Why some many answers about PBW concentration?

[dogbrew]

This is not a question specifically about how much PBW to use, it is a question about why no one seems to know how much to use, not even the people at Five Star.

Not having a home scale (I know, I know...) but using PBW, I have many times googled the concentration of PBW for cleaning home kegs and buckets, and what I have found is that there are WILDLY different answers, all supposedly straight from the emails of Five Star Chemicals. I'm only referencing direct cut-n-paste quotes from Five Star emails posted in various forums. Everything from 2oz per 1 gallon to 2oz per 5 gallons (a five-fold difference). Everything from 1oz = 1 teaspoon to 1oz = 2 TABLEspoons (6x difference). Everything from 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons to 1/2 cup per 5 gallons (I think that's an 8x difference). I've found a 30 fold difference from the lowest to the highest recommendations for regular home use.

For what it is worth, I wrote Five Star myself and asked. So far I have received an answer to use 2 TABLEspoons per gallon, which is a little more than 2/3 of a cup for 5 gallons, which is even more than the often quoted highest answer of 1/2 cup per 5 gallons. I have asked them if they can explain these wildly different answers that are all supposedly straight from Five Star but only got a bland response repeating 1 oz per gallon, 1oz = 2 tablespoons, so 10 tablespoons per 5 gallons... I'll let you know if I hear anything more useful in reply.

I know everyone has an opinion on how much to use, I read hundreds of them. But these are all answers quoted from Five Star. So what gives?

 

[Kee]

You have a good point. My theory is to use a minimal amount of PBW with a lot of elbow grease, or a greater amount for areas hard to reach.

 

[bja]

Maybe it just doesn't matter all that much. Use whatever you need to get the job done.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

1.) "P.B.W. has been formulated as a C.I.P. cleaner and is very effective in removing
protein soils found on brew kettles, fermenters, conditioning tanks, filters and all
packaging areas. The concentrations to remove these soils are typically in the
1% range. However, due to soil and water conditions this concentration will
vary. To help in hard water areas P.B.W. has been formulated with enough
chelators to tolerate hard water over 17 grains."

2.) "CIRCULATION CLEANING: Use 1 to 3 ounces per gallon depending on soil load.
Heat to 130° to 180° F for 30 minutes.

CARBON REMOVAL: Use 6 to 8 ounces per gallon of water. Heat to 140 ° F for 4
hours or allow to soak cold overnight."

http://www.fivestarchemicals.com/wp-content/uploads/PBWTech.pdf

The amount needed depends on soil load, soil type, water hardness, and temperature. All of which can vary wildly which thus can explain why recommended concentrations can also vary, wildly.

 

[dogbrew]

I guess I'm curious about a more specific answer because otherwise it is a long trial and error process of continually using less and less until what, you have a couple of bad batches in a row, assume it must have something to do with the low concentration, then gradually increase until the problem is resolved? Or I end up wasting product instead of saving it because I use a concentration so low I might as well just use tap water. That seems inefficient compared to having someone with a degree in chemical engineering who is also an avid brewer saying something intelligent about why the minimum concentration must be X per gallon, and why anything below that would not be effective. And the difference could be a 30-fold increase in cost. I totally agree with using as little as necessary, but I think it's weird that even the manufacturer apparently recommends concentrations that vary by, what, 3000%? The cynical answer is that they just want you to use more so you buy more, but again, I am only comparing answers directly quoted from Five Star Chemicals. So Five Star has provided the lowest recommendation as well as the highest.

 

[dogbrew]

As an example of what I'm really trying to ask, "WHY the wild variations from the manufacturer", I thought maybe they'd say something like the weight to volume is dramatically influenced by humidity so they err on the side of perfectly dry product, but in the real world your results will be much different. Or maybe they'd say that their 2.25oz per 5 gallon packets use a stronger version of PBW than the kind that comes in the white pails. Or that needed concentration is strongly influenced by the hardness of the water and the high concentrations are for a worst-case scenario while the low concentrations must have been from an employee not accounting for a worst case scenario. Something like that. I'm not saying any of those answers are correct, I'm totally making them up, but that's the TYPE of explanation that would start to account for the wild variances in their recommended concentrations. As it is, there is no explanation for why John Johnson from Five Star says use 1 teaspoon per gallon, and Peter Peterson also from Five Star says use 2 tablespoons per gallon, or Tyler Taylor says 1 oz = 1 teaspoon and Debbie Downer says 1 oz = 2 tablespoons. I'm just saying, that's weird. Is there no explanation?

