wort chillers as waste of water??

[NorCalAngler]

I used a chiller for the first time a couple weeks ago on a ten gallon batch and I used a TON of water. It's not reasonable to use the water for a bath (am I going to bathe immediately just for the sake of not "wasting" the water?) or a load of laundry since I have an HE washer that uses very little water as it is. It was a bummer to see that much water go out into a lawn that is watered just fine. I guess the best I can do is use it to clean the equipment.

 

[Tu13es]

I'm having a little difficulty with the concept of wasting water. I hear about it more and more but perhaps someone could help me understand the step where the water is wasted. The following is my understanding of how water is used, feel free to correct me if someone can.

Step 1 : Water comes out of ground/out of lake
Step 2 : Water is momentarilly sequestered in beer/sink/plumbing appliance/bladder
Step 3 : Water is returned to ground/lake

I get how energy is consumed in the process, but the water doesn't really seem to go anywhere. Perhaps I'm just getting a little testy because the media is now on a kick telling me that one pound of beef or one cotton t-shirt 'consumes' x amount of water, but can't seem to grasp the concept of the water cycle.

Sorry if this is went a little off topic, but in response to the OP, using the water (and heat) from the cooler in a second process in your home (ie laundry) is a good idea. It helps to save energy and money, but i wouldn't worry about the water, it will be fine regardless.

At its most basic form, your 3 step plan makes sense. However, it's not always that simple (especially step 3). For example, water that you dump into your lawn isn't immediately returned to the water system. Water that goes down the drain gets treated and is generally returned to the source right away.

So, I guess the term "wasting water" could be thought of two ways. One being that your chiller water goes down the drain, so you don't get any use out of it other than to cool your beer, and you're wasting money on your water bill. The other is that you dump your chiller water on the lawn which benefits you, but that takes longer before that water is usable again in the water system.

An interesting article I read recently that kind of talks about this:

http://www.slate.com/id/2268920/

 

[steinsato]

We collect rainwater off our roof. When my 60 gallon barrells are full I can attach my chiller to them and use the rain water to chill my wort. Once the water runs through the chiller, I drain it right back into the same barrell to reuse on the plants or save for a future brew.

 

[RuddurBall]

I used a chiller for the first time a couple weeks ago on a ten gallon batch and I used a TON of water. It's not reasonable to use the water for a bath (am I going to bathe immediately just for the sake of not "wasting" the water?) or a load of laundry since I have an HE washer that uses very little water as it is. It was a bummer to see that much water go out into a lawn that is watered just fine. I guess the best I can do is use it to clean the equipment.

It's not that you are using a finite resource, it is that you are using a portion of the maximum water treatment capacity. Generally, unless you live in a drought region (I.e. The southwest) it is really not that big of a deal.

 

[conpewter]

When I remember it goes into the washing machine. Lately when I brew (which I haven't gotten to do much) I go no-chill, faster and cheaper.

 

[LaurieGator]

I am another one who puts the water into a large rubbermaid tub with some ice and recycles it through using a pond pump. When I am done, I put it into the bathtub (with the carboy) to keep my fermentation temps down. Works well for us

 

[ArtVandelay]

+1

Every time chilling comes up people seem to think the faster the water goes through the chiller the better it cools when in fact if the water is not in the chiller long enough to get heat transfer it is being wasted.

People think that because it is true. The faster the water gets through the chiller, the greater the delta T in the coils relative to wort temp and the faster the chilling. In terms of water usage it isn't efficient but it definitely chills faster.

But there is a point where running water so fast that any incremental increase in cooling rate by flowing water through faster is overshadowed by the excessive waste of water. On the contrary, running too slowly will cause water to warm so much that you are losing all cooling power on the last few coils of your chiller while slowing cooling rate and not saving any water.

 

[Baldy_Beer_Brewery]

Basically we both are saying that there is a point that it is useless to run more water through the coils?

 

[rockfish42]

Certain sections of the country experience these funny things called droughts. My ground water seems to be cold enough for me to have enough to do a large load of laundry and have just enough left over water to clean all the equipment.

