WLP830 (German Lager Yeast) concerns...

[Brewskier]

So I found out that I probably would have been better off going with WLP838 (Southern German Lager Yeast) for my Vienna lager because it flocculates out better, ferments quicker, and has less diacetyl production. I found this out afterI had my WLP830 starter already going, so it was too late. So, I'm 4 days into my fermentation, and everything seems to be going smoothly.

I have a few concerns. I forgot to use Irish moss or whirlfloc during the boil. I was under the assumption that the lagering process should clear the beer well enough, however WLP830 does not flocculate out as well as WLP838. Should I possibly look into a fining agent, or should I not worry about it?

My major concern is diacetyl. I still have a consistent fermentation going on... at what point should I start taking gravity readings? I was told to raise the temp to 65 degrees once the gravity is 75% of the way to its FG. How long do I leave it there? Until it's done fermenting, and then drop it to 34 and lager for 3-4 weeks?

 

[Hex23]

I can share some experience with Fermentis 34/70 (which I believe is a similar or the same strain as WLP830). I don't think you have that much to worry about. I don't know if WLP838 would make a better beer, but I can tell you that the 34/70 strain will make a very clean lager. I did not use any kettle fining and the beer cleared just fine with only 1 month lagering. Whether you see diacetyl will probably be a matter of what fermentation temps you used. In my case I followed a Narziss-like scheme (start at 44F and slowly raise to 50F) and had no diacetyl. If you started at a warm temp then cooled down, then you may have some. I'd sample some first to see if you have any diacetyl before you go planning a d-rest. It might not be necessary. If you do a d-rest the technique you describe is one common way.

 

[Brewskier]

I can share some experience with Fermentis 34/70 (which I believe is a similar or the same strain as WLP830). I don't think you have that much to worry about. I don't know if WLP838 would make a better beer, but I can tell you that the 34/70 strain will make a very clean lager. I did not use any kettle fining and the beer cleared just fine with only 1 month lagering. Whether you see diacetyl will probably be a matter of what fermentation temps you used. In my case I followed a Narziss-like scheme (start at 44F and slowly raise to 50F) and had no diacetyl. If you started at a warm temp then cooled down, then you may have some. I'd sample some first to see if you have any diacetyl before you go planning a d-rest. It might not be necessary. If you do a d-rest the technique you describe is one common way.

I chilled my wort down to about 55 degrees and then pitched. Its been between 50 and 55 the whole time, which is the optimal fermentation temperature for this particular strain of yeast. I've been reading that diacetyl is usually a concern when the yeast is pitched into 60+ degree wort. Hopefully I won't have to worry about it.

 

[g-star]

WLP830 will be fine if treated right. With enough lagering time it will clear, but using gelatin before you keg will help it out.

If you made an appropriate starter and pitched the correct amount of yeast, diacetyl should be minimal. You pitched a little bit warm, it is better to start in the mid 40's and allow it to slowly rise to 50F. I would check the gravity after about 5-6 days. When you get down to 1.020 or below, raise the temp into the low 60's for 2-3 days to get rid of any diacetyl. It won't hurt the flavor profile at this point, and can only help, although it might not be entirely necessary.

 

[Brewskier]

WLP830 will be fine if treated right. With enough lagering time it will clear, but using gelatin before you keg will help it out.

If you made an appropriate starter and pitched the correct amount of yeast, diacetyl should be minimal. You pitched a little bit warm, it is better to start in the mid 40's and allow it to slowly rise to 50F. I would check the gravity after about 5-6 days. When you get down to 1.020 or below, raise the temp into the low 60's for 2-3 days to get rid of any diacetyl. It won't hurt the flavor profile at this point, and can only help, although it might not be entirely necessary.

Good advice. I'll do that.

The fermentation seems to be slowing down, now. Still a layer of krausen on the top. I'll take a gravity reading tomorrow to see where I'm at. Fermentation began slowly late Saturday night, so it's only been 5 days.

 

[Brewskier]

Would it be a good idea to chill down to ~34 degrees in the primary and letting it sit for a day before racking to a secondary fermentation ? That way I can be sure all the yeast would drop out of suspension.

Can I rack as soon as I hit FG? Or, is it like an ale, where you should let it sit a bit longer so the yeast can clean up after themselves?

 

[Hex23]

Would it be a good idea to chill down to ~34 degrees in the primary and letting it sit for a day before racking to a secondary fermentation ? That way I can be sure all the yeast would drop out of suspension.

Yes. I do this and it works well.

Can I rack as soon as I hit FG? Or, is it like an ale, where you should let it sit a bit longer so the yeast can clean up after themselves?

I've done both and haven't sensed much difference. Often I'm a little lazy and will wait 2-3 weeks of total fermentation to rack. Once I didn't rack at all other than to keg, taking more of a LPNS approach. I know this is supposedly bad practice with a lager, but it still turned out fine. With good pitching rates and temps, even at 10 days with my lagers I don't taste any greenness or diacetyl.

