Windows 11

[sibelman]

I supported business users of Windows from 3 through 10, skipping the worst versions (ME & 8). IIRC, I also skipped 98 in favor of NT4. I'm very happy to no longer deal with Windows support.

In retirement, the sole benefit of my one Windows (10) machine is that I can't access Kanopy streaming with Raspberry Pi OS due to DRM.

I'm dithering about whether to upgrade the Win10 laptop to Ubuntu, or just leave it 'cuz it's really almost only for Kanopy streaming, and thus not much of a security worry once patches cease.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

At my previous job (which increasingly seems like ancient history as I've been at my current job almost 18 years) our business was embedded computing. At the time, we had a ton of our customers on either Windows CE or Windows XP Embedded. Windows was dominant in the space.

This was before Linux had ascended, and in fact I left that job about a year before Android 1.0 was released...

 

[day_trippr]

Between home and work (chip and board architecture and design) I had to deal with nearly every desktop and server version of Windows, up until I retired in 2019 (before Server 2022 was released). Skipped the real basket cases wrt desktop versions (I guess "Bob" was not a Windows version but a shell stuffed with some apps). I liked XP, 7, and grew to like 10 and now 11.

Cheers!

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

Just got a notice that windows 10 support is about to end, not a big deal for me but that says a lot about the direction they are going

 

[mac_1103]

What direction is that? Windows 10 was released in July, 2015. Are they supposed to support legacy software forever?

 

[balrog]

What direction is that? Windows 10 was released in July, 2015. Are they supposed to support legacy software forever?

If my order entry and ice cream mixing system requires I keep windows XP then by God we are keeping Windows XP and not upgrading to this 10 stuff.

Actual quote.

They had to use paper and pencil when ransom ware struck.

Try keeping FDA happy with product tracking on food stuffs w paper and pencil.

Fun times.

It’s one of the reasons God had Man invent beer.

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

What direction is that? Windows 10 was released in July, 2015. Are they supposed to support legacy software forever?

October 15 2025 is what i saw, they may extend it

 

[day_trippr]

If my order entry and ice cream mixing system requires I keep windows XP then by God we are keeping Windows XP

I still have a working laptop with XP just to run the factory service manual for my 2000 Audi S4. That manual was never available in hardcopy, just a CD by Bentley Publishing, who pretty much abandoned their proprietary electronic manual platform when XP was retired. This thread prompted me to look back at Bentley and I found they have an updated platform that appears to include the manual I've been looking for (email inquiry sent).

Cheers!

 

[tracer bullet]

We've got some XP machines at work, they'll get replaced when they finally break. They aren't on the internet so they aren't complaining.

 

[sibelman]

support legacy software forever?

Microsoft told us Windows 10 would be the last, final version, patched and upgraded forever. Credible? Not so much, but even so...

 

[shoengine]

Microsoft told us Windows 10 would be the last, final version, patched and upgraded forever. Credible? Not so much, but even so...

It was more of a way of advertising Windows as a Service. Not sure why they walked that back, but the build changes within versions pack in way more changes (for good and for bad) than the old OSes ever saw, including things like 95 a, b and c and Win XP service packs.

Maybe they thought 11 was a cooler number than 10?

 

[sibelman]

Maybe they thought 11 was a cooler number than 10?

Aside from exciting enhancements (like bunches of advertising owing forth from the core UI) , they apparently feel they can't support older hardware that lacks adequate security capability, i.e.TPM. Perhaps that's the main reason to declare a new version number, cool or not.

If Windows is a black hole from which enterprise desktop computing can't escape, desktop Linux is Hawking radiation.

Cheers!

 

[shoengine]

Aside from exciting enhancements (like bunches of advertising owing forth from the core UI) , they apparently feel they can't support older hardware that lacks adequate security capability, i.e.TPM. Perhaps that's the main reason to declare a new version number, cool or not.

If Windows is a black hole from which enterprise desktop computing can't escape, desktop Linux is Hawking radiation.

Cheers!

Similar obsolescence occurred with Windows 10 and even worse with Vista (which was mainly due to drivers, but same difference).

What does Linux have to do with Windows versioning?

 

[sibelman]

What does Linux have to do with Windows versioning?

It has to do with stepping off the Windows bandwagon.

Windows has many virtues, and -- if you ignore some MS missteps -- it's way better than it once was.

