I have a potential issue. I fermented 4 gallons of pale ale at 62 degrees using white labs 002. I made a starter and everything seemed fine. It started at 1.051 and stopped at 1.021 after I racked to secondary. That's only about 60 percent attenuation. I was hoping it would go down to about 1.012 or so. Should I leave it be or repitch with some us-05 to try to bring the gravity down some more? Is lack of oxygen an issue for repitching? My experience with the 05 is that I get a lot of what I believe to be acetaldehyde. And it takes forever to mellow out. I don't get that with the British ale yeasts however. I would love some advice on this issue. Thanks.
wlp002
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Couple questions...how long has the beer been fermenting? Do you have a lot of crystal malt in there?
If it's been less than two weeks fermenting, try to warm it up to 68-70 and swirl the carboy to rouse the yeast. 002 optimal temps are 65-68F so where you fermented cool, that could be part of the problem.
If you have a lot of crystal malts, there could be unfermentable sugars remaining.
If you did not splash the wort into the carboy, shake it for 15 minutes, or add pure O2, then yes lack of oxygen combined with the colder temps could have combined to cause the issue. Liquid yeast needs oxygen to feed on to help increase yeast growth.
Try warming the beer up and let it go for a week at warmer temps, if still no change you could try pitching maybe 1/4 a pack of dry yeast. Don't think you would have to worry about acetaldehyde since the dry yeast would only be finishing the beer off as most of fermentation has already happened.
If it's been less than two weeks fermenting, try to warm it up to 68-70 and swirl the carboy to rouse the yeast. 002 optimal temps are 65-68F so where you fermented cool, that could be part of the problem.
If you have a lot of crystal malts, there could be unfermentable sugars remaining.
If you did not splash the wort into the carboy, shake it for 15 minutes, or add pure O2, then yes lack of oxygen combined with the colder temps could have combined to cause the issue. Liquid yeast needs oxygen to feed on to help increase yeast growth.
Try warming the beer up and let it go for a week at warmer temps, if still no change you could try pitching maybe 1/4 a pack of dry yeast. Don't think you would have to worry about acetaldehyde since the dry yeast would only be finishing the beer off as most of fermentation has already happened.
I only got 64% attenuation with this yeast, so I'm not surprised. And that was mashed at 148 F without much crystal malt.
Might be best to make a small 2-3 quart starter with the US-05 and pitch it in at high krauesen. Since the beer is almost at target gravity already, the US-05 will not contribute much flavor if any, but it will take your final gravity down to about 1.010-1.012, I can just about guarantee you that.
Might be best to make a small 2-3 quart starter with the US-05 and pitch it in at high krauesen. Since the beer is almost at target gravity already, the US-05 will not contribute much flavor if any, but it will take your final gravity down to about 1.010-1.012, I can just about guarantee you that.
Thanks for the info! By the way, I fermented lower because that was the temperature of my basement and I thought the yeast action would bring it up into close enough range. I also racked it because I assumed it was done. Oops. I checked the gravity after the fact and had an "oh crap" moment. Thanks again.
According to White Labs site 63% to 70% attenuation is what can be expected with WLP002. This is common with English Ale yeast. 62F is a little cold for English Ale and White Labs indicates that ideal is 65F to 68F. I use this yeast a lot because I love English Ales and normally start at 65F and move it up to 68F over the first week. Week 2 I move it 70F and let is sit 48 hours then slowly move it back to 65F over the next 10 to 12 days. Fermenting this yeast warmer will give you good stone fruit flavors and if you use Crystal 60 in the mash you can get raisin and prune as well. Matched with some nice English hops like EKG it makes a classic English ale.
yummy ---
yummy ---
Maybe I'll give that a shot next time. I'm still trying to find a groove. I agree with you on those English ales. So far I haven't gotten any green apple from either the 002 or 005 and I want to keep it that way. I just want to make sure I am using them properly. Thanks
Once WLP002/ESB1968 begins to slow, you've got to step up the temp close to 70*F or it drops out too soon (and fast). Last time I used ESB1968, I saw 73% attenuation. Once it drops out, it'll form into a very firm, rubbery yeast cake which is hard to rouse by swirling. The only way to work it up is with warming the batch then working it up off the bottom with a sanitized spoon.
Not sure why you pulled this off the yeast and into a secondary, but once you do that you're pretty well stuck unless you wish to go to the extra effort of making a starter and tossing it at high krausen.
+1
75%+ attenuation is easy with 002/1968 if you let it warm up before it flocs.
People report weird peach notes for US-05 when fermented in low 60's, could that be what your tasting?
