WOW! All grain kits are expensive

[PADave]

Come on guys, every body's situation is different, this is not rocket surgery. RDWHAHB

I've said this many times about home brewing. If it works for YOU and YOU are happy with the results, who is anyone to say it's wrong? That is what makes home brewing great, you can do what you want.

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

FWIW I'm not in an argument in the least.
Without disrespect to Laredo it sounds like he hasn't tried to buy anything but kits yet dumps on the entire process. The reason being hes Dumping on a grain mill many here use for years milling 100's of pounds of grain and still cranking it out for a $100.The fact that he mentions hand milling that everyone under the sun uses a drill. Storing grains in a corner of your house attracts rodents.If that were the case nobody would store grains in there house and most people do. You don't need 8 pounds of hops to buy in bulk,you need one or two that take up nearly no space. Grinding grains with said mill over a 5 gallon bucket produces no dust at all.You don't save $50 a year.Just the one kit listed saves $40 on a single batch.
If he wants to buy kits by all means have at it...sounds like lack of effort excuses over legitimate reasoning

 

[BrewerBrad82]

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

...Thank You for this....So perfect...I give..wet willy...Say Uncle..Do as you will

 

[christyle]

FWIW I'm not in an argument in the least.
Without disrespect to Laredo it sounds like he hasn't tried to buy anything but kits yet dumps on the entire process...........You don't need 8 pounds of hops to buy in bulk,you need one or two that take up nearly no space........You don't save $50 a year.Just the one kit listed saves $40 on a single batch.
If he wants to buy kits by all means have at it...sounds like lack of effort excuses over legitimate reasoning

You aren't understanding. The people who disagree with the buying in bulk ideas aren't buying these $80 kits you're talking about, we are getting our ingredients from a LHBS piecemeal though, which is between the extremes: Cheaper than a kit like that, more expensive than building from a bulk stock on hand.

I don't use any single hop enough to just keep a stock of only 2 lbs of bulk hops, it would be more like the 8 mentioned, but I don't brew IPAs often enough to need any bulk hops. The kits I believe we are both referring to that we brew cost maybe $30-40 from the LHBS, and the only savings available in the kits are the base grain of 2 row and maybe a hop that we are getting 2-4oz of, when we brew 5-10 times a year. Therefor, the savings opportunity there is maybe $5-10 a batch, and I will need to go to the homebrew store anyway for specialty grains/hops, so i'm not saving time...

Call it a lack of effort if you want, but It doesn't make sense to me to buy and store more equipment and ingredients to save maybe $50-75 a year....

 

[Allenk]

The problem that I have with kits is that I typically brew 6 gallons. This allows for loss from transfer & dry hopping. I have bought a few kits and added 2lbs of base malt but then you are not really getting what is intended. Kits are a great way to get ideas about grains to use for a style you you would not typically brew.

 

[GonZolaB]

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but the convenience of the pre-packaged kit was that certain companies would guarantee the kit (no questions asked), so if you messed up on ferm temp and complained, they would send you a new kit.

 

[laredo7mm]

FWIW I'm not in an argument in the least.
Without disrespect to Laredo it sounds like he hasn't tried to buy anything but kits yet dumps on the entire process. The reason being hes Dumping on a grain mill many here use for years milling 100's of pounds of grain and still cranking it out for a $100.The fact that he mentions hand milling that everyone under the sun uses a drill. Storing grains in a corner of your house attracts rodents.If that were the case nobody would store grains in there house and most people do. You don't need 8 pounds of hops to buy in bulk,you need one or two that take up nearly no space. Grinding grains with said mill over a 5 gallon bucket produces no dust at all.You don't save $50 a year.Just the one kit listed saves $40 on a single batch.
If he wants to buy kits by all means have at it...sounds like lack of effort excuses over legitimate reasoning

Damn dude, you need to learn how to read. You even quoted me saying that I don't use kits in your reply on post #15. Here it is again since you can't seem to get it in your head that I don't use kits.

...But then again, I don't buy kits either.

You have completely missed every single point I have tried to make.