 

[PCABrewing]

Microsoft told us Windows 10 would be the last, final version, patched and upgraded forever. Credible? Not so much, but even so...

I remember that!

 

[shoengine]

It has to do with stepping off the Windows bandwagon.

Windows has many virtues, and -- if you ignore some MS missteps -- it's way better than it once was.

Ah, I didn't realize the subtext to the conversation was switching to Linux.

 

[sibelman]

subtext to the conversation

Only my tangential remarks, not the main conversation about Win11. Coming from a UNIX background, I naturally gravitate toward Linux.

Though I many times considered leading my organization to desktop Linux (of course, I heavily deployed Linux in the data center), I realized that any user trouble would be blamed on Linux (and me!) - hence my analogy to the black hole from which nothing can escape.

Of course, quite a few desktop apps on which many organizations rely absolutely require Windows.

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

man there's a buncha old nerds on this message-thread!

Recently ditched windows 10 due to a hard drive failure (when an SSD dies, there's no warning, and then you can't even read anything from it). Anyways, been quite happy with Linux Mint / Cinnamon, and pleasantly surprised to see more and more of my steam games that now "just work" (thru steam and wine, I did nothing).

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

Between home and work (chip and board architecture and design) I had to deal with nearly every desktop and server version of Windows, up until I retired in 2019 (before Server 2022 was released). Skipped the real basket cases wrt desktop versions (I guess "Bob" was not a Windows version but a shell stuffed with some apps). I liked XP, 7, and grew to like 10 and now 11.

View attachment 881067

Cheers!

went down the same path, I started out with MS-DOS 5.0

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

man there's a buncha old nerds on this message-thread!

Recently ditched windows 10 due to a hard drive failure (when an SSD dies, there's no warning, and then you can't even read anything from it). Anyways, been quite happy with Linux Mint / Cinnamon, and pleasantly surprised to see more and more of my steam games that now "just work" (thru steam and wine, I did nothing).

Speaking of HDDs and SSDs, if anyone here is also in the industry and will be at FMS in Santa Clara next week, let me know.

 

[day_trippr]

One thing that bugs the heck out of me is the complete lack of control of Windows 11 updating. Even though one can set Windows Update to "pause" for 1 to 5 weeks, it will actually still apply updates if it feels like it. One can pull up the Windows "Reliability Monitor" a day or more after having set Pause and that'll show what actually happens - and I'd be totally surprised if you don't find updates. And not just for Security needs; it'll update apps if it feels the need, too.

I've had my system running like a swiss watch for weeks suddenly exhibit bizarre behavior out of the blue - like failing to survive Sleep, ffs! Switching to a backup boot drive never fails to "fix" this kind of issue, which eventually gets resolved by another Update without any intervention by me. Then I check the update logs and find both the update that caused the problem and the update that fixed it.

Best as I can tell that Pause function only applies to "Feature" updates, and really the only way to totally stop updates is to stop and disable the wuauserv service under services.msc...

Cheers!

 

[shoengine]

Though I many times considered leading my organization to desktop Linux (of course, I heavily deployed Linux in the data center), I realized that any user trouble would be blamed on Linux (and me!) - hence my analogy to the black hole from which nothing can escape.

Of course, quite a few desktop apps on which many organizations rely absolutely require Windows.

Microsoft did an excellent job of locking in enterprises early on and have held onto those customers for the most part. I feel as stuff becomes more cloudy the need to use a specific OS will get less and less critical. Hopefully.

Anyways, been quite happy with Linux Mint / Cinnamon, and pleasantly surprised to see more and more of my steam games that now "just work" (thru steam and wine, I did nothing).

I like Mint. I started on OpenSUSE about twenty years ago and moved to Fedora for a while since my work used Redhat, but for my PC I needed something more Ubuntu like. I used Xubuntu for a while but switched to Mint a little while ago. I still have to rely on my Windows PC for most of my multiplayer games and Blender unfortunately. Laptop devices are just so hit and miss with various distros.

 

[day_trippr]

I've been observing a move towards OS-agnostic "web apps" lately, which with broader adoption and maturation could motivate some to make the transition from Windows to *nix...

Cheers!

 

[sibelman]

I've been observing a move towards OS-agnostic "web apps" lately, which with broader adoption and maturation could motivate some to make the transition from Windows to *nix...

Cheers!