 

[dogbrew]

Thanks Gila, I had read that sheet, which at least gave me some impression as to why the variable concentration, but it didn't help me figure out why one employee says 1oz = 1 teaspoon and another says 1oz = 2 tablespoons. And I should just buy a good scale and then answer some of these questions for myself, but like I said too many times already, I just thought it was weird that even the manufacturer recommends "doses" that are up to 30-fold different.

 

[dogbrew]

oh, and I didn't quote this one already, but the tech sheet says 1%, but an email quoted from Five Star says 0.4% is the recommended concentration for home brewers cleaning kegs and whatnot.. so again, that's using half as much as the tech sheet. Is that email correct, and if so, why is it so different from the tech sheet? I realize it says "typically" but 0.4 vs 1.0 is quite a big difference.

 

[kombat]

And I should just buy a good scale and then answer some of these questions for myself

^This

Don't you already have a small scale anyway, for weighing out your hop additions?

The tub my PBW came in says 1 oz per gallon for normal cleaning, 2 oz per gallon for particularly soiled items. I weighed out 1 oz and discovered it's almost exactly the amount that fits in a small plastic shot glass from the drug store (the semi-clear plastic ones they use to dispense individual pills and medication). So I just keep that little shot glass inside my tub of PBW, and when I need to mix some up, I just dump one scoop into a Home Depot bucket roughly 1/5 filled with hot water.

But 99% of the time, I just use OxyClean Free anyway. The PBW only comes out for the really tough cleaning jobs. It's considerably more expensive.

 

[kh54s10]

Dogbrew, You should never have a bad batch due to how much PBW you use. It is a cleaner. If it is not clean you should SEE or FEEL it and clean some more.

I don't use PBW but instead use Oxyclean. I have good water, I guess, and use a lot less than others suggest. If things are dirtier than normal I use more.

Get it CLEAN using what you need. Then SANITIZE well and you should not get a bad batch.

 

[dogbrew]

no I don't have a scale, my brew supply store weighs all my hops for me, so I've never needed one. After years of brewing and never needing one, it seems lame to buy one just to weigh PBW one time.

I agree with the cleaning versus sanitizing and looking for grime, but there are some things you can't see inside... like the inside of a faucet. I can make guesses as to how clean I have gotten it, but that's not really what I am asking anyway. While on the one hand I appreciate the various opinions on how much to use, I can find hundreds of these opinions with no difficulty, and I can read the instructions on the PBW or the ones on the tech sheet (which are technically different), the thing I don't understand is why even Five Star's employees seem to have wildly different ideas about how much to use. That's all. If anyone should be in agreement as to how much is the right amount, you'd think it would be the manufacturer's customer support people.

 

[bja]

no I don't have a scale, my brew supply store weighs all my hops for me, so I've never needed one. After years of brewing and never needing one, it seems lame to buy one just to weigh PBW one time.

What's lame is weighing PBW in the first place.

 

[kh54s10]

no I don't have a scale, my brew supply store weighs all my hops for me, so I've never needed one. After years of brewing and never needing one, it seems lame to buy one just to weigh PBW one time.

How much do you pay per ounce to get only the hops you need for a recipe?

I buy my hops mostly from Farmhouse Brewing supply in 4oz. or 1lb packs. I always have a lot of varieties (grain also) on hand so if I want to whip up a recipe on short notice, I can, without a trip to the LHBS. I got mine for $19 at Harbor Freight. I use it to weigh the grains also. And other things on occasion.

Also I never weigh my Oxyclean, I usually just eyeball about 1/3 scoop for 5 gallons. It doesn't seem to make any difference if a little less or a little more.

 

[augiedoggy]

Do you weight the amount of laundry soap you use in you wash machine? How about the amount of shampoo or toothpaste you use? I never have... Even that varies with load size , water quality and the amount of cleaning you need it to perform. sometimes I think things just aren't as technical (nor need to be) as people want to believe they are...

In other words dont worry about it... If you have some hard to clean areas use more otherwise use less... you can buy a digital scale for $5... they are worth every penny and completely needed unless you only brew premeasured beer kits or beer concentrate kits...

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

oh, and I didn't quote this one already, but the tech sheet says 1%, but an email quoted from Five Star says 0.4% is the recommended concentration for home brewers cleaning kegs and whatnot.. so again, that's using half as much as the tech sheet. Is that email correct, and if so, why is it so different from the tech sheet? I realize it says "typically" but 0.4 vs 1.0 is quite a big difference.

