BrewinHooligan
Well-Known Member
It's a wild sacc strain. Sacc can throw a pellicle and this one does, most sacc strains generally do not though.
WLP644 -Brett B Trois
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It's a wild sacc strain. Sacc can throw a pellicle and this one does, most sacc strains generally do not though.
brett will eat things that sacch won't though, correct? there were a few cases of people trying to bottle age with 644 and basically came up with nothing, if I recall. I could be recounting these stories wrong, but almost all signs point to 644 just being an interesting sacch. it would be like calling german or belgian strains "brett like" just because they produce interesting flavors.
BrewinHooligan
Well-Known Member
I would say 3-4 minimum unless since acknowledging it is a sacc strain white labs has increased the cell counts. I have used this in 1 liter starters of 1.03og wort that have only gone 3 days before pitching with really good success
MattHollingsworth
Well-Known Member
Do you have any link to any information saying they increased cell count? I made a starter with this only a few weeks ago from a relatively fresh batch and it had a very low cell count. Visually, it looked to be the usual low cell count that Brett strains get from White Labs and certainly nowhere near the cell count of their vials of "clean" yeast.
I just spoke to someone at Northern Brewer and they told me the cell count was 100B... not sure if I believe it...
Nick M.
Would you be able to tell me the cell count on WLP644?
Craig B.
That is approximately 100 Billion cells
Nick M.
Would you be able to tell me the cell count on WLP644?
Craig B.
That is approximately 100 Billion cells
Coff
Well-Known Member
White Labs has said repeatedly that they consider Trois a "wild sacch strain" and will continue to package it in the same manner as all of their Brett and Bacteria products. Unless something has changed, those vials have the same cell counts as their Brett vials. Which is in the 3-5 billion/vial range.
BrewinHooligan
Well-Known Member
I never said that they increased the cell count. I assumed that they did not. I was saying "unless they increased the cell count"
That is such BS about White Labs not increasing their cell count to reasonable levels for this strain. Judging by the volume of slurry in the vial compared to normal sacch ones, in addition to the general consensus that you want lager-level pitch rates for all-brett beers, I think youd need like 8 vials.
Not worth it IMO, just make a starter well ahead of your brewday and start it up. Would be much cheaper than paying for that many vials
I completely agree. Unfortunately due to my brewing situation (I live in NYC but brew at my parents in NJ due to the limited space) a long starter isn't possible. I brew about once a month and I'm only there for a weekend to brew, so I normally get my starter going Friday night and brew on Sunday, which is normally perfect, but I do not think that is nearly enough time for this yeast. Was hoping to just purchase multiple vials and direct pitch.
LOL, I remember moving into my new place, sitting in the back of my parents car with a yeast vial next to me, shaking it intermittently. I was determined to brew that weekend and wasn't gonna let "real" life stop me.
Does your store carry other brands of yeast? I know that some of the smaller ones like Gigayeast, Omega Yeast, and The Yeast Bay, have a similar cell count for their brett and bacteria as sacch. YB Amalgamation id definitely recommend for an all-brett beer
Lol yea its not ideal, started brewing in my apartment but as i'm sure you are aware the equipment adds up fast and I quickly out grew my tiny studio.
Looks like i might have to go another route, seems like Omega OLY-210 might be the closest substitute. Thanks for all the help.
Could make your yeast starter at your place, only need enough space for a growler on the counter. Then throw it in the fridge Wed or Thurs before you go to your parents. Decant it Friday or Sat before you go to their place and you're good to go.
I have a fresh vial in my hand right now. It has a low cell count. The yeast only makes it up to about half way up the rounded bottom.
Despite the name having the word 'Brett' in it, this is NOT a Brett strain, so you would pitch at normal sacc rates.
You could use a 2 liter soda bottle for a starter.
Several vials will get expensive. If you don't want to make a big Starter, make a small session beer (1.040) and just direct pitch. Probably be under-pitching, but should work, and then you can use the cake for your next beer.
thanks everyone for the tips. I think I may have found a great substitute.
Imperial Yeast A20 Citrus - ~200 Billion cell count
When you want to use Brett, but you don’t. Citrus cranks out orange and lemon aromas along with some tropical fruit. Use this strain at high temps for big ester production. As funky as saccharomyces gets.
Temp: 67-80 // Flocculation: low // Attenuation:74-78%
Imperial Yeast A20 Citrus - ~200 Billion cell count
When you want to use Brett, but you don’t. Citrus cranks out orange and lemon aromas along with some tropical fruit. Use this strain at high temps for big ester production. As funky as saccharomyces gets.
