WLP #830 yeast starter?

[Gabe]

I am brewing a german lager and want to pitch a good healthy starter. I was told by my LHBS that I should use 2 vials, as lagers will get off to a better fermenting start. Anyone heard this be 4. Or is just one vial enough? Thanks for any info

 

[homebrewer_99]

I have, it's called selling a sucker more than he needs.

Just make a good starter and 1 will be enough.

Lagers are marathon brews...slower and take more time.

Ales are sprinters and drinkable in weeks.

 

[bigears]

I've often heard this for dry yeast. In fact Saflager's documentation states to 'increase dosage for pitching under 12C'.

http://www.fermentis.com/FO/EN/pdf/SaflagerS-23.pdf

EDIT: (from their web site)

"To achieve the correct pitching rate use one sachet per 20 litres of wort for ales. Use one sachet for lager when fermenting at room temperature and two sachets for lager when fermenting cold e.g. 12C (due to the lower temperature and slower growth of lager strains)."

Given that dry yeast is so cheap it's no big deal to do this. Dunno if I'd pitch two vials of liquid yeast though!

 

[mysterio]

Just make a nice big starter with one vial of liquid yeast. I don't think those vials have a good shelf life so he's trying to rip you off.

 

[Dude]

Yeah, rip off. I probably would take my business elsewhere even.

 

[Mykel Obvious]

You SHOULD pitch more in a lager... but you should grow it yourself!!! 2 vials would still be under pitching... would need more like 5-6 vials and that is $$$$

Here's what I found on pitching rates for ales and lager:

"The recommended optimal pitching rates are 6-10 million cells/ml for ales and 10-15 million cells/ml for lagers. (George Fix recommends 10 million cells/ml for ales, 15 million cells/ml for lagers.) Higher gravity worts require even higher pitching rates. "
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From: http://www.maltosefalcons.com/tech/MB_Raines_Guide_to_Yeast_Culturing.php

and here's a pitching rate calculator, so you can tailor your starter to what you are brewing:

http://www.mrmalty.com/pitching.php

So grow ya up a big one and let'er rip!!!

mikey

 

[Gabe]

How long would it take for 1 vial to brew up enough cells to pitch in a 5 gal brew?

 

[Dude]

How long would it take for 1 vial to brew up enough cells to pitch in a 5 gal brew?

A 24 hour starter would be fine--however a 48 hour stepped up would be even better. Stepping up just means you decant off the old wort after 24 hours, and then put in another pint of fresh wort in with the yeast (cooled of course) and wait another 24 hours. You'll significantly increase the cell count doing this.

 

[Baron von BeeGee]

A 24 hour starter would be fine--however a 48 hour stepped up would be even better. Stepping up just means you decant off the old wort after 24 hours, and then put in another pint of fresh wort in with the yeast (cooled of course) and wait another 24 hours. You'll significantly increase the cell count doing this.

Will you? I thought if you pitched the same volume/same gravity that there would be the proper # of yeast cells and they would just get to work without entering a growth phase. My assumption was that to 'step up' you would have to pitch a greater volume of wort than you had previously.

 

[Dude]

Will you? I thought if you pitched the same volume/same gravity that there would be the proper # of yeast cells and they would just get to work without entering a growth phase. My assumption was that to 'step up' you would have to pitch a greater volume of wort than you had previously.

I've seen it recommended many ways.

I am going by what Chris White (White Labs) says regarding a starter. The first 24 hours is merely waking the yeast up (with some cell growth), the step-up is (a specific amount was not implied) then the primary phase for the yeast cells to grow. I've had success recently doing it this way.

 

[Kaiser]

Will you? I thought if you pitched the same volume/same gravity that there would be the proper # of yeast cells and they would just get to work without entering a growth phase. My assumption was that to 'step up' you would have to pitch a greater volume of wort than you had previously.

This is indeed something I have been thinking about too. The literature usually states, that the yeast will grow until a certain population density of yeast cells is reached. But I'm not sure what is actually limiting this growth. Most likely it is the availablility of oxygen.

If you continuously aerate a starter (and ever stir it) you can grow much more yeast than you would with a normal fermentation like starter. When the yeast is kept in is aerobe phase it can get much more energy from the sugars and use this enegy (and the available oxygen) for growing.

Kai

 

[Baron von BeeGee]

I agree with that...stirplates apparently yielding the greatest cellcount for a given volume of starter wort. But all things being equal, I'm wondering if repeatedly pitching the same volume of equally aerated wort will result in additional growth phases. It beats me...just askin'. I don't usually step up, but then I'm doing ales with 2L starters so it doesn't seem necessary.

 

[Dude]

Why wouldn't the yeast cells grow? After the step-up the cells are already awake and healthy. I don't think it matters on what the volume or gravity of the step-up is, the cells will continue to flourish provided they have food.

 

[Baron von BeeGee]

Why wouldn't the yeast cells grow? After the step-up the cells are already awake and healthy. I don't think it matters on what the volume or gravity of the step-up is, the cells will continue to flourish provided they have food.

My (admittedly limited) understanding is that for a given volume/gravity/aeration/etc. that the yeast will enter a growth phase to some optimum level of cellcount and then start munching. Therefore, if you pitched the same wort volume/gravity/aeration/etc. again the yeast would already be at the proper cellcount and would just commence to munching without having to go through a growth phase, i.e., zero lag. Basically the same idea as dumping a batch on the cake from a previous, assuming identical batches. Usually when I see "step up" mentioned in conjunction with growing yeast it implies stepping up to a larger volume which would cause the yeast to enter a growth phase to deal with the increased amount of sugars present.

