Wiring question - RIMS - Pump - etc for big time beginner.

[BryBrew]

Okay, so I'm not an electrician and really not familiar with different types of relays, switches, etc. I can wire most stuff at my house but the current problem I have ran into building my simple RIMS system has me at a loss so I'm searching for some guidance. I'll attach a photo of a really dumbed down schematics version of what I currently have going. I'm basically trying to wire an outlet, a johnson controller thermostat and a pump. I would like to be able to turn the pump on and off independently, controlled by its own switch. I also want to have constant power to the Johnson controller so it is always monitoring temp. I am thinking of having a switch between the controller and the heating element so I can just leave it off when only running the pump. My problem is finding a way to switch off the heating element if the pump is turned off. Some kind of feedback or something. Its obviously not that hard to just switch the heat off when you switch the pump off but after a beer or two I might miss that. I was also planning on using one of those red switch that lights up so I dont miss it quite as easily.

So, is there anyway to create some kind of trip or fault or feedback (all some electrical terms I have heard, no doubt using them in wrong context) that will kill the power to the heater if the pump is turned off while allowing power to always be on to the Johnson controller?

Thanks a ton!

B

 

[blizz81]

From my understanding of RIMS, I don't think a Johnson controller is going to cut it re: cycling your element / this is why people use PIDs. I think my Auber PID was something like $40.


For wiring reference, here's my very basic single-vessel RIMS control box with a switch for main power, pump, and heater:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-...AD-A/VEJtgprBNRw/w1167-h875-no/IMAGE_711.jpeg

 

[BryBrew]

So with that you can run your pump independently and your heater wont run unless the pump is running?

 

[blizz81]

Sorry, I should have specified that the heater and pump are switched independently. The heater runs 1) if the main switch is on, 2) if the heater switch is on and 3) if the PID is cycling it.

If you wanted to take mine and make the "Pump" switch a "Heater and Pump" switch, you would just grab the wire out of the SSR and run that to the pump switch instead of my heater switch. I wired it this way because there's times where I want to run the pump / circulate water without energizing the heater (most obviously being cleaning) and I don't want to care what the PID is reading. It can try to cycle the heater, but with the heater switch off, it won't fire. The heater could fire without the pump running if the switch was on and the PID was asking for it, but even after a few beers I've yet to run into that situation.

 

[BryBrew]

Right on. Thanks for the help. I'm thinking I might return the johnson controller and probe and go this route. I noticed you used the sly-2352 controller. I saw they make a sly-2372 that has a built in SSR. Is that something worth considering?

I guess this still gets me back to my original concept of having a separate switch to each the pump and the element. Maybe it's not that important to have some system that will not allow the element to run if pump is off.

Hmmm

Thanks again

 

[blizz81]

Right on. Thanks for the help. I'm thinking I might return the johnson controller and probe and go this route. I noticed you used the sly-2352 controller. I saw they make a sly-2372 that has a built in SSR. Is that something worth considering?

I guess this still gets me back to my original concept of having a separate switch to each the pump and the element. Maybe it's not that important to have some system that will not allow the element to run if pump is off.

Hmmm

Thanks again

I'm probably at least as big-time beginner as you on the electrical stuff - taking a look, though, I would think this would be a red flag for the 2372:

"Please note that this is NOT for our DC triggered AC SSR. It can not handle more than 300W (at 110V ) either."


With my newbness still in mind, I would think you could run from the SSR to the pump switch to a separate heater switch if you wanted to be able to still manually control heater, but also only have it run when the pump is on.

 

[BryBrew]

Do you happen to remember the SSR you used?

 

[BryBrew]

Also, not that I don't believe you, but know why people don't use the Johnson? I've looked it over and I think it would cycle the element. Dunno.

