WLP644 -Brett B Trois

[theveganbrewer]

What are the thoughts on Brett Trois making bitterness stronger? I haven't seen that anywhere before until this thread.

 

[Tiroux]

What are the thoughts on Brett Trois making bitterness stronger? I haven't seen that anywhere before until this thread.

The FG goes down more. Lower FG = increase perception of bitterness, that's all.

 

[dcp27]

The FG goes down more. Lower FG = increase perception of bitterness, that's all.

sure it goes down more, but not that much. every all brett i've done has been about 80-85% attenuation which is barely lower than chico would take it

 

[Tiroux]

Well.. I expect a normal IPA tongo down to around 1010 to a 60-70 ibus. For a 644 ipa, i would expect maybe 1005. So 55-60 ibus seems just right.

Chico or 001 enhance bitterness also, compared to an english strain.

 

[dcp27]

. For a 644 ipa, i would expect maybe 1005.

and this is based on what?

all the ones i've done put it around 1.008-1.012

same goes for this one: http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2012/07/100-brett-trois-ipa-recipe.html

and this one: http://www.bear-flavored.com/2013/05/recipe-and-tasting-notes-100-brett.html

 

[theveganbrewer]

and this is based on what?

all the ones i've done put it around 1.008-1.012

same goes for this one: http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2012/07/100-brett-trois-ipa-recipe.html

and this one: http://www.bear-flavored.com/2013/05/recipe-and-tasting-notes-100-brett.html

That's why I brought up the question of IBUs, I think both of those are around 100, aren't they?

 

[cjalderman]

Not talking of bitterness here. The IBUs are just fine since the FG will be low. But not enough aromatic. Convert it to a 5g batch and it's 2.5oz or aromatic hops. Bitterness will overcome and that's not going to be a balanced hoppy beer, just a bittet pale ale.

And in my opinion, oats flavor just don't go with fruitu hops. It might gives you more mouthfeel, which is good, but also an intense flavor. If you want to increase mouthfeel, i suggest a tiny amount of rye flakes or malt, which gives you a greater texture with a less intense, well-blending taste.

As for the wheat.. I love wheat ipa.. But you just have to know it's going to be a wheat ipa

But hey, this is only my opinion!

I like the flaked rye suggestion, probably gonna go with that. How much aroma hops do you usually shoot for in your ipa's?

 

[Tiroux]

I like the flaked rye suggestion, probably gonna go with that. How much aroma hops do you usually shoot for in your ipa's?

I would never go less than 5 or 6oz for an IPA.

 

[Tiroux]

Ok I just tasted the second step of starter... HOLY WOW!
That tastes like a pineapple berliner weisse. It is acidic, but it is so good.
I'm gonna brew a Brett Trois berliner weisse, that's for sure!

But now I'm gonna decant it because I don't want that acidic note in my DIPA.

 

[badlee]

if you drink your DIPA inside of,say 2-3 months,then you will not even get a hint of tartness showing through the hops.
Keep it for 6 months upward and then you will get a bit of acidity.

 

[nofootbreak]

I bottle conditioned about 1/4 of my berliner weisse with this yeast and I really dont like the way this strain comes through. Just far too much over ripe stone fruit.

 

[ryanhope]

I bottle conditioned about 1/4 of my berliner weisse with this yeast and I really dont like the way this strain comes through. Just far too much over ripe stone fruit.

A friend of mine also fermented a berliner with WLP644 and it smells like parmesan cheese. Pretty nasty but that might change with time.

 

[Tiroux]

What is a normal lagtime with this strain? I pitched a starter in 5 gallons of 1075 wort, 36hours ago. Nothing yet, except the airlock sucjing back water because the temp goes down last night. It was 1.25 et 1.75 starter (5days each step) starter with 3 vials, i pitched 2/3 of this starter.