But I really don't know the science well enough to say. I could research some, but I think I'll just go smoke a cigar and try some GRABASS brews.

 

[Janx]

If you continuously aerate a starter (and ever stir it) you can grow much more yeast than you would with a normal fermentation like starter. When the yeast is kept in is aerobe phase it can get much more energy from the sugars and use this enegy (and the available oxygen) for growing.

And in the aerobic phase they don't generate alcohol either. I remember reading about a wild idea years ago to homebrew alcohol-free beer by bubbling oxygen through it throughout the fermentation. I don't recall the details, but it was deemed impractical by the more scientific minds in the discussion.

Interesting and creative idea though.

Cheers

 

[Kaiser]

Fermentation stats as soon as all free Oxygen has been cosumed. The growth should be expected to stop when the yeast lacks the necessary building blocks for new cells. One of these building blocks are lipids which are produced in the presence of oxygen. This means the growth will eventually come to an end once oxygen is gone.

This is my understanding of the limitation of growth during the fermentation. When making a starter, yeast should continue to grow if you keep feeding it O2 and sugar. This can be done by decanting the liquid and adding fresh and areated wort.

Kai

 

[Mykel Obvious]

Will you? I thought if you pitched the same volume/same gravity that there would be the proper # of yeast cells and they would just get to work without entering a growth phase. My assumption was that to 'step up' you would have to pitch a greater volume of wort than you had previously.

I agree with the Baron... from what I've read, you have to increase the amount of wort to "step-up" a starter... for example, one 50 ml vial stepped up to 500 ml for 24-48 hours, then stepped up again to 2000 ml for another 24-48 before pitching... (These are my steps when using a stirrer)

Decanting and replacing the wort with the same volume will not increase the available space for yeast to grow into, so once maximum density is reached for a given volume, all you are doing is fermenting the new wort... I guess you would get "some" growth if you are not using a magnetic stirrer, because you wouldn't be at true maximum density, and replacing the wort would add oxygen and sugar and re-suspend the yeast... but as I use a stirrer, the only way I can increase the number of yeast cells is to increase the wort volume...

The following table lists the starter size necessary to reach "optimum" cell count for each way of preparing a starter... (from Maltose Falcons article I posted above)... the only reason you would be using larger volumes is if you had stepped up the starter to increase the total cell count:

Table 5. Approximate Starter volumes to achieve 10 million cells/ml.
_______________________Concentration_______Starter Volume
Starter treatment ________(millions/ml) ________for 5 gallons

traditional:......................... 20........................ 10 quarts
shaken:............................. 60 ........................3.3 quarts
intermittent aeration:........... 92 ........................2.2 quarts
continuous stirring: .............180-360................. 0.75 quarts




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So making a starter by pitching one vial of yeast in normally aerated wort and then waiting (no shaking or extra aeration involved) you would need 2.5 gallons to get the proper number of cells to pitch in a 5 gallon batch!!! (and this should be done in 3-5 steps to optimize growth patterns of the yeast) That's why pitching onto a yeast cake works so well, you are very close to optimum fermentation density (less what yeast didn't flocculate out/ got transfered to secondary etc.)

anyway, that's my $0.02 worth of it


mikey

 

[Gabe]

Thanks guys for all the scientific info that I didn't understand, Im wondering if I should Brew a Pils befor attacking this Lager. See (Lager es Bueno)on this forum page for my recipe. If I did that and I could pitch this Lager wort onto the pils Yeast Cake would their be enough yeast cells for a fast ,proper Lager ferm? Cheers ahead of time

 

[Baron von BeeGee]

A pilsner is a type of lager, so either way you'll have to make a starter to get one going, and then you can use your yeast cake for subsequent lagers.

 

[rcbrew]

This discussion seems to confirm what my LHBS said yesterday, to step up a lager yeast starter. My question is....is making a lager yeast starter different than an ale yeast starter? How about fermentation temperatures for a lager yeast? I have not done a starter up to this point, but it seems to me to be the thing to do from now on.

 

[Brewing Clamper]

If I'm not quite ready to pitch a new batch, how long can I save the yeast cake for? What would be the best way to prolong it's life?

Oh, BTW on a total tangent, when I made my first batch ever, I used the yeast cake to try to make a bread. I figured "hey, it's yeast it should make bread rise". Well, it was disgusting.... so don't do it....

 

[Gabe]

I now realize that Pils are in the same fam as Lagers so i digress------- The only way to pitch a Lager onto a yeast cake is to first brew a pils, or lager with a starter!?. If I am wrong about this and there is an easier way ie: type of other brew that I can do with a #830, then someone please let me know. I plan on brewing this Lager this weekend 5-13. I also have changed up the recipe as my LHBS SUCKS!. Thanks again

 

[Brewing Clamper]

Well, would it work if you make an ale with lager yeast (steam beer?) then pitch a lager to that yeast cake?

 

[Gabe]

That idea is one to ponder, yet I have never heard of this befor. I did a lager with a steam type yeast, but I have never done an ale brew with a lager yeast. This should bring up the fact of the ale being fermented at lager temps(WLP#830) for yeast survival? and what ale the vienna type lager closely resembles as to not f--k up the flavor of the final Lager brew. I need to post another thread in the recipe forum ! until then I look forward to checking this possibility out for sure, and will come back to this thread for more conversation. CHEERS

 

[Baron von BeeGee]

Just make a 1g starter and pitch the slurry into your lager, after that you've got a yeast cake.