Would you use this bucket?

[Deadalus]

I wanted to learn more because I feel like I should be able to identify which plastics are safe and why, and this lead me down a rabbit hole. Just looking at the bucket told me I had 3 questions that needed answers:

1. The chemicals in the bags in the container
2. The plastic and it's porosity
3. Neutralize the pH

I did some research and found the Safety Data Sheet for the Admix C-500. It is non-toxic and contains Portland cement, silica sand, and calcium dihydroxide. All 3 of these things are harmful if inhaled in large amounts and can cause GI upset if swallowed. Portland cement and calcium dihydroxide are both very alkaline with a pH of 12-13 each, but can be neutralized with a strong acid. By neutralizing the pH with Star San, the byproducts are water and salts. The salts are calcium phosphates and are very common in food products. The rest of the active chemicals catalyze when in contact with water so I believe there's nothing else to do besides not breath in the bucket and learn more about the plastic.

The HDPE plastic symbol means there's a potential for it to be food safe. HDPE is one of the best plastics for chemical and food safety as they are not porous, not reactive, heat resistant, and durable. HDPE can degrade over time while in contact with alkaline or acids, but these have to be quite extreme in pH, over extended periods of time, and at temperatures favorable to the chemical interactivity. Seeing that the product label is from the last 6 months I'm not worried about the permeability or reactivity of HDPE in this scenario.

I ran some tests on the buckets with some pH strips and some control groups. The product, and the inside and outside of the buckets are around 10 pH where any residue can be found. I found that simply spraying the buckets with water reduced the pH from about 10 to about 7. The water I used was about 6 pH so more testing was needed. I used Star San (1 oz to 5 gallons) at 1:1 in the next bucket and the pH went from about 10 to about 4, as to be expected. I tried testing seconds after spraying Star San and waiting for it to dry, and both neutralized the pH on the surface.
In the end, I sacrificed 1.3 ounces of Star San to match the 6.54 gallons that the bucket could hold. Once the bucket was overflowing I immediately dumped it out and tested it. It was completely neutralized from top to bottom despite the top only having a few seconds of contact with the water. I think the pH problem and chemical problem are solved with brewhouse materials and standards of cleaning.

TL: DR My limited research says the HDPE buckets can be food safe as long as it is cleaned and sanitized properly. As for me, I will run more tests and do much more research before using them for anything with food or plants.

Yeah ok. The FDA has a whole process for certifying whether a food container is food grade safe. I doubt your 3 questions are all that's necessary to determine if it is food safe. If you are qualified to review FDA's procedures and find them insufficient or overly onerous feel free to let us know your reasoning. I'm going to bet you don't currently have enough information to make the determination per FDA's process. Also, the company that uses the buckets is probably not making the buckets. Do you think they would pay the extra bucks for food grade buckets when they are bagging the product inside? In their manufacturing facility, do they manufacture other products that aren't food safe and do you think they are ensuring no other contaminants are present on the bags inside? What are their soluble bags made out of that are contacting the bucket insides?

 

[mac_1103]

ISTM that it is quite possible that there are no differences in materials or manufacturing processes between food grade and non-food grade HDPE, but that it is also quite possible that there are significant QC differences between food grade and non-food grade HDPE.

 

[Deadalus]

ISTM that it is quite possible that there are no differences in materials or manufacturing processes between food grade and non-food grade HDPE, but that it is also quite possible that there are significant QC differences between food grade and non-food grade HDPE.

That is certainly possible on both fronts however no guarantee either as far as manufacturing. Not the case here but if the bucket is dyed or colored, possibly not, because those colorizers are also covered in the food grade designation. Knowing the type of plastic is just the start.

 

[mac_1103]

Yeah, it's a bit but I was wondering about the dyes too. Lowe's and Home Depot food grade buckets are white, while their cheaper general use buckets are blue and orange respectively.

