Will switching to AG alleviate that "homebrew" taste?

[Mikey_Dawg]

OP, I live in Austin and started out using LME from them since their kits come that way. I've since switched and can definitely tell the difference. Maybe it is just me, but I can't recall having a beer I made with AHB's LME that didn't have a twang to it. I still brew partial mash, but switching to DME has notably improved my output.

Interesting.... I just ordered ingredients for my next two beers, wish I had known. Guess I will use the DME next time around to see how that turns out.

 

[Mikey_Dawg]

Something that just hit me that I should clear up. Austin says to get the wort down to 80, move to primary fermenter, and then top off water and pitch the yeast. So I bet I am actually pitching at a temp much lower than 80 when you actually top off with cold water. I've never measured the exact temp but will this next time around to see how far the temp drops when the cold water is added.

 

[Yooper]

Something that just hit me that I should clear up. Austin says to get the wort down to 80, move to primary fermenter, and then top off water and pitch the yeast. So I bet I am actually pitching at a temp much lower than 80 when you actually top off with cold water. I've never measured the exact temp but will this next time around to see how far the temp drops when the cold water is added.

That's a good point. Also, try an ice/water bath in a cooler or bin and put your fermenter in there. Monitor the actual fermentation temperature of the beer with a stick-on thermometer (like for aquariums) and keep it under 68 degrees.

Some yeast strains, particularly So4 and nottingham, have a distinctive taste if they get over 72 degrees. S05 does "ok" up to about 74 degrees, but gets fruity over about that temperature.

I noticed that if I use nottingham and S04, 62 degrees is the best temperature for them, while 68 degrees seems to be perfect for S05.

 

[Dilligaf76]

I think I just got rid of my "homebrew" taste. I think the fermentation temps were the culprit. You said you didn't notice it as much with your cascade beer. If it's a high fermentation temp flavor it may be harder to pick up in such a fruity beer. Mine would get worse two weeks after bottling but took longer to develop in the keg.
I don't think pitching at 80 would be horrible as long as within a couple hours you could get it in the low 60's. I usually pitch at 75 the put the fermenter in my swamp cooler with plenty of ice. The swamp cooler water is leftover from using a pump to recirculate ice water through my IC. It's usually around 50 degrees so the temps of the wort are quickly brought down.

 

[Mikey_Dawg]

That's a good point. Also, try an ice/water bath in a cooler or bin and put your fermenter in there. Monitor the actual fermentation temperature of the beer with a stick-on thermometer (like for aquariums) and keep it under 68 degrees.

Some yeast strains, particularly So4 and nottingham, have a distinctive taste if they get over 72 degrees. S05 does "ok" up to about 74 degrees, but gets fruity over about that temperature.

I noticed that if I use nottingham and S04, 62 degrees is the best temperature for them, while 68 degrees seems to be perfect for S05.

Does one ice bath usually keep the batch cool enough through fermentation (with room temps around 70-72)...or will I need to refresh the ice?

 

[passedpawn]

Thanks a lot for adding that, I'll have to read up on it - I think you're right about chlorine evaporating, I had assumed (oops) that it was the same for chloramine! Thankfully my city doesn't add chlorine or chloramine so I get to just use my tap water.

Boiling tap water will remove chloramines as well as chlorine, though the camden tablets are simpler to use. I think 15 minutes is sufficient. Water must be boiled before adding to mash (i.e., the chloramines won't be removed by boiling the wort).

I see it isn't an issue for you, but I'm dropping this here for others that were wondering.

 

[danielbt]

Something that just hit me that I should clear up. Austin says to get the wort down to 80, move to primary fermenter, and then top off water and pitch the yeast. So I bet I am actually pitching at a temp much lower than 80 when you actually top off with cold water. I've never measured the exact temp but will this next time around to see how far the temp drops when the cold water is added.

Where are you getting your top-off water? Tap water in Austin is 85F right now, and room temp is maybe 75F if you like your AC on all day. Are you chilling your top-off water? If not, your wort is still too warm when you pitch.

Edit: just realized you aren't in Austin. Never mind.

 

[danielbt]

Boiling tap water will remove chloramines

Everything I've seen contradicts this. In fact, the source does as well: http://www.chloramine.org/chloraminefacts.htm

Use Campden. Boiling will not do anything.

 

[danielbt]

Does one ice bath usually keep the batch cool enough through fermentation (with room temps around 70-72)...or will I need to refresh the ice?