 

[ghpeel]

We collect rainwater off our roof. When my 60 gallon barrells are full I can attach my chiller to them and use the rain water to chill my wort. Once the water runs through the chiller, I drain it right back into the same barrell to reuse on the plants or save for a future brew.

I've warned people against this until I'm blue in the face. Rainwater collected off a roof with shingles is INCREDIBLY toxic. You can't even put in compost. For your sake I hope you have a ceramic tile or metal roof. Even then it's risky. Raccoons carry some really nasty parasites.

If you want to save water, do a recirculating pump or better yet No Chill.

 

[tunoffun]

I've warned people against this until I'm blue in the face. Rainwater collected off a roof with shingles is INCREDIBLY toxic. You can't even put in compost. For your sake I hope you have a ceramic tile or metal roof. Even then it's risky. Raccoons carry some really nasty parasites.

If you want to save water, do a recirculating pump or better yet No Chill.

Since we're talking about cooling beer with ICs, toxic chemicals and coon crap really don't matter.

In regards to asphalt shingles used in well-designed rain-water harvesting systems (for non-potable use, of course), I'm not entirely convinced the run-off poses a significant danger for growing food crops. The following study might be of interest:

http://www.twdb.state.tx.us/iwt/rainwater/docs/rainquality/March2009.pdf

One quote from the study stood out:

"We tested for a suite of 200 synthetic organic compounds (Appendix, Table A.3) on the first flush samples from the 2/9/09 rain event for the metal and shingle roofs. Only two compounds were detected: benzyl alcohol and 2,4-dinitrophenol, but the concentrations were very low"

Not saying I take this study as gospel or that one can draw the conclusion said run-off is 'safe'. But it is food for thought.
If you have references to the contrary I'd be interested in reading them.

 

[RedHouse]

I use my wort chiller output to keep the dust down on my gravel driveway

 

[Cheapspkrs111]

I think the best thing to do would be put the majority of the spent water into a big bio-degradeabloe trash can......climb in.........AND CHILL OUT!!!! Your making beer dude, Relax. Seriously there should be almost no worries about a relaxing hobby.

 

[passedpawn]

I think the best thing to do would be put the majority of the spent water into a big bio-degradeabloe trash can......climb in.........AND CHILL OUT!!!! Your making beer dude, Relax. Seriously there should be almost no worries about a relaxing hobby.

Yep. Get on board the RDWHAHB train. Damned right.

 

[Bumbler]

It doesn't take long to realize that brewing uses a lot of water.


Recently I was doing some work in the worlds largest open pit iron ore mine, and all around me was a veritable river flowing non-stop 24/7/365 of the grossest, nastiest, dirtiest water I have ever seen. In the distance was the settling pond, or should I say "lake". As I stared in amazement I thought to myself, "all this just so I can have a toaster." It kind of puts 6 gal. of clean tap water on my lawn in perspective.

Water for thought.

Water Usage

According to the EPA it takes.

1. 62,600 gallons to produce a ton of steel
2. 39,090 gallons are needed to manufacture a new car, including tires
3. 28,100 gallons to process a ton of beet sugar to make processed sugar
4. 1,500 gallons to process a barrel of beer

According to the U.S. Geological Survey (USGS)

1. It takes 684,000 gallons of water per acre per year to irrigate a golf course.
2. 21,600 gallons to water the average lawn. (minus 6 every time I brew)
3. 150 gallons of water to produce one copy of a newspaper
4. 1,850 gallons of water to refine one barrel of crude oil, yielding 20 gallons of gas

 

[jgardner6]

Recirculate with a pump, it works great because you can use ice water in a pot.

 

[ArtVandelay]

Basically we both are saying that there is a point that it is useless to run more water through the coils?

Yeah basically. Its not "useless" though.

 

[Bobby_M]

Again, where are you getting this ice? Please consider all the costs associated both ecological and economical.

 

[cajunrph]

Again, where are you getting this ice? Please consider all the costs associated both ecological and economical.