 

[Yesfan]

Go to a bakery, ask for buckets they're going to discard. I went to the one in my local grocery store and walked away with several 2.5-3 gallon-ish buckets with lids and a couple of 5 gallon buckets and lids. All food grade. Some had frosting, so needed a good cleaning, but all great stuff.

100%. Granted they are not 7 gallon buckets (5 gallon), but they had food in them and they were free. The last one I got was a 2 gallon bucket from Publix. I use it for circulating cleaner/sanitizer through my taps.

 

[Deadalus]

Yeah, it's a bit but I was wondering about the dyes too. Lowe's and Home Depot food grade buckets are white, while their cheaper general use buckets are blue and orange respectively.

Came up on another thread here maybe more than once is how I knew about colors and dyes being of importance. I went to the FDA site earlier. If I read correctly FDA was specifically using the word "colorant" to refer to whatever chemical was changing the food container color and also that it was food safe. And then for FDA, "dyes" were food additives. The page was more consumer oriented so I didn't link to it as it didn't cover their certification procedures in any detail.

 

[Hermit]

I'm not sure why all the debate. As a public forum I'm surprised the 'powers that be' haven't shut this down. Discussing anything that isn't properly rated is kinda pointless here. What's the point? It hasn't killed you within 6 months so that's good enough?

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Do you like camping? Those buckets would work great with one of these.

I mean, if you are far enough away from civilisation to get away with sh**ing in a bucket, wouldn't the old fashioned way of just hugging a tree and using an E-shovel be much less hassle?

 

[Brewtah1]

I doubt your 3 questions are all that's necessary to determine if it is food safe.

100% and why I am asking here.

If you are qualified to review FDA's procedures and find them insufficient or overly onerous feel free to let us know your reasoning. I'm going to bet you don't currently have enough information to make the determination per FDA's process. Also, the company that uses the buckets is probably not making the buckets. Do you think they would pay the extra bucks for food grade buckets when they are bagging the product inside? In their manufacturing facility, do they manufacture other products that aren't food safe and do you think they are ensuring no other contaminants are present on the bags inside? What are their soluble bags made out of that are contacting the bucket insides?

The FDA says HDPE is food safe as long as it doesn't impart or release harmful chemicals into food (along with other standards for purity and use-cases) and that's about all I know of the FDA's Title 21, Chapter 1b, Part 177. The C-500 product is meant for making concrete water tight where the concrete might come into contact with food. It is also NSF certified for food safety so it makes a lot of sense that the company making the product might spend the money to make sure their product is not going to get contaminated by its container(s).

 

[hotbeer]

I wouldn't use them for beer intended to be sold. But for your own use they'll be fine. This is one thing I see as a very very tiny risk compared to the other big risks we all take daily and think nothing of.

Sort of like back in the 80's when my friend went on and on about the evils of refined sugar compared to raw sugar. All the while smoking a cigarette as he claimed how terrible it was for us.

 

[mac_1103]

This is one thing I see as a very very tiny risk compared to the other big risk we all take daily and think nothing of.

But to me anyway, you have to consider reward to properly evaluate risk. The reward for accepting the risks of driving is getting where you want to go in minutes instead of hours or hours instead of days. The reward for this is what, four bucks?

 

[Hermit]

It is also NSF certified for food safety so it makes a lot of sense that the company making the product might spend the money to make sure their product is not going to get contaminated by its container(s).

But not that their product didn't contaminate the bucket.

But to be honest it was probably a decision based on what buckets were available at what price, including things like freight charges, were available when they needed them.

 

[Brewtah1]

But to me anyway, you have to consider reward to properly evaluate risk. The reward for accepting the risks of driving is getting where you want to go in minutes instead of hours or hours instead of days. The reward for this is what, four bucks?

I totally agree with this. I used $4 in Star San just testing and cleaning a few buckets.

What is the risk? From what I found the risk is relatively low considering how good HDPE is in such applications. Plus they are 6.5 gallons so they are perfect for a 5 gallon batch. My local brew house just closed and now I would have to drive 45 minutes to get to a different store and my local hardware stores only have up to 5 gallon buckets.