 

[Hex23]

Would it be a good idea to chill down to ~34 degrees in the primary and letting it sit for a day before racking to a secondary fermentation ? That way I can be sure all the yeast would drop out of suspension.

Can I rack as soon as I hit FG? Or, is it like an ale, where you should let it sit a bit longer so the yeast can clean up after themselves?

I should ask whether you will be bottling conditioning or kegging. I assumed you were kegging. If you are bottling and priming , you might not want to crash cool but instead gradually reduce temps.

By the way, there is lots of great info on braukaiser's website about the rationale for following various techniques with lagers.

 

[Brewskier]

I should ask whether you will be bottling conditioning or kegging. I assumed you were kegging. If you are bottling and priming , you might not want to crash cool but instead gradually reduce temps.

By the way, there is lots of great info on braukaiser's website about the rationale for following various techniques with lagers.

Thanks. Yeah, I'm going to keg this one.

I did a gravity reading yesterday even though the airlock is still bubbling and there's a thin layer of krausen on top. Lots of yeast in the sample, very cloudy, but the gravity is 1.021. That's about where it needs to be for the diacetyl rest, so I turned up my fridge and it's currently sitting at 57 degrees. I plan on getting it to 62 degrees or so and leaving it there until the fermentation is done. Or should I wait 2-3 days and if it has any more time left to go, bring the temp back down to 50? I don't want to risk any off flavors, but people told me the bulk of the fermentation should be done by now, so that shouldn't happen.

The sample tasted yeasty, but I didn't detect any buttered popcorn like flavors. Still very green, but I didn't notice anything out of the ordinary. Maybe I'm just not good at identifying these flavors. I figure a diacetyl rest couldn't hurt.

 

[Hex23]

Or should I wait 2-3 days and if it has any more time left to go, bring the temp back down to 50? I don't want to risk any off flavors, but people told me the bulk of the fermentation should be done by now, so that shouldn't happen.

Definitely won't hurt to do the d-rest (2-3 days), then drop temps back down to force yeast to flocc out before racking. Just make sure you've reached FG before dropping temps. If you're going to do that, go ahead and drop the temp all the way down to 34 or so. The yeast are done and you want to clear them as fast as possible. Giving them an immediate drop to 34 will do that fastest. Just be careful about the condensation that will be on your primary fermenter when you rack. I caused myself a huge mess once because of it.

Otherwise, if it has not hit FG at the end of a 2-3 day d-rest, there's no need to drop the temps back down to 50. Just leave it at the higher temps since it will finish faster that way.

What you've heard is generally right. Many off flavors would happen in the growth/lag phase (probably first 48-72 hours for lager). Raising the temp for a d-rest is not going to create off flavors, but rather speed up the yeast metabolism to help remove any. What I've found is that with good pitching rates and good temp control, I can end primary with no detectable diacetyl or acetaldehyde. In that case I can just skip a d-rest. In your case, if you do detect some "greenness", a d-rest would help that too.

 

[Brewskier]

Definitely won't hurt to do the d-rest (2-3 days), then drop temps back down to force yeast to flocc out before racking. Just make sure you've reached FG before dropping temps. If you're going to do that, go ahead and drop the temp all the way down to 34 or so. The yeast are done and you want to clear them as fast as possible. Giving them an immediate drop to 34 will do that fastest. Just be careful about the condensation that will be on your primary fermenter when you rack. I caused myself a huge mess once because of it.

Otherwise, if it has not hit FG at the end of a 2-3 day d-rest, there's no need to drop the temps back down to 50. Just leave it at the higher temps since it will finish faster that way.

What you've heard is generally right. Many off flavors would happen in the growth/lag phase (probably first 48-72 hours for lager). Raising the temp for a d-rest is not going to create off flavors, but rather speed up the yeast metabolism to help remove any. What I've found is that with good pitching rates and good temp control, I can end primary with no detectable diacetyl or acetaldehyde. In that case I can just skip a d-rest. In your case, if you do detect some "greenness", a d-rest would help that too.

Great, thanks for the advice.

The fermentation has slowed down quite a bit. One bubble every 15 seconds or so, now. I hope there's enough left to get the gravity down lower. According to Beersmith, this should finish at around 1.012.

There's a still a layer of yeast and CO2 bubbles at the top. I hope these clear out. I was worried I had an infection at first.

 

[Hex23]

Great, thanks for the advice.

The fermentation has slowed down quite a bit. One bubble every 15 seconds or so, now. I hope there's enough left to get the gravity down lower. According to Beersmith, this should finish at around 1.012.

If you've got CO2 production, then it's still fermenting so probably a good chance it will get there. On the other hand it's possible that it's just off gassing due to the raised temps. However, if it doesn't get all the way there don't fret. Let's say it only gets to 1.015 or 1.016 ... If it tastes good and the body is fine, then go ahead and rack. My Oktoberfest with 34/70 was supposedly going to hit 1.012, but it stalled out at 1.018. I was going to take some measures to push it the rest of the way, then decided why bother, I liked the taste where it was.

There's a still a layer of yeast and CO2 bubbles at the top. I hope these clear out. I was worried I had an infection at first.