If that is the case then don't even homebrew. Because there is no way you are more efficient economically or ecologically than a large commercial brewer. Just go out and buy a case of BMC and know you are doing the best for the environment. For myself, I'm not going to worry about wasting any natural resources when I homebrew. I have a smaller environmental impact than the chemical plant down the road does. Not like I'm gonna start a strip mining operation in by back yard for any brewing salts I might have to add to my wort. RDWHAHB.

 

[bob1852]

If that is the case then don't even homebrew. Because there is no way you are more efficient economically or ecologically than a large commercial brewer. Just go out and buy a case of BMC and know you are doing the best for the environment. For myself, I'm not going to worry about wasting any natural resources when I homebrew. I have a smaller environmental impact than the chemical plant down the road does. Not like I'm gonna start a strip mining operation in by back yard for any brewing salts I might have to add to my wort. RDWHAHB.

That's not what Bobby_M is saying - what he's saying is that you should take into account your overall "cost" before declaring that you are a "green" brewer.....

 

[ghpeel]

If you have references to the contrary I'd be interested in reading them.

Here you go: http://home.comcast.net/~leavesdance/rainbarrels/safety.html

From the Minneapolis Star Tribune Fixit column of 04/04/06:
"...You can't drink the water collected, nor should you use it to water vegetable gardens. It's likely to be contaminated with chemicals and bacteria. But you can use it to water flower gardens and lawns or to wash lawn furniture, cars, etc...."

From an Environmental Toxicologist with the Minnesota Department of Health (April 2006):
....

Rainwater washing off of roofs has been studied to determine the load of contaminants picked up from roofing material. Some rainwater collection systems, intended for drinking water, discard a first "flush" of water off the roof in order to make sure that organic material such as bird droppings do not contaminate collection tanks. The water is then treated for drinking.

But the contaminants that you could be worried about are the heavy metals and polyaromatic hydrocarbons from asphalt shingles and other contaminants that may deposit onto roofs from air. It appears that contaminants that rainwater washes off of shingles may be a significant source of surface water contamination. The contaminants that are washing off of roofs include zinc, lead, chromium, arsenic, and polyaromatic hydrocarbons. It is similar to what you might collect off of a parking lot.

It is possible to find data on the amount (concentrations) of chemicals in rainwater from asphalt roofs. However, I was not able to find information on whether or not the levels were high enough to accumulate in garden plants intended for consumption.

....

From another website: "When NOT to use a rain barrel for watering: If you have certain kinds of roofing material you shouldn't use rain barrels for watering plants. If your roof is made of wood shingles or shakes that have been treated with any chemical (usually chromated copper arsenate-CCA) to make them resistant to rot and moss, lichen and algae growth, don't water your plants from a rain barrel. Water collected from copper roofs or copper gutters also should not be used. Zinc (galvanized metal) anti-moss strips-usually mounted at the roof peak-also produce toxic chemicals you don't want in your garden. Don't use rain barrels if you have these strips (you may want to remove them), or if you have had your roof treated with moss-, lichen or algae-killing chemicals within the last several years. Note that nowadays there are asphalt shingles on the market which have zinc particles imbedded in the surface. Check your shingle specifications if you have recently re-roofed.

In addition, general practice is to avoid watering vegetables and other edible plants, such as herbs you plan to use in cooking, with rain barrel water collected from asphalt-shingle roofs. These kinds of roofs may leach various complex hydrocarbon compounds, so most people avoid using water from asphalt-shingle roofs or flat tar roofs on plants meant for human consumption. To date there is no definitive research on the amounts and types of hydrocarbon compounds which may leach from such roofs, though it is common practice to use water collected from asphalt-shingle roofs for watering ornamental plants and shrubs. Enameled steel and glazed tile roofs generate little or no contamination and rainwater harvested from them is commonly used to water vegetables."