Temp: 67-80 // Flocculation: low // Attenuation:74-78%
MattHollingsworth
Well-Known Member
Ah! Sorry! I misread that.
Yeah, they definitely did NOT increase cell count, which is pretty much bull****. Most people I know use this strain for 100% of the fermentation and have to do multi step starters over a couple of weeks. They're ripping us off. Really lovely yeast, but this is not Brett and should be sold to us in the same quantity as other non Brett strains.
MattHollingsworth
Well-Known Member
Actually, with regards to Yeast Bay, that is not accurate. They have a small cell count as well, ~2 billion cells per vial for vials that contain only Brett.
http://www.theyeastbay.com/policies-and-product-information/
BrewinHooligan
Well-Known Member
Well I know I'm only one person but my experience using this yeast is that I get excellent results with an IPA with a 1.06og using a single stage starter that is only 1 liter with 1.03og starter wort. Make the starter Wednesday and pitch Saturday or Sunday and have complete fermentation in about one week at room temp and the finished beer tastes great. I do let it sit 2 weeks, then dry hop for one week, then package. Maybe stressing it the way I do causes the great fruity/funky flavors I get with this yeast.
Good choice, IMO. Their "A20 Citrus" is the same as WLP644 Trois, and the pitch rate is much higher.
Bottling question with WLP644. I made a saison with this and keep in primary for 8 months. Bottled and added a carbonation drop. After three weeks, I cracked one bottle open and it had minimal carbonation. Wait longer or should I open bottles and add some yeast?
There's no reason to keep a Trois beer in primary for 8 months. After 1-2 months max it is done because it's Saccharomyces. I would try re-yeasting.
I'd leave them alone since they are already bottled.
I would have re-yeasted at bottling, because that is what I do with a beer that has been standing for 6 months. But there is yeast present and they will eventually carb; just may take a few months.
Thanks! I always thought I've heard that yeast is present for up to a year but was sort of freaking out. I also bottled another 2 cases with wlp645 and one with 653 and they were fine. That was my cause for concern
Thanks! I always thought I've heard that yeast is present for up to a year but was sort of freaking out. I also bottled another case with wlp645 and one with 653 and they were fine. That was my cause for concern
hanks! I always thought I've heard that yeast is present for up to a year but was sort of freaking out. I also bottled another case with wlp645 and one with 653 and they were fine. That was my cause for concern
So my LHBS sold me WLP644 because I wanted to do a 100% brett. Well, I now see that won't be the case but the discussion around this yeast seems it's still an interesting yeast. I have a special recipe I have been wanting to do and would like some feed back about using this yeast. It's an Old World IPA btw. I am looking for high attenuation and some wildness. Thoughts?
5 gallon batch
70% efficiency
15lbs Maris (1.070)
200 IBU's from English hops [BOADICEA, EKG, Fuggles, Challenger maybe or Northdown(90min boil)]
Dry hop
Mash 148 for 85%++ attenuation
Primary 2-4 weeks
Secondary for ?? months
5 gallon batch
70% efficiency
15lbs Maris (1.070)
200 IBU's from English hops [BOADICEA, EKG, Fuggles, Challenger maybe or Northdown(90min boil)]
Dry hop
Mash 148 for 85%++ attenuation
Primary 2-4 weeks
Secondary for ?? months
BrewinHooligan
Well-Known Member
Secondary isn't necessary, it doesn't change over time like Brett does. It produces mostly fruity flavors along with some "funk". I wouldn't suggest using English hops personally. I would suggest hops that are more fruity than earthy but that's just me. I will say that with this yeast the hops don't seem to fade as fast as with normal sacc strains.
MattHollingsworth
Well-Known Member
What BrewinHooligan wrote. I would also argue that it's not necessary to mash low to get high attenuation. This yeast will give high attenuation no matter the mash temp.
random thoughts, YMMV:
- why 200 IBUs? you're not going to get that much anyways, so you're just wasting hops. are you planning on putting them all at the start of the boil, or will you add any late hops?
- MattHollingsworth stated that you'll get high attenuation at any mash temp, so i'll defer to him, but my experience was that 644's attenuation wasn't all that great. it wasn't horrible, but i would like liked 4-5 points less. if there's no harm in mashing low, i would stick with that plan. again, YMMV.
- a long secondary not needed with 644. give it 3-5 weeks in primary (until gravity is stable) and then package.