Don't worry if it doesn't clear. I've had many beers that I could not get the krausen to completely fall, even after crash chilling. The only downside is that you have to rack through it and it could transfer a little extra yeast. Not a big deal. On one beer it was so much, I had to knock it own with a spoon to get it out of the way, then wait an extra day. But it's really just a personal choice.

One note on this:

The yeast are done and you want to clear them as fast as possible.

I realize this could be unclear. I really only meant for convenience sake, not because doing otherwise will make the beer taste bad.

 

[Brewskier]

If you've got CO2 production, then it's still fermenting so probably a good chance it will get there. On the other hand it's possible that it's just off gassing due to the raised temps. However, if it doesn't get all the way there don't fret. Let's say it only gets to 1.015 or 1.016 ... If it tastes good and the body is fine, then go ahead and rack. My Oktoberfest with 34/70 was supposedly going to hit 1.012, but it stalled out at 1.018. I was going to take some measures to push it the rest of the way, then decided why bother, I liked the taste where it was.



Don't worry if it doesn't clear. I've had many beers that I could not get the krausen to completely fall, even after crash chilling. The only downside is that you have to rack through it and it could transfer a little extra yeast. Not a big deal. On one beer it was so much, I had to knock it own with a spoon to get it out of the way, then wait an extra day. But it's really just a personal choice.

One note on this:



I realize this could be unclear. I really only meant for convenience sake, not because doing otherwise will make the beer taste bad.

I'll probably check the gravity in a few more days to see where I'm at. It's only been 7 days since I pitched. When I do ales, I let it sit 3 weeks on the trub. Possibly racking after 10 days or so is going to seem weird to me.

If it stalls at 1.015 or above, I won't be too upset. I didn't use O2 in this batch and I probably could have done a better job of making sure it was aerated enough, but live and learn. I did use yeast nutrient, though. I still have some high hopes for this one.

Thanks for your advice.

 

[Brewskier]

Well I'm excited now. Just took a gravity sample yesterday and I'm at 1.014. I was aiming for 1.012 but this is close enough. It may drop a little more when I cool it down to settle out all the yeast. It's already very clear, the color is perfect, and it tastes awesome. No off flavors detected.

I am currently chilling the beer down to 34 to settle out the yeast, then I will rack to a secondary vessel. I don't think this will need to be lagered very long. I'll go 2 weeks and check the flavor at that point.

 

[Hex23]

I am currently chilling the beer down to 34 to settle out the yeast, then I will rack to a secondary vessel. I don't think this will need to be lagered very long. I'll go 2 weeks and check the flavor at that point.

I think a 2 week lagering is a good idea, especially since you already like the taste. I realize it wouldn't be the conventional wisdom of 1 week lagering per 8-10 OG points, but often I've found that extended lagering time makes little difference, especially on a beer that comes out of primary tasting good already.

 

[Brewskier]

I think a 2 week lagering is a good idea, especially since you already like the taste. I realize it wouldn't be the conventional wisdom of 1 week lagering per 8-10 OG points, but often I've found that extended lagering time makes little difference, especially on a beer that comes out of primary tasting good already.

What's crazy is that I just pitched the yeast 10 days ago and the beer already tastes like I believe it should. I wouldn't imagine that it would need 5 weeks, but if after 2 it still isn't where I want it, I'll just keep in there longer.

 

[Hex23]

Yes, it was surprising on my first few lagers too. I felt like I could drink them straight out of primary with no extra carbonation. The lower temps and lager yeasts just don't throw off as many off-flavors that need to be cleaned up. I've had lagers that did benefit from 1-2 month cold conditioning. But on a couple I would even say they didn't taste quite as good once they were kegged and carbed. I never really did pinpoint the cause of those - could be keg contamination, who knows. One was a Warsteiner clone and I swear it was spot on right out of primary. After kegging and lagering for a month, it took on a slightly tart ester-like flavor, still drinkable, but lacked that malty tasted I get in Warsteiner. Sounds like your beer is turning out to be good one.

 

[Brewskier]

Yes, it was surprising on my first few lagers too. I felt like I could drink them straight out of primary with no extra carbonation. The lower temps and lager yeasts just don't throw off as many off-flavors that need to be cleaned up. I've had lagers that did benefit from 1-2 month cold conditioning. But on a couple I would even say they didn't taste quite as good once they were kegged and carbed. I never really did pinpoint the cause of those - could be keg contamination, who knows. One was a Warsteiner clone and I swear it was spot on right out of primary. After kegging and lagering for a month, it took on a slightly tart ester-like flavor, still drinkable, but lacked that malty tasted I get in Warsteiner. Sounds like your beer is turning out to be good one.

I certainly hope so. My first attempt at lagering was a mess. The only batch I ever dumped because it truly tasted bad. I could use a success, and now that I know it doesn't necessarily take longer than ales to brew (about a month each, at this rate), I might brew more lagers. This was also my first partial mash, so if I can have a success on that front as well, I'd say this will be a winning batch.