Google swamp cooler. Basically, evaporative cooling will keep your fermenter 1-15F lower than the surrounding air.

 

[Yooper]

Boiling tap water will remove chloramines as well as chlorine, though the camden tablets are simpler to use. I think 15 minutes is sufficient. Water must be boiled before adding to mash (i.e., the chloramines won't be removed by boiling the wort).

I see it isn't an issue for you, but I'm dropping this here for others that were wondering.

Chloramines will boil off, eventually, but you'd run out of water first! I think it's something like hours, not minutes, to boil off chloramine. I have read some sources that say it can be boiled off more readily, but sources I trust say not.

 

[Yooper]

Does one ice bath usually keep the batch cool enough through fermentation (with room temps around 70-72)...or will I need to refresh the ice?

I freeze large-ish sized soda bottles of water, and change them out once a day. I float a thermometer in the water bath (along with a tablespoon of bleach to avoid mold growth in my cooler) and I have a homemade foam lid to insulate it.

Here's a photo:

 

[passedpawn]

Chloramines will boil off, eventually, but you'd run out of water first! I think it's something like hours, not minutes, to boil off chloramine. I have read some sources that say it can be boiled off more readily, but sources I trust say not.

AJ Delange? I dropped his paper on this subject into my dropbox for your persusal. I was wrong about how long it took to reduce. From his experiments, it takes about 60 minutes to reduce the chloramines to less than 1% of its starting concentration. Hard to say what the "taste threshold" is for chloramines and the resulting chlorophenols, but I'd guess that 1% would be more than sufficient.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7cy2uzdsx86ogtx/BT_Chlorine.pdf

 

[Brizzo]

It absolutely will, I have made great beer using both methods but the all grain beers are more similar in quality to a micro brew, much fresher without that twang. Kegging seemed to help too, that way you can dial in your carbonation which I feel makes a big difference.

 

[bschoenb]

I'm guessing its due to fermentation. I was in your shoes. Once I started making starters, using pure O2, and controlling fermentation temps, my beers started tasting as good as commercial beers (once and a while, better). If ambient temp is 70, then the fermentation is likely going higher than that (it produces heat) which could cause flavor issues. Switching to all-grain won't fix that.

I've had some really good beers made with extract. It is possible. I'd get your fermentation processes in check before you switch to all-grain (but then I'd switch to all grain - its super fun).

I'd say this is your number one reason for that "taste"; I'd also chime in that you want to pitch at least as cold as your ferementation temperature... "65ish"... A water batch with rotating Freezer bottles would do wonders for you as well

 

[Firebat138]

by "homebrew" taste you mean, great tasting beer? who gets rid of that.

 

[duboman]

My .02
If you go through winning entries of the national Homebrew competition you will see many award winning beers made solely with extract so if all your processes are good you too can produce award winning beers with extract only or PM.

After reading through this thread I would focus on your fermentation temperatures first, cleaning and sanitizing your keg set up: by this I mean you should be taking everything apart periodically and taking care of everything! Even the towers and connections, you'll be surprised what you find Third, have your water tested and make adjustments as necessary.

In this order I think you will see a marked improvement in your final product!

 

[Yooper]

AJ Delange? I dropped his paper on this subject into my dropbox for your persusal. I was wrong about how long it took to reduce. From his experiments, it takes about 60 minutes to reduce the chloramines to less than 1% of its starting concentration. Hard to say what the "taste threshold" is for chloramines and the resulting chlorophenols, but I'd guess that 1% would be more than sufficient.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7cy2uzdsx86ogtx/BT_Chlorine.pdf

It's WAY over my head, but I don't see where it takes 60 minutes of boiling to get to 1% of its starting concentration. I see that he broke it into half-lives, and it looks like in some cases that the boiling was for like 10 hours. I don't think it's as simple as "1 hour of boiling reduces chloramines to 1% of its start" but of course I'm not even close to understanding all of the equations!

 

[passedpawn]

It's WAY over my head, but I don't see where it takes 60 minutes of boiling to get to 1% of its starting concentration. I see that he broke it into half-lives, and it looks like in some cases that the boiling was for like 10 hours. I don't think it's as simple as "1 hour of boiling reduces chloramines to 1% of its start" but of course I'm not even close to understanding all of the equations!