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

Damn dude, you need to learn how to read. You even quoted me saying that I don't use kits in your reply on post #15. Here it is again since you can't seem to get it in your head that I don't use kits.



You have completely missed every single point I have tried to make.

Stand corrected on you buying kits

 

[kh54s10]

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but the convenience of the pre-packaged kit was that certain companies would guarantee the kit (no questions asked), so if you messed up on ferm temp and complained, they would send you a new kit.

I suppose some would ask for a replacement when it was THEIR fault a kit came out bad.

I have a conscience and could not possibly to that!!!!!

I also feel that it is despicable for anyone to do that!!!!!

I know that it is often done......

 

[kh54s10]

Back to the original topic of kits costing so much. You are paying labor. Someone has to weigh out each grain, mill the grain, collect the hops, yeast etc. Then package it. Not to mention advertising the kits.

Someone mentioned that if the company was charging more than the ingredients they were overcharging. Not so. If they are not charging more then they are absorbing the labor. Not a good business practice. If you go to the LHBS and they make a kit on the spot that is a bit different and should not cost more. As long as you are comparing apples to apples. The price of the ingredients would be based on small quantity pricing not bulk pricing.

 

[MapleGroveAleworks]

It's much more fun to create your own recipes in my opinion, but these kits exist for a reason and serve their market purpose.

 

[GonZolaB]

I suppose some would ask for a replacement when it was THEIR fault a kit came out bad.



I have a conscience and could not possibly to that!!!!!



I also feel that it is despicable for anyone to do that!!!!!



I know that it is often done......

I completely agree with you, I wasn't condoning the practice, just mentioning that might be a reason they charge more for the kits.

 

[mattd2]

Back to the original topic of kits costing so much. You are paying labor. Someone has to weigh out each grain, mill the grain, collect the hops, yeast etc. Then package it. Not to mention advertising the kits.

Someone mentioned that if the company was charging more than the ingredients they were overcharging. Not so. If they are not charging more then they are absorbing the labor. Not a good business practice. If you go to the LHBS and they make a kit on the spot that is a bit different and should not cost more. As long as you are comparing apples to apples. The price of the ingredients would be based on small quantity pricing not bulk pricing.

But even if I load up my online cart with the same ingredients the retailer still has to put similar labour time to collect it all up and send it out.
Really the kits are about a convenience, I want to brew X beer - 1 click and done. Fair enough for the shops to mark up somewhat for the convenience, but if they mark it up too much then people just won't buy it... or worst they will complain about it on online forums

 

[kh54s10]

But even if I load up my online cart with the same ingredients the retailer still has to put similar labour time to collect it all up and send it out.
Really the kits are about a convenience, I want to brew X beer - 1 click and done. Fair enough for the shops to mark up somewhat for the convenience, but if they mark it up too much then people just won't buy it... or worst they will complain about it on online forums

This is what I was talking about in saying you really need to compare the same apples to apples. In this case the apples are the same and the price should be close.

But a Macintosh apple (kit and labor) compared to a Granny Smith apple (buying in bulk) - the Granny Smith apple should cost quite a bit less.

So a kit is higher because of the labor and small package price structure.

The allure of a kit is the ease of getting what you need without shopping around to get all that you need.

The allure of not using kits is you can experiment to your heart's content. And you can brew on the spur of the moment.

 

[madscientist451]

I've never used a kit, didn't think it was necessary and figured it was more expensive. After reading through the tread I was wondering how much more expensive it was.
So I'll compare a Northern Brewer kit to buying ingredients at my LHBS.
Not buying in bulk, just the regular retail price.