I guess I just don't get what you are trying to do here?

As with any detergent, it is a judgement call. As said before, do you premeasure your shampoo at each use? Do you shave off only what you need off the bar? Do you measure out your palmolive? Hell even the dishwasher cup has 2 to 3 different levels depending on what you are washing.

What is it you need here? A starting point?

 

[dogbrew]

Well this certainly won't be the first time I was intensely curious about something that everyone else seems to live without knowing.

It's funny you brought up laundry detergent because I was just about to use that analogy. Imagine that you did want to ask Proctor and Gamble how much powdered detergent they recommend, and you sent two identical emails to their laundry soap Support people. The box says 3 cups, is that correct? One employee replied to use 1 cup per load, and another said to use 30 cups per load! Wouldn't that seem strange? 1 cup, 3 cups, 30 cups... with no discussion about how dirty my laundry is?!?! (BTW, of course I do measure the amount I put in... half a capfull like the bottle says.)

Or Pine-Sol. Of course you use what you need and don't think much about it, don't really measure it, etc. But you know the Pine-Sol people have some very specific stats on all this. So you ask them. If the bottle said use 2 capfulls in a gallon, one customer support person said that 1 capful per gallon is ideal for general cleaning, but another said 30 capfulls per gallon... One capfull is a lot different than 30 capfulls... That'd seem pretty strange, right?

Toothpaste? If your kid was using 30 times the amount of toothpaste that you were, wouldn't you think something was strange here. If your kid is a difficult smart-alek so you asked their customer support people what they recommend and one employee said to use one pea-size dollop and another said to use 30 pea-sized dollops, that'd strike you as strange, no?

But that's apparently exactly what we get when asking about PBW. I can use what I have always used (1/2 cup per 5 gal) but for even their own customer support people to give answers that are easily 30-times different from one another is just a weird thing.

 

[Brettomomyces]

So somebody says to use 1oz per gallon and someone else is saying 30oz? Like Gila mentioned before, it's definitely a judgement call. I use a stronger dose when cleaning my kegs and a lighter dose for wiping down my kettles, stronger dose doing a plate chiller recirculation, medium dose cleaning out my beer lines...never really thought about it. But then again I never measure spices or salt and usually just eyeball when I make cocktails...I'm a chef and have a good eye for it.

 

[dogbrew]

Nope, don't need a starting point, just think it is very odd. I've been using PBW for years, I just think it is very odd that even their own customer support people give recommendations that are easily 30-fold different from one another. Do you use 30 times more shampoo than you wife per washing? Even if you have little hair and she has lots, I'm sure she's not using 30 times more shampoo. If you thought she was wasting shampoo and wrote the shampoo people just out of curiosity and one customer support person said 1 tablespoon while another said 30 tablespoons, wouldn't that seem strange?

If nobody knows why there is such a huge difference from the manufacturer, that's fine, consider the discussion closed. I just thought maybe someone had a good explanation for why even Five Star is at odds with itself.

 

[Brettomomyces]

Maybe someone is just trying to drum up PBW sales?...

Kidding aside, it may be a lack of education on their end.

 

[dogbrew]

So somebody says to use 1oz per gallon and someone else is saying 30oz?

Yes, as mentioned in the opening post, the Five Star people recommend PBW concentrations that are easily 30x different from one another with no special circumstances mentioned. That's what's odd.

 

[wardens355]

Nope, don't need a starting point, just think it is very odd. I've been using PBW for years, I just think it is very odd that even their own customer support people give recommendations that are easily 30-fold different from one another. Do you use 30 times more shampoo than you wife per washing? Even if you have little hair and she has lots, I'm sure she's not using 30 times more shampoo. If you thought she was wasting shampoo and wrote the shampoo people just out of curiosity and one customer support person said 1 tablespoon while another said 30 tablespoons, wouldn't that seem strange?

If nobody knows why there is such a huge difference from the manufacturer, that's fine, consider the discussion closed. I just thought maybe someone had a good explanation for why even Five Star is at odds with itself.

Have you gotten back with them to discuss/clarify the discrepancy between the two suggestions you got?