The take-away there is the half life of the chloramines, which is the time it takes for the concentration to cut in half, is between 6 and 10 minutes. This graph is from that paper, but since the Y axis was log concentration (logarithmic) I've replaced that with percentage. I also moved the time scale to start with the boil which makes more sense I think. You can see from the graph that the chloramine level is reduced below 1% after about 45 minutes of the boil. Apparently AJ's system took well over an hour to reach the boil, but that wasn't relevant to the discussion. Pretty cool data I think.

 

[divrguy]

......Probably start with a simple BIAB setup to get the ball rolling. But right now, I am building my brewing domain in my basement so I want to get that done first.

Now you're talking.. Try an AG BIAB and see what changes!

 

[claytongilmore]

Could this taste develop as the beer ages? That was my first thought when I tasted it as I simple dont recall the taste when the beer was more fresh.

If you use pellet hops, try whole hops instead. That cleared up my problem.

Ever since I've started kegging, I noticed my beer would taste great for the first couple of days, then over the course of a couple weeks would take on a harsh bite/twang. This off flavor would persist up to a month or two, after which the beer would suddenly taste fantastic. Of course, the keg would usually be nearly empty by that point.

I narrowed it down to hop particles from the pellets. Dozens of people have told me they don't have this problem. They told me to rack carefully to avoid getting hop gunk in the fermenter, ditto for keg, and to let it sit for a few days in the keg to let everything settle and then to dump the first pint or two. I've done all of these things, and none of them helped. I don't know what it is about my process that apparently makes me prone to this problem where others aren't, but switching to whole hops definitely fixed it for me.

 

[BigEd]

I've been brewing for almost 7 years now and have gotten pretty decent at it but I have never moved past partial mash brews. Even still, at times I still get that "homebrew" taste that reminds me that I am not producing commerical quality beers just yet.

The "homebrew" taste is more evident in some beers than others and IMO seems to get worse the longer I keep my beer stays in the keg.

Will going to AG minimize that taste I am referring to? I plan to do it very soon, but am trying to wrap up a huge basement /bar project I've been working on all year first. Thoughts?

The "homebrew' taste to which your are alluding can in some cases be aggravated by extract brewing but extract brewing is not necessarily the problem. Most extract homebrewers are doing partial boils and this alone can cause the "caramelly", too sweet flavor that many of us have encountered. A full boil brew combined with proper wort chilling will dramatically improve most extract beers.

Off flavors, particularly phenolic which is very common, are usually tied to improper sanitation and/or poor temperature control and/or underpitching yeast. Bad recipes are another common culprit. While it doesn't seem to happen as much as in years past (I'm an old SOB and have run across a lot of bad homebrew) there are still lots of awful recipes out there and making one without realizing its deficiencies will not make a quality beer even with good technique.

Anyways, all things being equal and not to start any debate, assuming you are already applying the best techniques, ingredients and recipes if you switch to AG you could make better beer. However, if you have a problem in the process and do not fix it simply going AG isn't going to bring you the cure.

 

[SusieBrew]

You are correct. I really am happy with 95% of the beers Ive made over the past 4 or 5 years when I really felt like I got past the learning curve of home brewing (at least in the partial mash style).

Last night I poured a couple strawberry blondes that I made a few months back and A) It was excellent B) I did not notice this taste.

I also have a Rye Pale Ale on draft that I had a week or so ago (that is even older than the SB) and when I poured one of those I did notice the taste we are discussing. I still drank the beer and enjoyed it very much but if I had any complaint about the beer, that would be it. I dont recall noticing it with a Cascade IPA I have on draft right now though.

Could this taste develop as the beer ages? That was my first thought when I tasted it as I simple dont recall the taste when the beer was more fresh.

At the end of the day, all I was really asking is will AG batches improve my homebrew vs. extract. This is the only complaint I have about my beer and like I've pointed out, I dont notice it more times than I do which really only makes it harder to pinpoint.

I've got some good info out of the discussion though. I am planning on moving to AG regardless sometime in the next year as it is long past due. Probably start with a simple BIAB setup to get the ball rolling. But right now, I am building my brewing domain in my basement so I want to get that done first.

I have read the thread and did not realize how prevelant the homebrew taste is. I will monitor my own brews. For this as I progress into AG. Thanks for the education.
Susie

 

[Heflover]

Are you racking to a secondary fermenter? I am just getting started on brewing but this seems to keep the beer off the trub to avoid off flavors. I suppose if you still have trub or excessive yeast left in the beer when you keg it, it could agitate again and start doing who knows what.