 

[kaips1]

What is a normal lagtime with this strain? I pitched a starter in 5 gallons of 1075 wort, 36hours ago. Nothing yet, except the airlock sucjing back water because the temp goes down last night. It was 1.25 et 1.75 starter (5days each step) starter with 3 vials, i pitched 2/3 of this starter.

I never saw airlock activity with my first trois batch but it fermented just fine.

 

[lawbadger]

What is a normal lagtime with this strain? I pitched a starter in 5 gallons of 1075 wort, 36hours ago. Nothing yet, except the airlock sucjing back water because the temp goes down last night. It was 1.25 et 1.75 starter (5days each step) starter with 3 vials, i pitched 2/3 of this starter.

I pitched two vials directly into a 1.052 all-Brett IPA and ended up having a blow off a day and a half into fermentation. I wonder if aeration or your fermentation temps have something to do with the lag / lack of visible fermentation. But like other folks have mentioned, Brett Trois will chew through anything even if there's no visible signs of fermentation.

 

[JLem]

What is a normal lagtime with this strain? I pitched a starter in 5 gallons of 1075 wort, 36hours ago. Nothing yet, except the airlock sucjing back water because the temp goes down last night. It was 1.25 et 1.75 starter (5days each step) starter with 3 vials, i pitched 2/3 of this starter.

Given you made a starter I would be surprised if you do not have any fermentation...though lack of airlock activity is not a reliable indicator of a lack of fermentation - have you taken a look at the beer to see if you have other physical evidence? If you are really worried, take a gravity reading and see if it has decreased.

What temp is the beer at? You mentioned that it got cold overnight, so I wonder if it is too cold???

 

[Tiroux]

Given you made a starter I would be surprised if you do not have any fermentation...though lack of airlock activity is not a reliable indicator of a lack of fermentation - have you taken a look at the beer to see if you have other physical evidence? If you are really worried, take a gravity reading and see if it has decreased.

What temp is the beer at? You mentioned that it got cold overnight, so I wonder if it is too cold???

It is a carboy.. so I see the beer, and the surface is pretty still, no krausen, just rare bubble boats. The temp when down to 72. Now i went back up to 78. The airlocks are bubbling.. but I guess it is just the head space air that is expanding. I don't see why it would not ferment.. I had like 200-250ml of yeast slurry after I decanted the starter, which had krausen at the second step.

 

[BrasseurGeorges]

It is a carboy.. so I see the beer, and the surface is pretty still, no krausen, just rare bubble boats. The temp when down to 72. Now i went back up to 78. The airlocks are bubbling.. but I guess it is just the head space air that is expanding. I don't see why it would not ferment.. I had like 200-250ml of yeast slurry after I decanted the starter, which had krausen at the second step.

Don't worry, mine have taken about 48 hrs and from what I've followed you haven't done anything wrong. Once it gets going I've had an aggressive fermentation with plenty of airlock activity and good attenuation.

 

[BrasseurGeorges]

A friend of mine also fermented a berliner with WLP644 and it smells like parmesan cheese. Pretty nasty but that might change with time.

Interesting. About as close as I can come is a hint of butterscotch (ethyl lactate?) in the background. Looking at this chart in Wild Brews, most of the things referred to as "cheesy" are acids. I wonder if the cheesy element doesn't come from the sour mash as opposed to the brett. Good news is it looks like esterification of these cheesy acids results in fruity characteristics, so hopefully with time it'll come around.

 

[ryanhope]

Interesting. About as close as I can come is a hint of butterscotch (ethyl lactate?) in the background. Looking at this chart in Wild Brews, most of the things referred to as "cheesy" are acids. I wonder if the cheesy element doesn't come from the sour mash as opposed to the brett. Good news is it looks like esterification of these cheesy acids results in fruity characteristics, so hopefully with time it'll come around.

http://beersensoryscience.wordpress.com/2010/12/09/isovaleric-acid/

 

[BrasseurGeorges]

http://beersensoryscience.wordpress.com/2010/12/09/isovaleric-acid/

I see both Isovaleric and Isobutyric acids listed as being cheesy, though none specifically listed as Parmesan. Hard to say...