I am modeling the recipe from this source - http://sjworthogs.org/documents/Old British Beers.pdf.
So this is more of an curious experiment. I after reading up on this yeast strain I am beginning to wonder if this yeast may have been involved in old IPA's. This is a long term project and don't expect good results for MANY months. From what I have read the IPA turns out a bit cloying buy balanced by the bitterness and no doubt it will be bitter. I have also read that high hop rates add body to beer or atleast mouth feel which many offer an interesting counter to the high attenuation rate. Hops Direct has a very good deal on leaf BOADICEA so using large amounts won't be a great waste per se. I may yet scale the recipe for less finish volume to save on hops and decrease boil time. Right now my system will be maxed out and to get decent efficiency I will need to sparge a large volume (I think) so the recipe calls for a 5 hour boil. This is not something I have or will rush into. But this yeast strain looks very interesting.
This is also partly responsible for the inspiration - https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=567460 (which ended up as a happy accident) as is Terry Foster's book on "Pale Ale" and "Farmhouse Ales" by Phil Markowski.
So this is more of an curious experiment. I after reading up on this yeast strain I am beginning to wonder if this yeast may have been involved in old IPA's. This is a long term project and don't expect good results for MANY months. From what I have read the IPA turns out a bit cloying buy balanced by the bitterness and no doubt it will be bitter. I have also read that high hop rates add body to beer or atleast mouth feel which many offer an interesting counter to the high attenuation rate. Hops Direct has a very good deal on leaf BOADICEA so using large amounts won't be a great waste per se. I may yet scale the recipe for less finish volume to save on hops and decrease boil time. Right now my system will be maxed out and to get decent efficiency I will need to sparge a large volume (I think) so the recipe calls for a 5 hour boil. This is not something I have or will rush into. But this yeast strain looks very interesting.
This is also partly responsible for the inspiration - https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=567460 (which ended up as a happy accident) as is Terry Foster's book on "Pale Ale" and "Farmhouse Ales" by Phil Markowski.
MattHollingsworth
Well-Known Member
Data points on attenuation with Brett Trois WLP644 from batches I've made:
1. Mashed at 153. Attenuation 89%.
2. Mashed at 152. Attenuation 90%.
3. Mashed at 153. Attenuation 85%.
4. Mashed at 153. Attenuation 81%.
5. Mashed at 154. Attenuation 84%.
6. Mashed at 153. Attenuation 86%.
7. Mashed at 155. Attenuation 83%.
I had thought that I'd mashed even higher with this strain, but I haven't. As you can see, they're all in the middle temps for mashing, but nothing lower than 81% for me. No difference in the way the starter was treated, always 3 steps up to 2 liters total over two weeks. All pitched in the mid to upper 60s and let rise to the upper 60s or very low 70s.
I haven't had one of these that I would say tasted too sweet or even close to too sweet.
I'd be curious to hear about how anyone has had this under attenuate and would be curious to see any data points.
1. Mashed at 153. Attenuation 89%.
2. Mashed at 152. Attenuation 90%.
3. Mashed at 153. Attenuation 85%.
4. Mashed at 153. Attenuation 81%.
5. Mashed at 154. Attenuation 84%.
6. Mashed at 153. Attenuation 86%.
7. Mashed at 155. Attenuation 83%.
I had thought that I'd mashed even higher with this strain, but I haven't. As you can see, they're all in the middle temps for mashing, but nothing lower than 81% for me. No difference in the way the starter was treated, always 3 steps up to 2 liters total over two weeks. All pitched in the mid to upper 60s and let rise to the upper 60s or very low 70s.
I haven't had one of these that I would say tasted too sweet or even close to too sweet.
I'd be curious to hear about how anyone has had this under attenuate and would be curious to see any data points.
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My latest batch with it I mashed at 152°F and had 91% attenuation. Pretty much in line with your data.
frettfreak
Well-Known Member
ok guys, i messed up i think but looking for some opinions.
I actually just made a 1.062 pale with some citra, calypso, and orange zest. It was a last minute recipe for a competition in my brew club that i found out about WAY too late. i had bought a can of this yeast (imperial organics version that has 200b cells in the can called citrus) and decided to use it.
i usually make starters but had been reading about LOT of people using the Imperial organic's cans without starters with GREAT results so I thought i would give it a try. After finding out that IO's yeast was the WLP644 strain, i started do more looking around (info on "citrus" from IO was scarce cause they are a newer yeast provider) and think i might have really messed up.
