Helped a buddy do his first brew day yesterday. I have been brewing for over 2 years - mostly extract with a few BIAB's under my belt. Had to bring over all my gear as all he had were ingredients and a primary fermenter. Anyway, his kit (can't recall its name) did not list how many POUNDS of grain nor how many ounces of hops (nor the hop variety). My GUESS is we had about 12-13 pounds of grain and about 3 ounces of hops total. Though, that's a guess. Anyway, I started with about 5 gallons in kettle, added the grains and mashed. Mash temp was a little warm - say about 155-157. Odd thing is we added the grains when the water read 156ish and mixed them up good, threw on a bunch of blankets and let it do its thing. 30 minutes later I checked the temp and it had RISEN. Anyway - so the rest of the mash we let it go with the lid off and tried to get it back to the low 150's. In any event, after the iodine test passed, we sparged to get 6 gallons of pre-boil volume and did the boil. Chilled the wort chiller, aerated with a diffusion stone, pitched rehydrated US-05 before taking our OG of 1.061. However, about 30 or so minutes after pitching, his 6 gallon carboy (we netted about 4.5 gallons of liquid) had started to separate and there was about 1.5 gallons worth of protein, hop sludge, I'm not sure what all, but it did not look like anything he'd want to end up in the bottling bucket. We did NOT dump the entire kettle's contents into the primary - we stopped when it got pretty nasty at the base of the kettle. We also poured through a strainer to help attain a clearer liquid would end up in the primary. I never have that much sludge in a primary - so what the heck did we do wrong? I know he had fun learning, but I'll be bummed if "his" first beer turns out nasty and it's 'cause of something I didn't do right. Just trying to learn. LIke I said, I've done a number of BIAB's before and never had this much sludge separate out in the primary. Thanks - and sorry for the lengthy post.
Why so much sludge in my BIAB?
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Pretty common for me. I just did a big hoppy one yesterday and have a huge trub at bottom of mine.
Not really sure if I'm doing something wrong, but I've had it on most of my beers, and they seem to come out just fine. I cold crash before packaging.
Not really sure if I'm doing something wrong, but I've had it on most of my beers, and they seem to come out just fine. I cold crash before packaging.
Without knowing anything about the ingredients, it's hard to predict anything. Maybe it was 50% wheat. Did you use any kettle finings like Irish Moss or Whirlfloc? In any case, there's no problem fermenting on trub.
thunderwagn
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Doesn't sound that unreasonable to me. I bump my batches up to account for trub loss. I've also used several different types of bags and each produces more or less trub depending. With my Wilser bag, I've had to recalculate my profile settings to what I'm getting now.
I know you said it was a kit, but could you not have weighed out the ingredients? Run everything thru brewing software and a calculator like priceless? I know it was his 1st, but if using your equipt, the brewing profiles should still be the same yes?
I account for trub in my settings and add it all to the fermentor. That's the way I have it set up and I know what I'll leave behind and have at bottling.
I know you said it was a kit, but could you not have weighed out the ingredients? Run everything thru brewing software and a calculator like priceless? I know it was his 1st, but if using your equipt, the brewing profiles should still be the same yes?
I account for trub in my settings and add it all to the fermentor. That's the way I have it set up and I know what I'll leave behind and have at bottling.
It was an IPA kit, so I'm GUESSING it was mostly all 2-row and maybe a pound of caramel 60 or something. The other guy who was with us, who has brewed for longer than me (and has all-grain experience, but none with BIAB) also thought it was mostly all, if not entirely, 2-row given the smell and taste of the grain, so I doubt there was any wheat in there.
Yeah, I guess I could have measured the grains on a bathroom scale or something.
I just followed the same process I had before and never ended with NEAR that much trub, but it might have been more grain than I thought.
More grain = more trub?
Never thought of the type of bag impacting trub...
Just sucks if he ends with only like 2.5 gallons of beer due to the volume of trub.
Oh well - if he learned, had fun and we created something he can stomach, then I'm happy...
Yeah, I guess I could have measured the grains on a bathroom scale or something.
I just followed the same process I had before and never ended with NEAR that much trub, but it might have been more grain than I thought.
More grain = more trub?
Never thought of the type of bag impacting trub...
Just sucks if he ends with only like 2.5 gallons of beer due to the volume of trub.
Oh well - if he learned, had fun and we created something he can stomach, then I'm happy...
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The mesh of the bag makes a big difference, as does the fineness of the crush. I find that what trub transferred into the carboy ends up packing down quite a bit within the first 24 hours.
Personally, I brew 11 liters of wort for a 10 liter batch. Most of the heavy trub and hop particles are left in the bottom of the kettle after transferring the wort. I still end up with about .6 to .8 liters of trub and yeast in the bottom of the carboy at bottling and plan on that.
edit: Also a clarifier, such as Irish moss helps to coagulate and settle the proteins so that much gets left in the trub.