From a University of Minnesota Horticultural Specialist (April 2006):
[paraphrase] The advice of not using rain barrel water in vegetable gardens is sound and precautionary. Such water should not be used for drinking or for vegetables. Until a detailed study can be conducted, the best advice at this time is to use the water for ornamental landscape plants/lawns.

From a Physician with the California Public Health Service (March 2009):
1) In California (and probably across the nation), rooftops are often sites for raccoon latrines. Raccoons leave feces on rooftops, usually where valleys form, or alongside the intersection of walls and roofs. The danger is the Raccoon roundworm (Baylisascaris procyonis), which is a common intestinal parasite in the raccoon. The roundworm eggs are found in the raccoon feces and the eggs develop in the feces -- often surviving for over a year in dried raccoon feces. These roundworm eggs can be found in roof runoff water; an internet search on "raccoon latrines" will give several references.

2) Many shingles are now made with a mild algicide and/or fungicide. Usually this is a copper compound, but may be a more complex chemical.

Not to be a jerk, but with as much info as I've seen, I think it's pretty unethical to make beer with roof water and give it to people without warning them. If you want to take the risk, that's fine, but you should let others know where you got the water from. I personally would decline a beer made from roof water. Its not just the roof material you have to worry about.

 

[tunoffun]

Here you go: http://home.comcast.net/~leavesdance/rainbarrels/safety.html

Not to be a jerk, but with as much info as I've seen, I think it's pretty unethical to make beer with roof water and give it to people without warning them. If you want to take the risk, that's fine, but you should let others know where you got the water from. I personally would decline a beer made from roof water. Its not just the roof material you have to worry about.

Ok. First off... every quote you posted above is based - by admission - on opinion and 'common practice', rather than actual test results or research. I believe it was stated not once, but twice, in the information you posted that there aren't test results available to back up any of these presumptions. So not only do the references you site not know what the actual chemical/hydrocarbon content of the runoff water is... they also don't know if any of these compounds would be taken up unaltered into plant tissues where they'd pose a health hazard to consumers.

That's not to say that I believe a lack of data is a reason to assume it's safe. Far from it. My gut reaction is to believe that water off asphalt shingles has a pretty good probability of containing some less-than-desirable substances. That's probably the reason so many people are willing to take it as gospel (and make it 'common practice') without actually basing their opinions on facts. I have no problem with the idea of being 'safe instead of sorry'. But be honest about what you're doing. You're choosing to not use roof-water because of what you don't know... not what you do.

In contrast - the reference I cited was a research study. When I asked for references, that was what I was asking for. Not more opinion.

But really... this is all a moot point... because in reference to the conversation at hand, it doesn't matter if you're using ethylene glycol, coon-crap laden runoff water, methyl alcohol, my piss after a 3-day drinking binge, or suntan lotion. Because we're talking about water used to run a wort chiller. It never contacts the beer. It's not used in the beer. You really need to go back and actually read the post you first responded to.

 

[passedpawn]

Not to be a jerk, but with as much info as I've seen, I think it's pretty unethical to make beer with roof water and give it to people without warning them. If you want to take the risk, that's fine, but you should let others know where you got the water from. I personally would decline a beer made from roof water. Its not just the roof material you have to worry about.

No one suggested putting roof water in the beer. Using the water to cool the wort was suggested. Maybe this was clear to you: so, so you still oppose the use in cooling?

 

[alecoholic]

No they are not a waste of water. But I live in a temperate rainforest, we got 2.25 inches of rain just yesterday, so I'm not too worried about the aquifer not recharging.

 

[ghpeel]

You're saying, without question, that using runoff water from asphalt shingles to water your plants is dangerous when you obviously have no proof.

I'm not saying that I know with 100% certainty that its dangerous. What I'm saying its that lots of really smart people are saying it dangerous. Here's a quote from the website I linked to:

Summary: The consensus is that there is not a clear consensus. There are significant and reasonable concerns about using rooftop harvested rainwater for drinking or watering food plants. To paraphrase a famous adage: Caution is the better part of good health.