 

[cjalderman]

Alright, round two. Tell me what y'all think for this.
Brett Trois IPA - 3.0 gal
OG: 1.061
IBU: 57.0
SRM: 5.1
75% efficiency

4 lbs 2-row 60.4%
2 lbs White Wheat 30.2%
8.0 oz Golden Naked Oats 7.5%
4.0 oz Acidulated Malt 1.9%

8g Columbus (14.0%) FWH 60 min
10g Pacific Jade (14.4%) 10 min
10g Motueka (6.7%) 5 min
10g Nelson Sauvin (12.5%) 5 min
10g Pacific Jade 5 min
10g Motueka 0 min
10g Nelson Sauvin 0 min
8.35g each of Motueka, Nelson Sauvin, and Pacific Jade dry hop

 

[JLem]

Alright, round two. Tell me what y'all think for this.
Brett Trois IPA - 3.0 gal
OG: 1.061
IBU: 57.0
SRM: 5.1
75% efficiency

4 lbs 2-row 60.4%
2 lbs White Wheat 30.2%
8.0 oz Golden Naked Oats 7.5%
4.0 oz Acidulated Malt 1.9%

8g Columbus (14.0%) FWH 60 min
10g Pacific Jade (14.4%) 10 min
10g Motueka (6.7%) 5 min
10g Nelson Sauvin (12.5%) 5 min
10g Pacific Jade 5 min
10g Motueka 0 min
10g Nelson Sauvin 0 min
8.35g each of Motueka, Nelson Sauvin, and Pacific Jade dry hop

Looks excellent to me. Can't think of anything I'd change. I think you'll love the combination of this yeast an those hops. What's also cool about this yeast is that you'll probably have a tasty/interesting beer even after the hops drop out. You should put a few bottles aside and see how it ages - I bet it will age a lot better than most IPAs.

 

[Brulosopher]

My first starter of 644 has been on a stir plate for the last 5 days, I just turned the stir plate off and plan to let it sit at 74F until I pitch on Thursday. How does this sound?

Here's my plan and recipe for Thursday's brew day... I'll take all the help I can get!

Batch Size: 10 gallons split into 2 x 5 gallons Brewhouse Efficiency: 75%
Expected OG: 1.055
Expected FG: 1.005 (or less)
SRM: 5
IBU: 32

GRAIN BILL
10.50 lbs German Pilsner Malt
4.50 lbs White Wheat Malt
3.00 lbs Munich Malt - 10L
1.50 lbs Acidulated Malt
1.50 lbs Flaked Oats

HOP SCHEDULE
20 grams CTZ [12.90%] @ 55 min
20 grams EKG [7.80%] @ 25 min
24 grams CTZ [12.90%] @ 10 min
30 grams Cascade [12.90%] @ 5 min

YEASTS
WLP644 Brettanomyces Bruxellensis Trois Yeast for half
Wyeast Roeselare Blend for half

PROCESS
Mash @ 150F for 60 min
Split wort into two 6 gallon carboys and pitch both yeasts (1.5 L of Brett Trois starter, smack-pack of Roeselare) at 68˚; allow to ferment at this temp for 5-7 days then move to 74˚ sour closet for batch conditioning and aging

**For the Brett Trois Blonde: Move back to ferm chamber after 3 weeks and cold crash to 33˚ for 3 days, keg and lager a bit while carbonating, then serve. Grain to glass in 5-6 weeks.

**For the Roeselare Blonde: Keep in sour closet for 11+ months or until it develops appropriate sourness; bottle condition.

 

[ryanhope]

I see both Isovaleric and Isobutyric acids listed as being cheesy, though none specifically listed as Parmesan. Hard to say...