Yes. This could end the utter dominance of Windows, but seems to be dragging us into a new Googly black hole: Chrome, and Chromium-based browsers. I've been seeing a rise in Firefox compatibility problems.

 

[shoengine]

I've been observing a move towards OS-agnostic "web apps" lately, which with broader adoption and maturation could motivate some to make the transition from Windows to *nix...

Cheers!

I swear I just said that

 

[day_trippr]

After review I clearly missed the "more cloudy" bit
But I said it better...

 

[shoengine]

Yes. This could end the utter dominance of Windows, but seems to be dragging us into a new Googly black hole: Chrome, and Chromium-based browsers. I've been seeing a rise in Firefox compatibility problems.

Mozilla has had eons to own the market. Anyone want to blame the IE pack-in for the current Chromium-Webkit duopoly?

Mozilla spends more time futzing with their governance than writing good code. The last time I enjoyed a good Mozilla browser it was called Firebird.

Everyone knows elinks is the future anyway

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

Mozilla has had eons to own the market. Anyone want to blame the IE pack-in for the current Chromium-Webkit duopoly?

View attachment 881194

Mozilla spends more time futzing with their governance than writing good code. The last time I enjoyed a good Mozilla browser it was called Firebird.

Everyone knows elinks is the future anyway

opera was my fav until development stopped

 

[sibelman]

Mozilla spends more time futzing with their governance than writing good code. The last time I enjoyed a good Mozilla browser it was called Firebird.

For some time, I used Chrome happily. Later, the fear and loathing of "don't be evil" Google/Alphabet overtook me. As you may know, Steve Jobs correctly identified this in-house directive as "bull****."

Aside from still-rare compatibility issues, Firefox (and Thunderbird) serve me very well. Of course, you may use the web in ways that favor Chrome or (gasp!) Safari.

When necessary, I use Brave or unGoogled Chromium.

 

[shoengine]

Brave on the phone, Edge on the Windows PC, Firefox on Mint. Used Palemoon for a bit but there wasn't much advantage over Firefox. Used to use Opera on the phone but switched to Brave.

I don't feel like there is really any reason to get into the privacy debate. The don't be evil garbage is just that. Microsoft, Apple and Google are all public companies and the way they create revenue is fairly obvious. Not sure Mozilla's policies but you have to be extremely scrupulous with your online processes to avoid being tracked/monetized.

 

[shoengine]

I know this is the Windows 11 thread, but since Linux keeps coming up, I figured I'd post this here for the penguins:

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Linux-is-becoming-more-appealing-for-gamers-here-s-why.1078308.0.html

 

[day_trippr]

A crapton of Windows updates this afternoon - and now Windows Phone/Link to Windows is borked, so PC won't connect to phone. Reboot both, no joy. Screw Microsoft!

One of these broke it I'm sure...

9WZDNCRD29V9-MICROSOFT.MICROSOFTOFFICEHUB Successful Windows Update
Microsoft ASP.NET Core 8.0.19 Shared Framework (x86) Successful application installation
E Microsoft ASP.NET Core 8.0.19 Shared Framework (x64) Successful application installation
Microsoft .NET Runtime - 8.0.19 (x86) Successful application installation
Microsoft .NET Host FX Resolver - 8.0.19 (x86) Successful application installation
Microsoft .NET Host - 8.0.19 (x86) Successful application installation
Microsoft Windows Desktop Runtime - 8.0.19 (x86) Successful application installation
Microsoft .NET Runtime - 8.0.19 (x64) Successful application installation
Microsoft .NET Host FX Resolver - 8.0.19 (x64) Successful application installation
Microsoft .NET Host - 8.0.19 (x64) Successful application installation
E Microsoft Windows Desktop Runtime - 8.0.19 (x64) Successful application installation
2025-08 .NET 8.0.19 Update for x64 Client (KB5064838) Successful Windows Update
Microsoft .NET Runtime - 9.0.8 (x64) Successful application installation
Microsoft .NET Host FX Resolver - 9.0.8 (x64) Successful application installation
Microsoft .NET Host - 9.0.8 (x64) Successful application installation
E Microsoft Windows Desktop Runtime - 9.0.8 (x64) Successful application installation
2025-08 .NET 9.0.8 Update for x64 Client (KB5064837) Successful Windows Update

Microsoft pisses me off

 

[sibelman]

Windows Phone/Link to Windows

Sorry you're having these troubles. Can you roll back the updates?