 

[blizz81]

That's one thing I don't have on my parts list, but pretty sure it was this guy:

http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_30&products_id=9


Some pics for idea of size of control box, orientation of things, etc. Got the biggest "standard" plastic enclosure they had at Home Depot and I'd have liked to have something a bit larger, pretty squeezed in.

https://plus.google.com/photos/107388208376046611091/albums/5998086480059210065

 

[augiedoggy]

Also, not that I don't believe you, but know why people don't use the Johnson? I've looked it over and I think it would cycle the element. Dunno.

pid + temp sensor probe+ ssr and heatsink can be bought for less than $40 shipped.... How much is that Johnson unit?
Cost aside
The main reason is that a Johnson unit is not pid controlled it works like the cheap "STC1000" thermostat type controllers and it does not have the ability to turn on and off very quickly because it doesn't use an ssr for switching but rather a mechanical switch (relay) and the contacts would burn up from being asked to switch that fast that often... the ssr can turn on and off multiple times a second and actually have very tight controll of element temps this way.

My recommendation if you really feel you will need step by step help and arent up to doing some research and watching some youtube videos is to just spend the extra $100 or so and buy the stuff from aubrins they have the best support, its just very expensive.

That said,
If you know how to wire a wall switch and understand how it works and dont mind doing some research I recommend going with a mypin pid. For rims manual mode is not needed so a Ta4 or Ta7 model will work but the TD4 series is better since it has manual mode... just make sure you buy one designed for driving an ssr and not a relay model... (SNR and SSR models are both good from memory) like this one that comes with an ssr

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dual-PID-Te...387?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19d0ff9dbb
you will also need a sensor like a PT100 which can range from $4 for one without a quick disconnect to about $20 for the deluxe version with a disconnect and 1/2 NPT threads...
and an ssr heatsink ($3 on ebay )

 

[augiedoggy]

That's one thing I don't have on my parts list, but pretty sure it was this guy:

http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_30&products_id=9


Some pics for idea of size of control box, orientation of things, etc. Got the biggest "standard" plastic enclosure they had at Home Depot and I'd have liked to have something a bit larger, pretty squeezed in.

https://plus.google.com/photos/107388208376046611091/albums/5998086480059210065

BTW here is the exact same brand of ssr for less with a heatsink and shipping...
(aubrins has them rebranded with thier name on them)

and as far as that 12x12x8 home depot enclosure?... as you can see I squeezed a lot more into it with no issues (I replaced the front panel because I butchered the first one with my original layout...)
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/facelift-my-control-panel-497593/

 

[BryBrew]

Right on. Thanks to everyone for their input. I've now educated myself, via you nice folks, on lots of PID, SSR, electrical stuff and know what I want to do. My main goal originally was to have a situation where I could run my pump independently and then make sure my element shut off (would not come on no matter what controller was saying to do) when the pump was off. Through todays research I have ordered the Auber DIN PID 2352 model, a 25A SSR, heat sink, probe, etc. I think I have figured a way to wire it to my desired goal as well. I'll attach a rough drawing of what I'm thinking (also so I don't lose it in my mind).

Just drew that real quick. Beware, its dirty but I think I can make it work.

 

[BryBrew]

Wow! Thanks for that link, augiedoggy! I will order from eBay afterall. Great deal. Do you think it is necessary to get the heat sink? Also, that build to your link is quite a piece of work. Guess I'll just have to keep going bigger!

 

[blizz81]

and as far as that 12x12x8 home depot enclosure?... as you can see I squeezed a lot more into it with no issues (I replaced the front panel because I butchered the first one with my original layout...)

Nice!


That's definitely bigger than the ones I could find. Perhaps they were out of stock or larger ones were elsewhere. Mine is probably 6" x 6"

 

[augiedoggy]

Nice!


That's definitely bigger than the ones I could find. Perhaps they were out of stock or larger ones were elsewhere. Mine is probably 6" x 6"

yeah I have the 6x6 one mounted below with my stc1000s for controlling my fermenter temps.

 

[augiedoggy]

Wow! Thanks for that link, augiedoggy! I will order from eBay afterall. Great deal. Do you think it is necessary to get the heat sink? Also, that build to your link is quite a piece of work. Guess I'll just have to keep going bigger!

Thanks,
yes you want a heatsink... if you have an old pc you can use the cpu heatsink if you drill the two holes....