottling bucket nor the bottles/headspace.

Some people use Amazon.com: Private Preserve Wine Preservation System | 100% Green Gas Based | Suitable for all Wine, Port, Sake, Cognac, Whiskey, Fine Oil and Vinegar : Everything Else for the bottle head space. Gets a bit pricey if you bottle a lot. I'm going to try using my soda stream on my next batch.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Definitely not a problem with over carbonation. And other than the aforementioned, I’m pretty meticulous about the sanitary conditions. No enzymes. Just a yeast nutrient addiction at 10 minutes.

Here's a more straightforward thought, next time, try doubling up on your hop quantities, then see if the flavor of your carbonated bottles tastes better.

 

[ncbrewer]

Here's a more straightforward thought, next time, try doubling up on your hop quantities, then see if the flavor of your carbonated bottles tastes better.

I think you're talking about finishing hops only, leaving bitterness the same. Am I correct?

 

[Mark_B]

You might try mixing ascorbic acid (AA) into the priming solution after it's cooled at the rate of 0.6 gram/gallon of beer being bottled.

As an experiment, you could put your regular priming solution in the first two or three bottles, mark those bottles, then mix the AA into the remaining priming solution for the rest of the bottles. Two to four weeks later you then could compare one without AA side-by-side to one with AA, checking to see if one is darker than the other and checking for differences in flavor.

Thanks for the tip. I’ll give it a try with the next batch.

 

[troxerX]

Have you changed the seals on the Grolsch bottles?

The Grolsch bottles come with a nitrile rubber seal. These seals have great oxygen barrier properties which is why grolsch use them. Hoppy beers and light coloured beers are oxygen sensitive and really the total packaged oxygen should ideally be kept below 100ppb.

One thing that is not often spoken about in home brewing is the horrendous oxygen permeability of silicone seals. Silicone has orders of magnitude higher oxygen ingress than nitrile. I know some customers like silicone because its high temp resistant, doesnt perish like nitrile and it has good chemical resistance. The only issue is the silicone allows oxygen to pass right through the seal.

Some customers think that "because the vessel is under pressure" that oxygen will not get in. This is totally WRONG. Oxygen will ingress through the seals even if the vessel is under pressure. The normal process of diffusion still causes oxygen to ingress into the vessel.

We get the same issue with Keg Lid o-rings too. Many home brewers like keg lid o-rings made from silicone but I think we need to do a lot more education on this subject as it's really a bad choice. Maybe what we should do is do a video on this subject and actually show some lab tests as it's a common issue in home brewing that we sell quite frequently. Keg lid o-rings are large and due to the large size are quite problematic. If you plan on storing your beer for some time always use something other than Silicone for your long term beer storage.


It's quite common that customers using Grolsch bottles find the original seal that comes with the bottle perishes and they end up replacing the seal with silicon which is the reason why I am suggesting this potential issue.

+100, one of the reasons I stopped using my SS brewtech bucket, other than decreased batch size, was that the beers didn’t match my carboy ones, I always suspected leaking oxygen and now that you mentioned this it makes sense since their gaskets are way too big and I never felt they seated properly… per the website they are brewers grade silicone (maybe some form of platinum cured silicone) so it makes all sense now..

https://www.ssbrewtech.com/products/gasket-for-fermenter-lid

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

I think you're talking about finishing hops only, leaving bitterness the same. Am I correct?

Correct, focus on your flavor, aroma, and dry hop additions.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Some people use [wine preservative] for the bottle head space. Gets a bit pricey if you bottle a lot.

Maybe an approach to bottling hazies where one uses 'less expensive' techniques for the earlier bottles and 'more expensive' techniques (wine ppreservative, PET bottles, ...) for the the later bottles?

 

[Zambezi Special]

Moral to the story (after several home brews and cider): drink your beer fast

 

[ncbrewer]

Moral to the story (after several home brews and cider): drink your beer fast

I'm a believer in this. For the most part, I plan my brew day so that the beer will be conditioned and ready to drink just a couple of days before the previous batch is gone. The idea is to give it minimum time to oxidize.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

This idea (and an extra package of CBC-1 yeast) was the inspiration for trying warmer (75F) and shorter (about a week) bottle conditioning.

but let us know how it [bottle condition @ 75F] works!.

I recently brewed a brown ale (~5.5%, ~ 30 IBUs, not hop forward, Lallemand London yeast). Bottle conditioned at 70-75F, but skipped the CBC-1. Sampled a bottle early (3 days after bottling); it was carbonated - so the CBC-1 yeast probably isn't needed with some strains. (eta: yes, I'll let most of the bottles bottle condition longer - three days was an early sample).

Maybe more later (currently fermenting a hop forward beer with US-05 / K-97).