Personally, I brew 11 liters of wort for a 10 liter batch. Most of the heavy trub and hop particles are left in the bottom of the kettle after transferring the wort. I still end up with about .6 to .8 liters of trub and yeast in the bottom of the carboy at bottling and plan on that.
edit: Also a clarifier, such as Irish moss helps to coagulate and settle the proteins so that much gets left in the trub.
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MadHomebrewer
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Could be a number of things. It could be the bag that was used. The crush of the grain. Length of time to chill the wort to get those proteins to drop out.
I've found that right after going into fermenter, I have a very large trub section. Then in fermentation everything goes wild and it's all mixed together. Than post fermentation it drops much lower and more compact. Then I cold crash and it drops even more.
That said, I shoot for 6g into fermenter, sludge and all. By the end I hit pretty close to 5g of clean beer.
Definitely recommend the cold crash though, if at all possible. Or leave in primary an extra week. I didn't on one of mine and really regretted it.
That said, I shoot for 6g into fermenter, sludge and all. By the end I hit pretty close to 5g of clean beer.
Definitely recommend the cold crash though, if at all possible. Or leave in primary an extra week. I didn't on one of mine and really regretted it.
He doesn't have access to a cold crash, nor does he have a secondary, so I just told him to let it sit in the primary for 2 weeks, then dry hop in the primary for a third. Then bottle 7 days after dry hopping. Good news is he just texted me a pic and already the sludge seems reduced by quite a bit and his yeast are doing their thing, so I think we did at least okay 
He doesn't have access to a cold crash, nor does he have a secondary, so I just told him to let it sit in the primary for 2 weeks, then dry hop in the primary for a third. Then bottle 7 days after dry hopping. Good news is he just texted me a pic and already the sludge seems reduced by quite a bit and his yeast are doing their thing, so I think we did at least okay
He'll be totally fine. Maybe only get 4 or 4.5G but will have no impact upon the beer quality, from my experience.
I might wait 4 weeks since he can't cold crash, but that's asking for a lot of patience.
Yeah a bit of trub isn't going to hurt anything. When I started all grain it was with BIAB and when I switched to batch sparging I noticed a huge drop in the amount of trub that I was getting. I think because of the finer crush and mesh of the bag...either way, the beer was good.
We did a fly sparge to get to our pre-boil volume. Has anyone a noticed in trub amount between fly and batch sparging? In any event, yeah - he'll get beer and hopefully he'll enjoy it enough to want to do it again!
MadHomebrewer
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I biab with a keggle and burner and what I have been thinking I would like to recirculate my wort to produce a clearer wort. Some posts on hear about using a $20 pump on Amazon. I'm also looking for ways to cut down on the extra trub with biab.
Why? For most of us the goal is clear beer. Clear wort is not necessary to get clear beer. I fear you will be adding money and gaining nothing for it.:rockin:
brewprint
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I always account for a .5 gallon trub loss. Usually it seems more than that but usually I think my batches are closer to 6 gallons than 5.5. I just dump everything into the primary. I do however use hop bags so that cuts down on the amount of trub significantly. Especially when doing IPAs.
All the trub eventually settles down at the bottom anyway so it's easy to avoid putting that in the keg.
All the trub eventually settles down at the bottom anyway so it's easy to avoid putting that in the keg.
I know stuff settles out, but the day of the brew day the sheer volume of trub at the bottom of his fermenter - 30 minutes after pitching - was noticeably higher than any other BIAB day I had done. But, as I had posted the other day, it has settled out and compacted nicely since then, so I guess all is well. It was just the initial shock of how much trub there was compared to my other BIAB sessions. I think, however, next time I might aim for 6.5 pre-boil gallons instead of 6.
brewprint
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Yeah that's what I do. It's always a 5.5 batch. Most of the time efficiency is good enough that I don't add grain.
I've actually never seen what my trub looks like. I'm strictly a plastic bucket guy.
I guess this can be debated and probably should be tested to be put to bed but I do not want to boil all of that stuff. Beer making over the centuries has evolved to produce rather clean wort into the boil kettle. BIAB is re-writing this purely for convenience sake. People go along with this because it is homebrewing and eh, it will be fine.
It is probably fine but I try to limit the sediment into the boil kettle. I want to boil the wort, not the mash.
theseeker4
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My BIAB beer is crystal clear, even dry-hopped batches, and I did nothing other than using Irish Moss and keeping bottles in the fridge for a while. Definitely didn't worry about how clear my wort was. Myself, and many other home brewers who produce very clear beer from very cloudy wort, prove that clear wort is not necessary for clear beer. Not sure what debate there still is. If having clear wort works for you, great. Whether or not clear beer can be made from cloudy wort though isn't really a debate, it clearly (pun intended) can be done. BIABer's aren't sacrificing clarity for convenience at all, since equal clarity can be achieved either way.
