WLP644 -Brett B Trois

[BrewinHooligan]

cant it somehow make a pellicle though? I just would consider it as brett since it behaves like one adn tastes like one. Kind of like how i stubbornly refuse to call a tomato a fruit

I think most people that did a brett saison did 100% brett. All brett beers just come out as super fruity, zero funk

It's a wild sacc strain. Sacc can throw a pellicle and this one does, most sacc strains generally do not though.

 

[TheHairyHop]

cant it somehow make a pellicle though? I just would consider it as brett since it behaves like one adn tastes like one. Kind of like how i stubbornly refuse to call a tomato a fruit

I think most people that did a brett saison did 100% brett. All brett beers just come out as super fruity, zero funk

brett will eat things that sacch won't though, correct? there were a few cases of people trying to bottle age with 644 and basically came up with nothing, if I recall. I could be recounting these stories wrong, but almost all signs point to 644 just being an interesting sacch. it would be like calling german or belgian strains "brett like" just because they produce interesting flavors.

 

[nmelione]

If Im not going to use a starter how many vials would you recommend to pitch with a starting gravity of 1.058

 

[BrewinHooligan]

If Im not going to use a starter how many vials would you recommend to pitch with a starting gravity of 1.058

I would say 3-4 minimum unless since acknowledging it is a sacc strain white labs has increased the cell counts. I have used this in 1 liter starters of 1.03og wort that have only gone 3 days before pitching with really good success

 

[MattHollingsworth]

I would say 3-4 minimum unless since acknowledging it is a sacc strain white labs has increased the cell counts. I have used this in 1 liter starters of 1.03og wort that have only gone 3 days before pitching with really good success

Do you have any link to any information saying they increased cell count? I made a starter with this only a few weeks ago from a relatively fresh batch and it had a very low cell count. Visually, it looked to be the usual low cell count that Brett strains get from White Labs and certainly nowhere near the cell count of their vials of "clean" yeast.

 

[nmelione]

I just spoke to someone at Northern Brewer and they told me the cell count was 100B... not sure if I believe it...

Nick M.
Would you be able to tell me the cell count on WLP644?

Craig B.
That is approximately 100 Billion cells

 

[Coff]

White Labs has said repeatedly that they consider Trois a "wild sacch strain" and will continue to package it in the same manner as all of their Brett and Bacteria products. Unless something has changed, those vials have the same cell counts as their Brett vials. Which is in the 3-5 billion/vial range.

 

[BrewinHooligan]

Do you have any link to any information saying they increased cell count? I made a starter with this only a few weeks ago from a relatively fresh batch and it had a very low cell count. Visually, it looked to be the usual low cell count that Brett strains get from White Labs and certainly nowhere near the cell count of their vials of "clean" yeast.

I never said that they increased the cell count. I assumed that they did not. I was saying "unless they increased the cell count"

 

[m00ps]

If Im not going to use a starter how many vials would you recommend to pitch with a starting gravity of 1.058

That is such BS about White Labs not increasing their cell count to reasonable levels for this strain. Judging by the volume of slurry in the vial compared to normal sacch ones, in addition to the general consensus that you want lager-level pitch rates for all-brett beers, I think youd need like 8 vials.

Not worth it IMO, just make a starter well ahead of your brewday and start it up. Would be much cheaper than paying for that many vials

 

[nmelione]

That is such BS about White Labs not increasing their cell count to reasonable levels for this strain. Judging by the volume of slurry in the vial compared to normal sacch ones, in addition to the general consensus that you want lager-level pitch rates for all-brett beers, I think youd need like 8 vials.

Not worth it IMO, just make a starter well ahead of your brewday and start it up. Would be much cheaper than paying for that many vials

I completely agree. Unfortunately due to my brewing situation (I live in NYC but brew at my parents in NJ due to the limited space) a long starter isn't possible. I brew about once a month and I'm only there for a weekend to brew, so I normally get my starter going Friday night and brew on Sunday, which is normally perfect, but I do not think that is nearly enough time for this yeast. Was hoping to just purchase multiple vials and direct pitch.

 

[m00ps]

I completely agree. Unfortunately due to my brewing situation (I live in NYC but brew at my parents in NJ due to the limited space) a long starter isn't possible. Im only there for a weekend to brew, so I normally get my starter going Friday night and brew on Sunday with it, which is normally perfect, but I do not think that is nearly enough time for this yeast. Was hoping to just purchase multiple vials and direct pitch.

LOL, I remember moving into my new place, sitting in the back of my parents car with a yeast vial next to me, shaking it intermittently. I was determined to brew that weekend and wasn't gonna let "real" life stop me.

Does your store carry other brands of yeast? I know that some of the smaller ones like Gigayeast, Omega Yeast, and The Yeast Bay, have a similar cell count for their brett and bacteria as sacch. YB Amalgamation id definitely recommend for an all-brett beer

 

[nmelione]

LOL, I remember moving into my new place, sitting in the back of my parents car with a yeast vial next to me, shaking it intermittently. I was determined to brew that weekend and wasn't gonna let "real" life stop me.