Also: does this mean you're using a Windows phone? (seems unlikely, but I had to ask)

 

[estricklin]

A crapton of Windows updates this afternoon - and now Windows Phone/Link to Windows is borked, so PC won't connect to phone. Reboot both, no joy. Screw Microsoft!

One of these broke it I'm sure...

9WZDNCRD29V9-MICROSOFT.MICROSOFTOFFICEHUB Successful Windows Update
Microsoft ASP.NET Core 8.0.19 Shared Framework (x86) Successful application installation
E Microsoft ASP.NET Core 8.0.19 Shared Framework (x64) Successful application installation
Microsoft .NET Runtime - 8.0.19 (x86) Successful application installation
Microsoft .NET Host FX Resolver - 8.0.19 (x86) Successful application installation
Microsoft .NET Host - 8.0.19 (x86) Successful application installation
Microsoft Windows Desktop Runtime - 8.0.19 (x86) Successful application installation
Microsoft .NET Runtime - 8.0.19 (x64) Successful application installation
Microsoft .NET Host FX Resolver - 8.0.19 (x64) Successful application installation
Microsoft .NET Host - 8.0.19 (x64) Successful application installation
E Microsoft Windows Desktop Runtime - 8.0.19 (x64) Successful application installation
2025-08 .NET 8.0.19 Update for x64 Client (KB5064838) Successful Windows Update
Microsoft .NET Runtime - 9.0.8 (x64) Successful application installation
Microsoft .NET Host FX Resolver - 9.0.8 (x64) Successful application installation
Microsoft .NET Host - 9.0.8 (x64) Successful application installation
E Microsoft Windows Desktop Runtime - 9.0.8 (x64) Successful application installation
2025-08 .NET 9.0.8 Update for x64 Client (KB5064837) Successful Windows Update

Microsoft pisses me off

I absolutely love phone link, but wow it has caused me so much trouble. If you sneeze near it, it stops working.

 

[balrog]

Hm. I've got a Surface Pro 3 and Surface Pro 5, both old, both amusingly updated to Win11 for grins & giggles, both which WiFi fine at home on the TMobile appliance I have, neither of which can even update simple Win Defender Updates at the Church Lady job I have with a mesh system, starting this past May. I mean they connect, they browse, but nothing can be downloaded - they just time out. But fine at home. I figure it's a no longer updatable wifi driver or Win11 just being Win11. It's not worth any expenditure of gray matter, I do know that.

 

[day_trippr]

Sorry you're having these troubles. Can you roll back the updates?

Also: does this mean you're using a Windows phone? (seems unlikely, but I had to ask)

Not a Windows phone (is that still a thing?); Samsung Android phones and tablets.
I haven't tried a roll-back on this bug because it's not that consequential and I expect it'll get fixed soon.

Cheers!

 

[balrog]

I expect it'll get fixed soon.

"Hope springs eternal"

 

[day_trippr]

Well this afternoon Link to Windows is working again. Quick Share is still borked...

 

[sibelman]

Well this afternoon Link to Windows is working again. Quick Share is still borked...

Back in the early 90s at a Microsoft focus group, asked what could be improved in Windows, I whined attractively that business use shouldn't be interrupted by frequent failures requiring reboots, followed by more failures (they said NT ("Cairo") was coming.

It doesn't appear that anything is coming over the hill to fix the kind of thing you've experienced. Except waiting for the next fix. I assume that enterprise IT still defers Win11 updates until things look safe, and that you're experiencing the bleeding edge at home?

 

[day_trippr]

Not quite bleeding edge these days - I dropped out of the "Insiders" branch because of the constant headaches from sketchy updates. But as I've mentioned, one can't really "stop" Windows Updates unless the underlying service is prevented from running, so I like everyone else in the "Broad" channel I take the hits as they appear

The next-to-last job I had was designing fault tolerant server systems - both the ASICs and motherboards that used them. We had a reputation for a solid 5 nines of availability verging on 6. But those systems had the advantage of running Enterprise level NT and derivative releases which were especially well tested by MS, and nothing but well tested code ever got close to those machines in the field, which were used for quite critical applications where downtime spelled disaster...

Cheers!

[edit] fwiw, while Quick Share is taking a dirt nap I've been using CX File Explorer to push files from my 'Droids to my workstation. Works almost as easily as Quick Share when that's working