Mer-man
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With BIAB, the increased sludge can be correlated with the turbidity of the wort -- agree?
There's a 2006 scholarly article called "Influence of Lauter Turbidity on Wort Composition, Fermentation Performance and Beer Quality – A Review".
There is evidence that clear wort is most important to product stability. Thus, it is a key concern for packaging breweries.
There is evidence on both sides regarding flavor quality, so that is unclear. But there are studies (at least 2 in the article) that found the turbid wort option as the best tasting.
So if you are a homebrewer or a brewpub, turbid wort is probably not a concern. If you are packaging and need product stability over time, then clear wort plus a yeast nutrient is best. And it will minimize your fermenter trub.
There's a 2006 scholarly article called "Influence of Lauter Turbidity on Wort Composition, Fermentation Performance and Beer Quality – A Review".
There is evidence that clear wort is most important to product stability. Thus, it is a key concern for packaging breweries.
There is evidence on both sides regarding flavor quality, so that is unclear. But there are studies (at least 2 in the article) that found the turbid wort option as the best tasting.
So if you are a homebrewer or a brewpub, turbid wort is probably not a concern. If you are packaging and need product stability over time, then clear wort plus a yeast nutrient is best. And it will minimize your fermenter trub.
I think you are missing my point. My concern is boiling a lot of mash/grain particles, not if my glass of beer is clear.
Talk to any brewer that is trained or does this professionally and tell them you are going to let a lot of "stuff" into the boil kettle from the mash tun. How do you think they are going to react?
So if you as a homebrewer want to go against century old brewing methods, do you have any evidence beyond it is convenient? Because that is all I can see.
Not trying to be an a** here, but this has always been a weakness of BIAB imho.
You must be really concerned about people who do decoctions because they take a portion of the mash with lots of the grain in it including the husks and boil that.
As long as the pH is in the proper range, boiling the wort with grain particles is not a bad process.
I think your point had been missed because it hasn't been clearly stated. What is your concern with cloudy wort other than you just don't like it? Astringency from tannin extraction? Something else? Also not trying to be a horse's patoot.
Concerning evidence that cloudy wort from BIAB doesn't impact the quality of the beer produced, you can look at the plethora of award winners in the various BJCP sanctioned competitions. Many BIABers will be found in the ranks of the medal holders.
To me, cloudy wort vs a lot of sediment is the heart of the issue. I have made some BIAB beers where the sediment was very thick in the boil kettle using a Wilser bag. Stuff just gets through at an alarming rate imho. Way more than just cloudy.
This gets minimized by a lot of folks here. Maybe it is not an issue but just seems like "sediment" does not belong in the boil kettle. Like the OP, coming from a cooler setup which made virtually clear wort, having all this gunk boiled for 90min and sitting the wort for 2-3 weeks is alarming. But maybe it is a myth...
Sounds like a great topic for an Exbeeriment.
This gets minimized by a lot of folks here. Maybe it is not an issue but just seems like "sediment" does not belong in the boil kettle. Like the OP, coming from a cooler setup which made virtually clear wort, having all this gunk boiled for 90min and sitting the wort for 2-3 weeks is alarming. But maybe it is a myth...
Sounds like a great topic for an Exbeeriment.
theseeker4
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Sounds like the best arguments that you have presented are "it seems like it shouldn't be done" and "that isn't the way it's always been done." Contrast that with BIAB-made beer that has won competitions, and I am not sure you even know why you are concerned......You are stating you shouldn't do something for a reason that admittedly "maybe is a myth." Not sure where your concern is coming from, other than an appeal to dogma that has been demonstrated to not be necessary for quality beer....
I get that you want to defend BIAB so I will let it go. This does seem like a great experiment though - brew a light lager on a clear wort system and a BIAB system with heavy sediment and compare the two after similar fermentation conditions.
I don't care much about beer competitions, so I admit I do not know how many BIAB brewers have won medals or what styles were brewed.
I don't care much about beer competitions, so I admit I do not know how many BIAB brewers have won medals or what styles were brewed.
I've kind of already done what you're talking about, but with a delicate blonde. This style was intentionally chosen to highlight any differences in the methods. Results were that both beers were enjoyed equally.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=512919
And for what it's worth, my BIAB beer clobbered my coworker's at the competition we entered (mentioned in the linked thread above).
We are getting ready to repeat this experiment next month with a Belgian Tripel. Three batches, two will be BIAB, the other will be made on the same fly sparge 3 vessel system that produces really clear wort.
Hey thanks for sharing. Positive results are good to see.