Cheesy is very generic, I smelled a very specific type of cheese You might smell something else for your particular batch.

 

[ryanhope]

My first starter of 644 has been on a stir plate for the last 5 days, I just turned the stir plate off and plan to let it sit at 74F until I pitch on Thursday. How does this sound?

Here's my plan and recipe for Thursday's brew day... I'll take all the help I can get!

Batch Size: 10 gallons split into 2 x 5 gallons Brewhouse Efficiency: 75%
Expected OG: 1.055
Expected FG: 1.005 (or less)
SRM: 5
IBU: 32

GRAIN BILL
10.50 lbs German Pilsner Malt
4.50 lbs White Wheat Malt
3.00 lbs Munich Malt - 10L
1.50 lbs Acidulated Malt
1.50 lbs Flaked Oats

HOP SCHEDULE
20 grams CTZ [12.90%] @ 55 min
20 grams EKG [7.80%] @ 25 min
24 grams CTZ [12.90%] @ 10 min
30 grams Cascade [12.90%] @ 5 min

YEASTS
WLP644 Brettanomyces Bruxellensis Trois Yeast for half
Wyeast Roeselare Blend for half

PROCESS
Mash @ 150F for 60 min
Split wort into two 6 gallon carboys and pitch both yeasts (1.5 L of Brett Trois starter, smack-pack of Roeselare) at 68˚; allow to ferment at this temp for 5-7 days then move to 74˚ sour closet for batch conditioning and aging

**For the Brett Trois Blonde: Move back to ferm chamber after 3 weeks and cold crash to 33˚ for 3 days, keg and lager a bit while carbonating, then serve. Grain to glass in 5-6 weeks.

**For the Roeselare Blonde: Keep in sour closet for 11+ months or until it develops appropriate sourness; bottle condition.

I would ditch the oats, that might also be too much wheat. This is tough with the split batch. The bugs in the Roeselare batch will definitely eat though everything over the 11+ months but I think you are gonna have too much mouth feel in your blond if you are going to be drinking it within 2 months.

 

[Brulosopher]

I would ditch the oats, that might also be too much wheat. This is tough with the split batch. The bugs in the Roeselare batch will definitely eat though everything over the 11+ months but I think you are gonna have too much mouth feel in your blond if you are going to be drinking it within 2 months.

Thanks for the input!

Hmm, I have a friend who has one BoS in multiple comps with his 100% Brett IPA using 644 (it's so good), he's the one who recommended making just a 1 L starter using a fresh vial... he's also the one who helped me design this beer- wheat, oats, and all. I am now both confused and totally open to changing the recipe! Anyone else care to chime in?

 

[ryanhope]

Thanks for the input!

Hmm, I have a friend who has one BoS in multiple comps with his 100% Brett IPA using 644 (it's so good), he's the one who recommended making just a 1 L starter using a fresh vial... he's also the one who helped me design this beer- wheat, oats, and all. I am now both confused and totally open to changing the recipe! Anyone else care to chime in?

Well IPAs are easy with this yeast, especially with all those citrus and tropical fruit hops. Blond ales are much different.

 

[BrasseurGeorges]

Thanks for the input!

Hmm, I have a friend who has one BoS in multiple comps with his 100% Brett IPA using 644 (it's so good), he's the one who recommended making just a 1 L starter using a fresh vial... he's also the one who helped me design this beer- wheat, oats, and all. I am now both confused and totally open to changing the recipe! Anyone else care to chime in?

I made a brett trois IPA that is very similar: 25% white wheat malt, 5% Munich, 5% golden naked oats. Little Sumpin is a great example of a wheat IPA (~50% wheat) if you're not sure. I think you'll find the brett and hops will take over regardless.

 

[Brulosopher]

Well IPAs are easy with this yeast, especially with all those citrus and tropical fruit hops. Blond ales are much different.

Care to elaborate? I figured since Blonded are lower OG, it'd require more body building malts.