I bought some Everclear (banned in Utah but I know a guy), a big boy pH tester, a TDS PPM tester, and some HCl to further test these buckets.

In the end, if these don't work out, where should I shop online for 6+ gallon food safe buckets?

 

[mac_1103]

In the end, if these don't work out, where should I shop online for 6+ gallon food safe buckets?

I don't know. They are pretty overpriced at most of the online brew stores. Maybe try Uline? Or get the free five gallon bakery buckets suggested and brew smaller batches or split your fermentations.

My brother makes 20 or 30 gallons of wine every fall from fresh juice that comes in 6 gallon HDPE buckets. So I can get 4 or 5 free buckets every year for the cost of a visit to NY and the time it takes me to give them a good washing out.

 

[mashdar]

Yeah, it's a bit but I was wondering about the dyes too. Lowe's and Home Depot food grade buckets are white, while their cheaper general use buckets are blue and orange respectively.

FWIW I have some food safe blue lowes buckets. Not sure I've seen food safe orange homers, though.

edit: I take it back. Thought they were, but no marking. May have been on wrong shelf. I use them for road salt and sand, anyway.

 

[Deadalus]

100% and why I am asking here.

The FDA says HDPE is food safe as long as it doesn't impart or release harmful chemicals into food (along with other standards for purity and use-cases) and that's about all I know of the FDA's Title 21, Chapter 1b, Part 177. The C-500 product is meant for making concrete water tight where the concrete might come into contact with food. It is also NSF certified for food safety so it makes a lot of sense that the company making the product might spend the money to make sure their product is not going to get contaminated by its container(s).

1. The NSF rating came about after the product was used to treat the concrete. It does not apply to any interaction the product may have with the bucket. Their Safety Data Sheet does say.

2.1 CLASSIFICATION OF THE MIXTURE2.1.1 Classification In Accordance With GHS (5th Edition) Skin Irrit. 2: H315 Causes skin irritation. Eye Dam. 1: H318 Causes serious eye damage. Skin Sens. 1: H317 May cause an allergic skin reaction. STOT SE 3: H335 May cause respiratory irritation. STOT RE 2: H373 May cause damage to respiratory organs through prolonged or repeated exposure.

The bucket has no information besides the HDPE 2 rating on it. Your link is to the Code of Federal Regulations. There are testing procedures there but you need to find them for this specific material. But we already know that not all HDPE is food safe. Just because some or a lot of them are doesn't mean this one is. You're not judging the risk correctly. How many buckets are made out of HDPE (in the world) and how many are food safe (in the world). You'd have to know how many of each there were to assess the risk properly. You are hoping that coincidentally this bucket used for an industrial purpose is food safe. In your everyday life, I would think you normally eat off products that are food safe and normally consider that when purchasing them. If I handed you a cup but couldn't tell you if it was safe to drink out of, would drink out of it? After a young age we are rightly conditioned to not eat or drink unknown substances. I understand you are motivated to test that but It's just a couple bucks.

There's no magic really to a five gallon batch, four would be fine too or put the extra bucks up for a fermentation bucket.

 

[Brewtah1]

There's no magic really to a five gallon batch, four would be fine too or put the extra bucks up for a fermentation bucket.

I've heard that too much headspace can cause many issues from off flavors to ABV due to "the presence of more oxygen." Is this a myth?

 

[mac_1103]

I've heard that too much headspace can cause many issues from off flavors to ABV due to "the presence of more oxygen." Is this a myth?

I think he was suggesting a four gallon batch in a five gallon bucket, so pretty comparable head space to a five gallon batch in a 6.5 gallon bucket.

 

[Malticulous]

I wouldn't hesitate to use these if they look good. If you can't clean a bucket you can't brew.

Living in Utah also I know these are being sold for food storage. I buy my fermenter buckets new from a local food storage place, but I store grain in free used ones.