To me, the risks FAR outweigh the benefits. If you're right, you saved a few bucks on a batch of beer. If you aren't right, you have exposed everyone who drinks your beer to heavy metals and all kind of other toxic crap.

The authorities sited in that article saying not to use the water include: the Minnesota Department of Health, the University of Connecticut, Snohomish County government, Volusia County government and the California Public Health Service. They don't link to specific studies, but I'm sure they aren't just going on a gut feeling here.

And let me apologize if my post seemed harsh or personal. Its just that I've been ignored in several threads specifically about using roof water for brewing when I bring up these concerns, and its making me a little jumpy.

 

[ghpeel]

No one suggested putting roof water in the beer. Using the water to cool the wort was suggested. Maybe this was clear to you: so, so you still oppose the use in cooling?

Yeah, I know the conversation started regarded using it to cool. I think that's fine, so long as you aren't leaking like a gallon of water from your chiller.

I just feel the need to warm people anytime rain water comes up because (being a cheap bastard myself) I think a lot of folks who start using rain water to chill might eventually decide to use that water in the boil.

 

[Bobby_M]

If that is the case then don't even homebrew. Because there is no way you are more efficient economically or ecologically than a large commercial brewer. Just go out and buy a case of BMC and know you are doing the best for the environment. For myself, I'm not going to worry about wasting any natural resources when I homebrew. I have a smaller environmental impact than the chemical plant down the road does. Not like I'm gonna start a strip mining operation in by back yard for any brewing salts I might have to add to my wort. RDWHAHB.

I don't particularly care about wasting water or wasting energy making ice. That wasn't my point at all. I'm refuting the statements from the people who claim they save water by using ice. I'm simply suggesting that ice is not necessarily a MORE eco friendly nor penny pinching alternative to just running straight tap water. Again, I'm not being a hippie here. I personally choose to reuse the waste water from chilling in some additional way because it's easy.

I pay less than a penny per gallon for tap water so when it's cold enough to do the chilling job on its own, I go that route. That's 30 cents to chill a 6 gallon batch. If you do this with ice, it will require about 40 pounds and I think that it's going to cost more than 30 cents to make it or buy it.

 

[tunoffun]

And let me apologize if my post seemed harsh or personal. Its just that I've been ignored in several threads specifically about using roof water for brewing when I bring up these concerns, and its making me a little jumpy.

You certainly don't need to apologize to me. I was more abrasive than you ever came close to being. If anything I should apologize to you for my tone, though I meant no disrespect.

Honestly - I'm right in line with you. Even though I REALLY REALLY WANT to build a properly-designed rainwater harvesting system, I won't do so until I get a suitable metal roof up. But again - that's because of what I don't know rather than what I do. I have to assume that's the reason the 'really smart people' you mention all echo the same sentiments. They'd rather err on the side of safety until it's proven safe, rather than assume it's safe until it's proven to not be. That's an intelligent stand IMO as well.

ETA: If you're leaking ANY water from your chiller, you've got a huge problem with potential infection as well as other concerns, regardless of the water source. I made my statements in the context of a properly built and functional chiller.

 

[eibbor]

I'm personally more concerned for the cost of the water going down the drain. My wife and I have 7 kids and they love to take long showers (even though only 2 of them are girls). I do turn off the water when I brush my teeth and I try to get the kids to do it too. During the summer I do turn off the shower when I soap and shampoo up, well our showerhead had a "pause" feature. I do it during the summer because we spend alot of money on watering our grasss. During the winter we dont have this expense, plus when it is cold I dont like to stand in a cold shower while I lather up. So yes I do try to save water to keep costs down but no I dont do as much as I should. I have my water bill sitting in front of me right now, we used 1300 gallons in the last month. And this is during the non lawn watering time. July and August of this year we used ~3500 gallons each month. So when I finally get a wort chiller I will be using my water on the grass during the summer.

 

[deanfootlong]

i use my pool to chill my wort through a wort chiller. it has a hose hook up on the pump. pump water into the chiller, then dump it back in the pool. heats my pool and cools my wort all in one.