BPO
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Just want to make sure. How did you measure you FG. If you use a refractometer you need to adjust with a calculator. If you used a hydrometer everything above is valid.
ESBrewer
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Would like to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread. Great info about working with WLP002/Wyeast 1968. I'm about to brew a Fuller's ESB -like all-grain beer as my first homebrew using this yeast. Been reading a lot about the process and building some very basic equipment (I have a lot of experience of yeast cultures but not about brewing). Based on suggestions here and on White Labs pages I think I'll follow these guidelines with the yeast (aiming from OG 1.055-56 to FG 1.014-5 which corresponds to about 73+% attenuation):
-make the wort fermentable enough by not mashing at too high a temperature (around 150-152 F for maybe full 90min as Graham Wheeler suggests in Brew your own British real ale)
-initially aerate the worth as well as it is possible (using just air and agitation that is available..)
-make a starter with enough cells and bring it to fermentation temp well before pitching
-start fermentation at 66+ F
-ramp up to around 70F (I have just a waterbath with pump and some self-made and pretty long-lasting cold elements to cool down the carboy a bit below the RT of my apartment(which is around 70F) -> there's going to be a some fluctuation in temp but based on some experiments I'm pretty sure I'm able to keep it in 2F or so)
-if the yeast starts to flocculate before the expected final gravity has been reached, I'll try to swirl the vessel to rouse it back to solution, if this doesn't work I'll use a sanitized spoon to stir and raise the temp slightly
-after final OG is reached I'll give the beer a diacetyl rest at RT
+ several days of conditioning on the lees at RT before bottling
How does it sound to you? Any further suggestions?
-make the wort fermentable enough by not mashing at too high a temperature (around 150-152 F for maybe full 90min as Graham Wheeler suggests in Brew your own British real ale)
-initially aerate the worth as well as it is possible (using just air and agitation that is available..)
-make a starter with enough cells and bring it to fermentation temp well before pitching
-start fermentation at 66+ F
-ramp up to around 70F (I have just a waterbath with pump and some self-made and pretty long-lasting cold elements to cool down the carboy a bit below the RT of my apartment(which is around 70F) -> there's going to be a some fluctuation in temp but based on some experiments I'm pretty sure I'm able to keep it in 2F or so)
-if the yeast starts to flocculate before the expected final gravity has been reached, I'll try to swirl the vessel to rouse it back to solution, if this doesn't work I'll use a sanitized spoon to stir and raise the temp slightly
-after final OG is reached I'll give the beer a diacetyl rest at RT
+ several days of conditioning on the lees at RT before bottling
How does it sound to you? Any further suggestions?
@ESBrewer, sorry for the delayed response...
That sounds like a pretty good plan, however your expectation of 73-75% attenuation is not very reasonable with this yeast, even with swirling the yeast cake, so I would consider one of the following options instead:
1) Mash overnight (for like 6-10 hours), and even then I'm not positive it will work. Or...
2) Use WLP007/1098/S-04 instead for a guaranteed fix to the recipe. Yes, the dried yeast S-04 is supposedly the same as the other two liquid yeasts and is easier to use.
Otherwise, with a 90-minute mash with WLP002/1968, I'd expect your final gravity to be no less than 1.019.
So it's your call -- do you really need a drier beer, or can you stand a finishing gravity of 1.019-1.020?
Enjoy.
That sounds like a pretty good plan, however your expectation of 73-75% attenuation is not very reasonable with this yeast, even with swirling the yeast cake, so I would consider one of the following options instead:
1) Mash overnight (for like 6-10 hours), and even then I'm not positive it will work. Or...
2) Use WLP007/1098/S-04 instead for a guaranteed fix to the recipe. Yes, the dried yeast S-04 is supposedly the same as the other two liquid yeasts and is easier to use.
Otherwise, with a 90-minute mash with WLP002/1968, I'd expect your final gravity to be no less than 1.019.
So it's your call -- do you really need a drier beer, or can you stand a finishing gravity of 1.019-1.020?
Enjoy.
ESBrewer
Well-Known Member
Thank you dmtaylor. I'll try how low I can get and how it tastes. I have some wlp005 in the fridge. I'll make a second batch with this yeast and compare the results, fg and taste.
couchsending
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Fullers pitches their ESB at 17 million/ml. Which I believe translates to over 1.2 mil/ml/*plato??? (Not great at math) 002 does best at high pitch rates from everything I’ve read. It’s very similar to the yeast Firestone Walker uses and Matt Bryndlson recommends pitch at 17 and raise to 19/20C which is not exactly what Fullers does but Fullers ferment profile might be hard to execute correctly and not get piles of Diacetyl 64/68/64? Anyone done it successfully?