Does your store carry other brands of yeast? I know that some of the smaller ones like Gigayeast, Omega Yeast, and The Yeast Bay, have a similar cell count for their brett and bacteria as sacch. YB Amalgamation id definitely recommend for an all-brett beer

Lol yea its not ideal, started brewing in my apartment but as i'm sure you are aware the equipment adds up fast and I quickly out grew my tiny studio.

Looks like i might have to go another route, seems like Omega OLY-210 might be the closest substitute. Thanks for all the help.

 

[bolus14]

Could make your yeast starter at your place, only need enough space for a growler on the counter. Then throw it in the fridge Wed or Thurs before you go to your parents. Decant it Friday or Sat before you go to their place and you're good to go.

 

[Calder]

That is such BS about White Labs not increasing their cell count to reasonable levels for this strain.

I have a fresh vial in my hand right now. It has a low cell count. The yeast only makes it up to about half way up the rounded bottom.

........ in addition to the general consensus that you want lager-level pitch rates for all-brett beers, I think youd need like 8 vials.

Despite the name having the word 'Brett' in it, this is NOT a Brett strain, so you would pitch at normal sacc rates.

I completely agree. Unfortunately due to my brewing situation (I live in NYC but brew at my parents in NJ due to the limited space) a long starter isn't possible. I brew about once a month and I'm only there for a weekend to brew, so I normally get my starter going Friday night and brew on Sunday, which is normally perfect, but I do not think that is nearly enough time for this yeast. Was hoping to just purchase multiple vials and direct pitch.

You could use a 2 liter soda bottle for a starter.

Several vials will get expensive. If you don't want to make a big Starter, make a small session beer (1.040) and just direct pitch. Probably be under-pitching, but should work, and then you can use the cake for your next beer.

 

[nmelione]

thanks everyone for the tips. I think I may have found a great substitute.

Imperial Yeast A20 Citrus - ~200 Billion cell count
When you want to use Brett, but you don’t. Citrus cranks out orange and lemon aromas along with some tropical fruit. Use this strain at high temps for big ester production. As funky as saccharomyces gets.

Temp: 67-80 // Flocculation: low // Attenuation:74-78%

 

[MattHollingsworth]

I never said that they increased the cell count. I assumed that they did not. I was saying "unless they increased the cell count"

Ah! Sorry! I misread that.

Yeah, they definitely did NOT increase cell count, which is pretty much bull****. Most people I know use this strain for 100% of the fermentation and have to do multi step starters over a couple of weeks. They're ripping us off. Really lovely yeast, but this is not Brett and should be sold to us in the same quantity as other non Brett strains.

 

[MattHollingsworth]

LOL, I remember moving into my new place, sitting in the back of my parents car with a yeast vial next to me, shaking it intermittently. I was determined to brew that weekend and wasn't gonna let "real" life stop me.

Does your store carry other brands of yeast? I know that some of the smaller ones like Gigayeast, Omega Yeast, and The Yeast Bay, have a similar cell count for their brett and bacteria as sacch. YB Amalgamation id definitely recommend for an all-brett beer

Actually, with regards to Yeast Bay, that is not accurate. They have a small cell count as well, ~2 billion cells per vial for vials that contain only Brett.

PRODUCT INFORMATION
Cell Counts. Saccharomyces single strains and blends will contain ~80 billion cells per vial. Brettanomyces single strains and blends and Lactobacillus and Pediococcus single strains and blends will contain ~2 billion cells per vial.
Saccharomyces/Brettanomyces/Lactobacillus/Pediococcus blends will contain a variable number of cells depending on the blend, and the approximate cell count will be listed on the ordering page.

http://www.theyeastbay.com/policies-and-product-information/

 

[BrewinHooligan]

Ah! Sorry! I misread that.



Yeah, they definitely did NOT increase cell count, which is pretty much bull****. Most people I know use this strain for 100% of the fermentation and have to do multi step starters over a couple of weeks. They're ripping us off. Really lovely yeast, but this is not Brett and should be sold to us in the same quantity as other non Brett strains.

Well I know I'm only one person but my experience using this yeast is that I get excellent results with an IPA with a 1.06og using a single stage starter that is only 1 liter with 1.03og starter wort. Make the starter Wednesday and pitch Saturday or Sunday and have complete fermentation in about one week at room temp and the finished beer tastes great. I do let it sit 2 weeks, then dry hop for one week, then package. Maybe stressing it the way I do causes the great fruity/funky flavors I get with this yeast.

 

[dantheman13]

thanks everyone for the tips. I think I may have found a great substitute.

Imperial Yeast A20 Citrus - ~200 Billion cell count
When you want to use Brett, but you don’t. Citrus cranks out orange and lemon aromas along with some tropical fruit. Use this strain at high temps for big ester production. As funky as saccharomyces gets.

Temp: 67-80 // Flocculation: low // Attenuation:74-78%

Good choice, IMO. Their "A20 Citrus" is the same as WLP644 Trois, and the pitch rate is much higher.