 

[bja]

Nope, don't need a starting point, just think it is very odd. I've been using PBW for years, I just think it is very odd that even their own customer support people give recommendations that are easily 30-fold different from one another. Do you use 30 times more shampoo than you wife per washing? Even if you have little hair and she has lots, I'm sure she's not using 30 times more shampoo. If you thought she was wasting shampoo and wrote the shampoo people just out of curiosity and one customer support person said 1 tablespoon while another said 30 tablespoons, wouldn't that seem strange?

If nobody knows why there is such a huge difference from the manufacturer, that's fine, consider the discussion closed. I just thought maybe someone had a good explanation for why even Five Star is at odds with itself.

This is just ridiculous...

 

[MaxStout]

The cynic in me says their various answers have more to do with the company's hope that you will use more. Use more, buy more.

For about the price of 1lb. of PBW I can buy two 6lb. pails of Sun Oxy at Wallyworld. I have used both, and cannot tell the difference in cleaning performance between the two.

 

[dogbrew]

This is just ridiculous...

If you think the discussion is ridiculous, there are plenty of other ones to read. Why so negative? I'm not sure why this seems like it is touching a nerve or something... everyone else brought up shampoo and laundry soap and toothpaste, so I'm just replying to their observations. If you were using 30 times more cleaner than you needed to, wouldn't that be worth knowing? Imagine buying one bottle versus 30 bottles... that's a huge difference.

Yes, I did reply to them and ask why the discrepancy, and quoted the various emails from Five Star that are already online, but did not get any further response from them so far.

 

[kh54s10]

I wonder if the one who suggested 30 times more that the other might have been a salesman filling in for the customer service person??????

 

[wardens355]

I think you're looking too hard for people's bonehead mistakes. Everyone makes them. Look at this post from the Brewing Network from a Five Star guy where he lays out a 0.4 - 2.0 oz per gallon usage for homebrewing, and gives an approximate weight-to-volume ratio.

Five Star Guy

It's designed for CIP, and they recommend up to 6-8 oz per gallon for carbon removal. So maybe there were some miscommunications at some point regarding homebrewing vs commercial use. So if you were just starting to use PBW you would use the 0.4 oz per gallon dosage and adjust to suit your needs/cleaning practices. I guess I really don't see the reason for you to be bad-mouthing the Five Star people over this...

 

[Brettomomyces]

It's also not a straight comparison to toothpaste or laundry soap, because the different levels of soil you may have to tackle in a brewing setting vary wildly. You're going to generally use the same amount of toothpaste, shampoo, soap all the time (if not you may have hygiene issues), but PBW may have to be used on all sorts of cleaning tasks like carbon removal that was already mentioned.

 

[dk21]

I wouldn't rule out that water chemistry comes into play as well. I generally use 0.5 oz per gallon for light cleaning, but use the suggested 0.75 oz per gallon for kegs, fermenters, my boil kettle, and other items coming in direct contact with my beer. It seems to work better for me. Oddly, on stainless, if I don't use the recommended amount, I generally end up with a some kind of water spotting or mineral deposit line around the water line.

Anyway, just see what works for you. If it's not cleaning well at 0.4 or 0.5 oz per gallon, just use a little more until it produces the desired results.

 

[augiedoggy]

It's also not a straight comparison to toothpaste or laundry soap, because the different levels of soil you may have to tackle in a brewing setting vary wildly. You're going to generally use the same amount of toothpaste, shampoo, soap all the time (if not you may have hygiene issues), but PBW may have to be used on all sorts of cleaning tasks like carbon removal that was already mentioned.

not true with launrdy detergent... read the bottle... the amount your supposed to use is dependent on how dirty whatever your washing is... same thing with shampoo or toothpaste really .... a guy going bald with thin hair will need less shampoo than a woman with thick oily hair. or say a mehcanic who gets oil in his hair will likely wash his hair with more shapoo (without measuring it out) Same with someone missing half their teeth (although I agree that person would use a consistent amount... Depending on the size of your brewery and application CIP vs soaking something and rinsing and how soon after brewing you clean... the amount of pbw can vary and still do the job fine...

if it really is 30x times different though I would think itrs more of exactly what was mentioned ...Some pbw guys are trying to sell more product... same reason if you make coffee by using the directions on the can its way too strong for most peoples liking...

 

[WayFrae]

The cynic in me says their various answers have more to do with the company's hope that you will use more. Use more, buy more.

For about the price of 1lb. of PBW I can buy two 6lb. pails of Sun Oxy at Wallyworld. I have used both, and cannot tell the difference in cleaning performance between the two.

Really? A pound usually costs me around $4. 6 pound pails are only $2 each?