ESBrewer
Well-Known Member
Well, having read all those stories of sweet fg 1.020 ESB:s obtained with this yeast I tried to make a fermentable wort. In addition, the mash temp settled a bit low. 1.5h mash. Used a fresh starter and stirred with paddle twice (days 3 and 4 I think). Then swirled the carboy a bit (d5/6). Then let stand still for a week. As a result the beer attenuated from 1.054 to 1.012 (76.9%). I bottled today (day 14). The color is spot on and the product will be extremely clear, I think. Compared both color and taste (at 20C) side by side with Fuller's. The taste is pretty damn close, too. Should probably be 2-3 points higher final gravity, though. Primed to 1.8 volumes CO2, let's see how it develops in the bottles.
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ESBrewer
Well-Known Member
Sipping some more Fuller's and I think it has more esters. So should have fermented with less cooling?
Thanks for sharing your experience @ESBrewer.
My guess is you overpitched. How many gallons was this batch? How many packs of yeast? How big was your starter? I would have used the slurry from about 2-3 quarts of yeast starter assuming a standard 5-gallon batch size. If you used mrmalty.com's recommendations, it would have been like 1.5 gallons or something -- way too much IMO. Mrmalty is crazy. I use that website but cut all his recommendations in half. YMMV.
Cheers.
My guess is you overpitched. How many gallons was this batch? How many packs of yeast? How big was your starter? I would have used the slurry from about 2-3 quarts of yeast starter assuming a standard 5-gallon batch size. If you used mrmalty.com's recommendations, it would have been like 1.5 gallons or something -- way too much IMO. Mrmalty is crazy. I use that website but cut all his recommendations in half. YMMV.
Cheers.
ESBrewer
Well-Known Member
In the fermenter my volume is only 1.1 gal. Starter was about 275ml and I was about to use 1/4 of the pack (fresh, only 3 weeks from the package date), but as I didn't measure too exactly 1/3 of the pack may have ended there. Starter gravity about 1.040 and when yeast flocculated (at RT) I pour most of the medium away. You're right that it is possible to pitch less and you would expect to get more pronounced estery character then. Pitched at 19C and thereafter I only measured the waterbath where the 5 liter glass carboy was submerged. During the active stage water temp was 19-20C (varying a bit inside this range) then in water bath towards 21C (RT) and finally (most of the time) without water at RT (21C). There was a lot of visible activity during 2-3 first days, then it slowed and it is possible that it was over in 3-4 days but I don't know as I didn't want to measure that early (tried to avoid the substantial loss with my current hydrometer and tried not to avoid contact with oxygen post fermentation). At this point, I'm pretty happy with the outcome as it was my first beer and so haven't got a chance to optimize anything through experience. During the weekend I'm going to bottle another version fermented with wlp005. It had a higher and more stable mash temperature between 66 and 67C in an insulated box located inside a warm oven and OG was 1.056. With the wlp002 batch I tried to start mash at 65.5C but I think it wasn't quite settled as soon it was 64+C only and at 90 mins it had dropped below 63C that is low (this was in the insulated box only but not inside the warm oven).
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I appreciate the detail in your response. Now I can get a great feel for what's going on...
It's so easy to overpitch in small batch brewing like this. Mrmalty.com says you needed 0.5 pack without any starter, as the yeast was so fresh. You used less than 0.5 pack but you did do a starter. So, most likely an overpitch. In theory, this should lead to a cleaner less estery beer as far as I know. But, I could be wrong here too.
Mashing at the average of about 63.5C is very low indeed and explains the high attenuation. Also I would not have mashed for 90 minutes but only around 45-60 minutes.
It's so easy to overpitch in small batch brewing like this. Mrmalty.com says you needed 0.5 pack without any starter, as the yeast was so fresh. You used less than 0.5 pack but you did do a starter. So, most likely an overpitch. In theory, this should lead to a cleaner less estery beer as far as I know. But, I could be wrong here too.
Mashing at the average of about 63.5C is very low indeed and explains the high attenuation. Also I would not have mashed for 90 minutes but only around 45-60 minutes.
ESBrewer
Well-Known Member
Today bottled the batch fermented with wlp005 (Ringwood) at day 13 fg 1.016, apparent attenuation 70.x from OG1.056. I think it all comes down to the mash temp here as starters and grains bills were similar. Batch with Ringwood seems to have a more similar front-end to Fuller's although it's fermented with a 'wrong' strain. Unfortunately, this batch has probably less hoppiness in the finish. The optimum brew is probably somewhere in between these two. Need to wait and see after carbonation and some time in the bottle. Both will probably taste wonderful with some Finnish Christmas courses.