 

[iskuse]

1. Process
2. Sanitation
3. Quality of products

I don't think going from extract to all grain will necessarily make better beers if the above items are not aligned. You do however have more control in what you are making. Who knows what went into the DME or LME that you are buying. Like stated above though, many have won awards with extract brewing. The thing that is nice about AG is that you know everything that went into that beer. One thing I have noticed in some of my beers is an off flavor that I do not care about. I went back through my notes and I am trying to pinpoint the problem and I believe it is Cascade hops. I'm not a big fan of Hoppy beers, but I noticed I am not too paticular about beers with cascade. something about it just stands out

One thing to try would be to make two identical beers, one all grain and one with extract, then do a blind taste test. it's amazing how much your percetion changes when you don't visually "see" what you are drinkng.

 

[FirstStateBrewer]

Anyways, all things being equal and not to start any debate, assuming you are already applying the best techniques, ingredients and recipes if you switch to AG you could make better beer. However, if you have a problem in the process and do not fix it simply going AG isn't going to bring you the cure.

I wouldn't make that assumption. In fact, I would suggest if he's making bad beer with extract, he will make REALLY bad beer with AG. The AG process complicates things tremendously. I brewed extract for 20 years before going AG in the Spring of 2011. I was making consistently awesome brews in my opinion with extract. Only switched to AG to add more excitement to my brewing. My advice is for him to fix his "homebrew" taste problem (whatever that mean) before switching to AG.

 

[duboman]

I wouldn't make that assumption. In fact, I would suggest if he's making bad beer with extract, he will make REALLY bad beer with AG. The AG process complicates things tremendously. I brewed extract for 20 years before going AG in the Spring of 2011. I was making consistently awesome brews in my opinion with extract. Only switched to AG to add more excitement to my brewing. My advice is for him to fix his "homebrew" taste problem (whatever that mean) before switching to AG.

I agree. There are more variables involved in AG brewing that can really mess things up and are more difficult to diagnose and fix to improve.

As I mentioned much earlier, there are many accomplished brewers doing all extract and brewing award winning beer!

If you can't make great beer with good,fresh, extract kits or recipes you will be hard pressed to fix it by going AG.

IMO it is best to figure out exactly what is going on in your extract technique and fix it first. Freshness of ingredients, cleaning/sanitizing, fermentation temperatures, pitching rate, making starters, water quality and final packaging are all things that need to be broken down and looked at. Once all these aspects are improved upon the beer too will improve!

 

[FirstStateBrewer]

Another peeve I have with the original poster, when I look at this listing of "“Off” Flavors In Beer", I don't see that "homebrew" taste in there anywhere. To me, it would make sense to identify what that "homebrew" taste really is and then address that.

http://morebeer.com/public/pdf/off_flavor.pdf

 

[Mikey_Dawg]

Another peeve I have with the original poster, when I look at this listing of "“Off” Flavors In Beer", I don't see that "homebrew" taste in there anywhere. To me, it would make sense to identify what that "homebrew" taste really is and then address that.

http://morebeer.com/public/pdf/off_flavor.pdf

Sorry to peeve you, but if you've read through the thread, I am not the only person that has experienced the taste I am describing.

Perhaps I should have worded my initial question better, but all I was really asking was "is there an obvious taste difference when moving from extract HB to AG HB?"

The simple answer would have been "No"...or "It shouldnt"... But overall, a few things have been brought to light in this thread that I think will be helpful...so..<shrug>

Also, who is to say I am making a bad Extract beer at all? I simply stating that from time to time in certain beers, I notice a slight off taste that I wanted to identify....and thought maybe, just maybe, it was a taste associated with using extracts.

 

[FirstStateBrewer]

Sorry to peeve you, but if you've read through the thread, I am not the only person that has experienced the taste I am describing.

Perhaps I should have worded my initial question better, but all I was really asking was "is there an obvious taste difference when moving from extract HB to AG HB?"

The simple answer would have been "No"...or "It shouldnt"... But overall, a few things have been brought to light in this thread that I think will be helpful...so..<shrug>

Also, who is to say I am making a bad Extract beer at all? I simply stating that from time to time in certain beers, I notice a slight off taste that I wanted to identify....and thought maybe, just maybe, it was a taste associated with using extracts.

Why don't you want to find out what this mystery flavor is and how to correct it?

 

[Yooper]

Why don't you want to find out what this mystery flavor is and how to correct it?

Stop. You're getting to the point of harassment.

This is a forum for discussion, not for inquisitions. Either post to be helpful, or walk away. Thanks!