Its only bee 12 hours since pitch, but there really is nothing going on yet. temp at 69
Looking for suggestions, morebeer is only a 45 minute drive and i can go get another can, make a starter and pitch that in a day or 2 or just wait. The only reason i am not on the just wait fence is cause i am trying to get this kegged and ready to drink in a month. If this was a normal sac yeast strain i know i could just wait another 12 hours and it would probably be rocking but i have never used this strain and know it is more like a brett than traditional sac strain.
suggestions??
EDIT:
Ok, so i am seeing some bubbles starting to form. I MAY just wait it out but was hoping for a quick turn around on this one. I did ramp the temp up to 71 to get things kicked off maybe a little faster as well
EDIT2: Ok, its actually got a nice layer of foam on the top. gonna let this run out and see how it does.
I actually just made a 1.062 pale with some citra, calypso, and orange zest. It was a last minute recipe for a competition in my brew club that i found out about WAY too late. i had bought a can of this yeast (imperial organics version that has 200b cells in the can called citrus) and decided to use it.
i usually make starters but had been reading about LOT of people using the Imperial organic's cans without starters with GREAT results so I thought i would give it a try. After finding out that IO's yeast was the WLP644 strain, i started do more looking around (info on "citrus" from IO was scarce cause they are a newer yeast provider) and think i might have really messed up.
Its only bee 12 hours since pitch, but there really is nothing going on yet. temp at 69
Looking for suggestions, morebeer is only a 45 minute drive and i can go get another can, make a starter and pitch that in a day or 2 or just wait. The only reason i am not on the just wait fence is cause i am trying to get this kegged and ready to drink in a month. If this was a normal sac yeast strain i know i could just wait another 12 hours and it would probably be rocking but i have never used this strain and know it is more like a brett than traditional sac strain.
suggestions??
EDIT:
Ok, so i am seeing some bubbles starting to form. I MAY just wait it out but was hoping for a quick turn around on this one. I did ramp the temp up to 71 to get things kicked off maybe a little faster as well
EDIT2: Ok, its actually got a nice layer of foam on the top. gonna let this run out and see how it does.
505-Brewer
Well-Known Member
ok guys, i messed up i think but looking for some opinions.
I actually just made a 1.062 pale with some citra, calypso, and orange zest. It was a last minute recipe for a competition in my brew club that i found out about WAY too late. i had bought a can of this yeast (imperial organics version that has 200b cells in the can called citrus) and decided to use it.
i usually make starters but had been reading about LOT of people using the Imperial organic's cans without starters with GREAT results so I thought i would give it a try. After finding out that IO's yeast was the WLP644 strain, i started do more looking around (info on "citrus" from IO was scarce cause they are a newer yeast provider) and think i might have really messed up.
Its only bee 12 hours since pitch, but there really is nothing going on yet. temp at 69
Looking for suggestions, morebeer is only a 45 minute drive and i can go get another can, make a starter and pitch that in a day or 2 or just wait. The only reason i am not on the just wait fence is cause i am trying to get this kegged and ready to drink in a month. If this was a normal sac yeast strain i know i could just wait another 12 hours and it would probably be rocking but i have never used this strain and know it is more like a brett than traditional sac strain.
suggestions??
EDIT:
Ok, so i am seeing some bubbles starting to form. I MAY just wait it out but was hoping for a quick turn around on this one. I did ramp the temp up to 71 to get things kicked off maybe a little faster as well
EDIT2: Ok, its actually got a nice layer of foam on the top. gonna let this run out and see how it does.
Is it a wlp644 equivalent in a pitch-able amount? That would be nice. Whats the cell count?
Where did you get the information that it is the same as WLP644?
The reason it took a long time to start is because you pitched a small amount. 24 hours is OK.
if anything, underpitching is what you would want to do with this yeast
frettfreak
Well-Known Member
Kinda. Its supposedly 200b minimum per can. AND... you pitch it cold! Pretty awesome actually. I like them so far. Only complaint is the opening can on the lid breaks off and needs a better design, but its workable.
Morebeer's site gives it as the equivalent. Everything is cruising now. Nice foam and yeast chugging away.
Really? Thats interesting. Why would you want to under pitch with this particular strain?
It can produce some interesting fruit fruit flavors when stressed
frettfreak
Well-Known Member
Stressed or not i just wanted to say that this beer came out AMAZING. I will be using this yeast a LOT more. love it.