I randomly chose Fixed Gear American Red Ale by Lakefront Brewery

The Northern Brewer price of the kit is $41.51 plus shipping

The ingredients, according to Northern Brewer are:


MASH INGREDIENTS
- 11.25 lbs. Malteurop 2-row Mateurop not available substituted RAHR $13.37
- .75 lbs. Briess Caramel 60L $ 2.16
- .5 lbs. Belgian Special B Used Belgian made Chateau Special B $ 1.36

Hops: LHBS brand of hops is BSG Handcraft
.5 oz. Columbus (60 min) 1 oz $2.33
.5 oz. Chinook (20 min) $2.55
1 oz. Cascade (5 min) $2.43
1 oz. Citra (dry hop 7 days) $2.74
1 oz. Chinook (dry hop 7 days) $2.55

The cost of the malt and hops at my LHBS is $29.49
The Kit price is $41.51
So buying the ingredients is $12.02 less at my LHBS. Also, I'll have .5 oz each of Columbus and Chinook hops.

I didn't include yeast since the price is the same.

I didn't account for shipping from NB or the cost of driving to my LHBS.
For some people without a LHBS nearby, the kits are Ok.
If you are buying malt by the sack and hops by the pound, you can do this recipe way lower than $29.49 and so your savings is far greater.
I'm still not buying any kits, but now I know what I'm saving.

So for some paying the extra $12 is worh it

 

[timdillon36]

Bad example with fast food. If a customer just buys burger and fries, the place made less money than if they get combo, which is probably another $.50 on top of burger/fries, because the drink costs store about $.05. So while combo was cheaper, the store actually made more profit.

There is no ingredient in homebrewing that has such a huge markup to result in a similar situation. Certainly not hops or yeast.

With a kit you are paying for convenience hands down, as well as benefit of only getting the amount of hops you need, when they are usually sold in 1oz increments. Have you heard of meal delivery website like blue apron? The markup is huge, but you can justify 'saving' because you don't have to buy a whole container of a specific spice you've never used at $6 or an entire bunch of celery, you just get the 2 tbsp or the single stalk you need for the dinner.

Same idea with a kit. I have a brew I'm about to make after a long hiatus with quite a few hops at 1/2oz and even one with 1/4oz. Well I have to buy an ounce of each of those. If I don't use what's left over, that cost needs to go into my 'a la carte' price to compare apples to apples. With a kit, I would get exact.

I don't know how your LHBS can sell the kits at lower than a la carte, as it takes time for an employee to assemble the kits, there is packaging involved, etc. Unless they use their bulk unit price to come up with cost of kits. So if kit has 1 oz of cascade, they would only add $.50, vs. $2 or whatever for a single 1 oz package of those hops. Same with grain, their bulk sack unit price is a fraction, probably 30-40% less, of their unit price sold in bins. 15 pounds at bulk is $15 or less, but out of bins, probably $25.

That is the only way they could kit something less than a la carte.

My LHBS has a cool deal where you pay for a bag of grain, say $50 for a 50 lb of 2 row, but you don't take the sack, you just have 50lbs worth of credit for 2 row in their system, and every time you go and get 2 row, they update what you have left. However many trips it takes you, doesn't matter. So you get fresh grains, but at bulk pricing.

I can get a gumball head clone AG kit for $28. Buy it al la carte and its $34.
.
You need to check out greatfermentations.

Per item price was ~35. But check for yourself.

I dont work there and i dont get anything for bragging on ny LHBS but when i walk in the shop they know me.

 

[bigplunkett]

I buy in bluck when i can mt lhbs sells rarh 2row 55#for $36 thats a no brainer. I caputer yeast do i dont buy it much but at my shop even if you didn't buy bluck base malt is 1.65 spec is 2 comin hops can be had from 13 a pound ctz to 22 for citra. Just crazy how much orices vary vs the shop in town that ran out of business. Wanted 2.25 a pound up to 3 for mo.

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

I buy in bluck when i can mt lhbs sells rarh 2row 55#for $36 thats a no brainer. I caputer yeast do i dont buy it much but at my shop even if you didn't buy bluck base malt is 1.65 spec is 2 comin hops can be had from 13 a pound ctz to 22 for citra. Just crazy how much orices vary vs the shop in town that ran out of business. Wanted 2.25 a pound up to 3 for mo.

Most awesome drunk post of the day

 

[PADave]

Most awesome drunk post of the day

Exactly what I was thinking when I read it, just didn't say it.