 

[bmiller8]

Bottling question with WLP644. I made a saison with this and keep in primary for 8 months. Bottled and added a carbonation drop. After three weeks, I cracked one bottle open and it had minimal carbonation. Wait longer or should I open bottles and add some yeast?

 

[dantheman13]

Bottling question with WLP644. I made a saison with this and keep in primary for 8 months. Bottled and added a carbonation drop. After three weeks, I cracked one bottle open and it had minimal carbonation. Wait longer or should I open bottles and add some yeast?

There's no reason to keep a Trois beer in primary for 8 months. After 1-2 months max it is done because it's Saccharomyces. I would try re-yeasting.

 

[Calder]

Bottling question with WLP644. I made a saison with this and keep in primary for 8 months. Bottled and added a carbonation drop. After three weeks, I cracked one bottle open and it had minimal carbonation. Wait longer or should I open bottles and add some yeast?

I'd leave them alone since they are already bottled.

I would have re-yeasted at bottling, because that is what I do with a beer that has been standing for 6 months. But there is yeast present and they will eventually carb; just may take a few months.

 

[bmiller8]

I'd leave them alone since they are already bottled.



I would have re-yeasted at bottling, because that is what I do with a beer that has been standing for 6 months. But there is yeast present and they will eventually carb; just may take a few months.

Thanks! I always thought I've heard that yeast is present for up to a year but was sort of freaking out. I also bottled another 2 cases with wlp645 and one with 653 and they were fine. That was my cause for concern

 

[bmiller8]

I'd leave them alone since they are already bottled.



I would have re-yeasted at bottling, because that is what I do with a beer that has been standing for 6 months. But there is yeast present and they will eventually carb; just may take a few months.

Thanks! I always thought I've heard that yeast is present for up to a year but was sort of freaking out. I also bottled another case with wlp645 and one with 653 and they were fine. That was my cause for concern

 

[bmiller8]

I'd leave them alone since they are already bottled.



I would have re-yeasted at bottling, because that is what I do with a beer that has been standing for 6 months. But there is yeast present and they will eventually carb; just may take a few months.

hanks! I always thought I've heard that yeast is present for up to a year but was sort of freaking out. I also bottled another case with wlp645 and one with 653 and they were fine. That was my cause for concern

 

[bmiller8]

Thanks! I always thought I've heard that yeast is present for up to a year but was sort of freaking out. I also bottled another case with wlp645 and one with 653 and they were fine. That was my cause for concern

 

[jackwhite]

So my LHBS sold me WLP644 because I wanted to do a 100% brett. Well, I now see that won't be the case but the discussion around this yeast seems it's still an interesting yeast. I have a special recipe I have been wanting to do and would like some feed back about using this yeast. It's an Old World IPA btw. I am looking for high attenuation and some wildness. Thoughts?

5 gallon batch
70% efficiency

15lbs Maris (1.070)
200 IBU's from English hops [BOADICEA, EKG, Fuggles, Challenger maybe or Northdown(90min boil)]

Dry hop

Mash 148 for 85%++ attenuation
Primary 2-4 weeks
Secondary for ?? months

 

[BrewinHooligan]

So my LHBS sold me WLP644 because I wanted to do a 100% brett. Well, I now see that won't be the case but the discussion around this yeast seems it's still an interesting yeast. I have a special recipe I have been wanting to do and would like some feed back about using this yeast. It's an Old World IPA btw. I am looking for high attenuation and some wildness. Thoughts?



5 gallon batch

70% efficiency



15lbs Maris (1.070)

200 IBU's from English hops [BOADICEA, EKG, Fuggles, Challenger maybe or Northdown(90min boil)]



Dry hop



Mash 148 for 85%++ attenuation

Primary 2-4 weeks

Secondary for ?? months

Secondary isn't necessary, it doesn't change over time like Brett does. It produces mostly fruity flavors along with some "funk". I wouldn't suggest using English hops personally. I would suggest hops that are more fruity than earthy but that's just me. I will say that with this yeast the hops don't seem to fade as fast as with normal sacc strains.

 

[MattHollingsworth]

What BrewinHooligan wrote. I would also argue that it's not necessary to mash low to get high attenuation. This yeast will give high attenuation no matter the mash temp.

 

[sweetcell]

It's an Old World IPA btw. I am looking for high attenuation and some wildness. Thoughts?

5 gallon batch
70% efficiency

15lbs Maris (1.070)
200 IBU's from English hops [BOADICEA, EKG, Fuggles, Challenger maybe or Northdown(90min boil)]

Dry hop

Mash 148 for 85%++ attenuation
Primary 2-4 weeks
Secondary for ?? months

random thoughts, YMMV:
- why 200 IBUs? you're not going to get that much anyways, so you're just wasting hops. are you planning on putting them all at the start of the boil, or will you add any late hops?
- MattHollingsworth stated that you'll get high attenuation at any mash temp, so i'll defer to him, but my experience was that 644's attenuation wasn't all that great. it wasn't horrible, but i would like liked 4-5 points less. if there's no harm in mashing low, i would stick with that plan. again, YMMV.
- a long secondary not needed with 644. give it 3-5 weeks in primary (until gravity is stable) and then package.