 

[MaryB]

The kits are a great way to try a new beer style before investing in the bulk ingredients! That is why I buy them when NB has a good sale!

 

[metaltim]

But even if I load up my online cart with the same ingredients the retailer still has to put similar labour time to collect it all up and send it out.
Really the kits are about a convenience, I want to brew X beer - 1 click and done. Fair enough for the shops to mark up somewhat for the convenience, but if they mark it up too much then people just won't buy it... or worst they will complain about it on online forums

There is a slight difference in that if you do a la carte, you are buying prepackage sizes of hops. 1 oz, 2 oz etc.

If you do a kit, they are going to put exact amount in there, so they will package up 1.5 oz and seal it, etc. They will also separate .5 oz of a hop added at 60 min. from .5 oz of the same hop added at 0 min. Whereas if you do a la carte, you just buy the 1 oz and it's in one package.

Small differences, but something to consider.

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

There is a slight difference in that if you do a la carte, you are buying prepackage sizes of hops. 1 oz, 2 oz etc.

If you do a kit, they are going to put exact amount in there, so they will package up 1.5 oz and seal it, etc. They will also separate .5 oz of a hop added at 60 min. from .5 oz of the same hop added at 0 min. Whereas if you do a la carte, you just buy the 1 oz and it's in one package.

Small differences, but something to consider.

Measuring hops is my favorite part of brew day,I would never want that taken away

 

[enkamania]

My current beer is a leftover hop mutt beer. Round up all the random hops I have and chuck them in.

 

[kh54s10]

There is a slight difference in that if you do a la carte, you are buying prepackage sizes of hops. 1 oz, 2 oz etc.

If you do a kit, they are going to put exact amount in there, so they will package up 1.5 oz and seal it, etc. They will also separate .5 oz of a hop added at 60 min. from .5 oz of the same hop added at 0 min. Whereas if you do a la carte, you just buy the 1 oz and it's in one package.

Small differences, but something to consider.

But if you buy your hops in larger amounts you might be paying $1.00/ounce. In a 1 ounce package you might be paying $1.50 for the same hop.

If you want the convenience, then by all means pay the extra for the kit.

 

[applescrap]

I wish I could afford to buy more kits. Need to try some of these cheaper ones. I buy everything in bulk....advantage cheaper, disadvantage less variety in hop and grain. Also more work. I used to not understand kit allure but now I do. One button one click done. Little more money but a hell of a lot more convenient

 

[kh54s10]

The kits are a great way to try a new beer style before investing in the bulk ingredients! That is why I buy them when NB has a good sale!

If I want to try a beer that NB has a kit for. I look at the recipe and piece it together with the bulk ingredients that I already have.... And I save quite a bit of money.

I also will use a kit recipe as a starting point and alter it to make a recipe to suit my tastes. Sometimes it makes a great beer, sometimes the original recipe was probably better.

 

[PADave]

There is a slight difference in that if you do a la carte, you are buying prepackage sizes of hops. 1 oz, 2 oz etc.

If you do a kit, they are going to put exact amount in there, so they will package up 1.5 oz and seal it, etc. They will also separate .5 oz of a hop added at 60 min. from .5 oz of the same hop added at 0 min. Whereas if you do a la carte, you just buy the 1 oz and it's in one package.

Small differences, but something to consider.

Not any kits I've ever got, and I've gotten them from several places. There's just been even ounce packs for the hops, and not split up for different additions. Which is perfectly fine with me, I like when there are extra, more dry hops.

 

[wilserbrewer]

I buy bulk sacks of grain when needed, I'm lazy so when Opportunity presents I tend to overbuy...

Brewing last weekend I noticed a few black bugs amongst my grain sacks in the closet. A closer look revealed that a 2/3 sack of MO was loaded with bugs....rolled the sack closed and put it in a freezer down the basement.

I'm thinking I'll need to double up on the whirlfloc with the extra protein now.

Maybe kits and higher prices aren't such a bad thing lol.

Ps my newly conducted research shows that freezing your grain for a few days will kill any bugs or larvae present....probably a wise idea moving forward but I doubt I'll take my own advice.