Why so much sludge in my BIAB?

[balrog]

Speaking of Exbeeriment, see also Brulosophy's on trub vs little trub into fermentor

http://brulosophy.com/2014/06/02/the-great-trub-exbeeriment-results-are-in/

 

[Bassman2003]

I just went the Brulosophy website and they have a Vorlauf exbeeriment which pits grain vs less grain BIAB to test the effect of grain particle amounts in the boil kettle. Exactly the focus of this thread.

http://brulosophy.com/2016/02/22/th...-a-difference-exbeeriment-results/#more-50253

 

[Aristotelian]

To me, cloudy wort vs a lot of sediment is the heart of the issue. I have made some BIAB beers where the sediment was very thick in the boil kettle using a Wilser bag. Stuff just gets through at an alarming rate imho. Way more than just cloudy.

This gets minimized by a lot of folks here. Maybe it is not an issue but just seems like "sediment" does not belong in the boil kettle. Like the OP, coming from a cooler setup which made virtually clear wort, having all this gunk boiled for 90min and sitting the wort for 2-3 weeks is alarming. But maybe it is a myth...

Sounds like a great topic for an Exbeeriment.

He actually just did one that is relevant here. He did a blind test with vorlaufed vs non-vorlaufed wort. The vorlaufed wort was indeed clearer, but a large majority of the tasters preferred the taste of the cloudy beer.

http://brulosophy.com/2016/02/22/th...oes-it-make-a-difference-exbeeriment-results/

This makes some sense to me. In the extreme example, grocery store beer is crystal clear but has no flavor. The question is where you draw the line. If you want to go for clarity, that is fine, but there may be good reasons to accept some cloudiness in your wort. Myself, I am interested in whatever is cheapest and easiest, so BIAB hits the mark for me.

Also, I think you could easily adjust a BIAB process to cut down on trub in the boil, although it would add a step. Following mash, allow 20 minutes for trub to settle. Then rack the clear wort on top into another vessel (perhaps use your fermenter for this). Dump the trub, then boil the clear wort.

 

[Bassman2003]

Yes, I run a recirc through my hop sack while the wort is coming up to boil to take sediment out. I get better hot break foam when the sediment is low.

But I do not think clarity limits flavor. Plenty of world class beers are clear, wort and final product.

 

[doug293cz]

Yes, I run a recirc through my hop sack while the wort is coming up to boil to take sediment out. I get better hot break foam when the sediment is low.

But I do not think clarity limits flavor. Plenty of world class beers are clear, wort and final product.

So, how do you know what the wort looks like for these world class beers?

When I first fill my fermenter it usually looks like 1/3 - 1/2 trub. It all settles down to about a 1" layer on the bottom after cold crashing. I use gelatin in primary, and pour crystal clear beer from the keg. Clear wort doesn't guarantee clear beer, nor does cloudy wort prevent clear beer. From what I can tell there is no correlation between wort clarity and beer clarity.

Brew on

 

[Bassman2003]

To come back to this again, I am not concerned with finished beer clarity and BIAB. That seems to be the default issue for most but as you state, stuff settles out. The end product will be clear.

I know their wort does not look like BIAB wort because the breweries do not use the BIAB technique. Call it dogma or call it old ways but I would say the majority of great beers of the world do not carry a lot if any mash particulate into the boil kettle. It's just not how folks have brewed up until BIAB.

Weather or not that matters might be up for debate, but the brewer who did the exbeeriment noted a more grainy taste to his non-vorlaufed example.

I agree, Brew on!

 

[ruascott]

How much do you biab brewers target for your fermenter, assuming you want 5G finished product?

I had been doing 5.5, but I think 6 is really what I should be doing. Seems most have a least 1G trub.

 

[TexasWine]

How much do you biab brewers target for your fermenter, assuming you want 5G finished product?

I had been doing 5.5, but I think 6 is really what I should be doing. Seems most have a least 1G trub.

I do 6 gallons to the fermenter, but only because I dump everything from the kettle into the fermenter. Even doing that, I leave behind good clear beer in the fermenter.

 

[balrog]

I target 5.25 into fermenter (fermentor?) and pour through one of these double strainers laid atop the bucket. It only keeps out 1-2 cups of sludgish-mostly-hop debris and I really have never worried about it.

I do wonder sometimes at measuring OG as the break material and such seriously start layering in the hydrometer jar if i leave it sit too long while I clean gear before measuring.

 

[pshankstar]

I have to say after brewing my first BIAB (small 3 gallon test batch) there seems to be a lot more trub in there then when I do extract. But I did notice that is was starting to settle when I let it sit for a little bit before I pitched the yeast. Then I shook the heck out of it mixing it all back up to oxygenate the wort and pitched the yeast and now it just looks thick and cloudy. This is probably b/c the yeast came right from the collection ball dump from my other beer. With that being said, it started to ferment (aggressive airlock activity) in less than one hour after pitching it. Its so aggressive I needed to replace the airlock with a blowoff tube (first time). But then again I filled the 3 gallon carboy pretty full...

 

[doug293cz]

I have to say after brewing my first BIAB (small 3 gallon test batch) there seems to be a lot more trub in there then when I do extract. But I did notice that is was starting to settle when I let it sit for a little bit before I pitched the yeast. Then I shook the heck out of it mixing it all back up to oxygenate the wort and pitched the yeast and now it just looks thick and cloudy. This is probably b/c the yeast came right from the collection ball dump from my other beer. With that being said, it started to ferment (aggressive airlock activity) in less than one hour after pitching it. Its so aggressive I needed to replace the airlock with a blowoff tube (first time). But then again I filled the 3 gallon carboy pretty full...

All the trub should settle when fermentation is complete. Nothing to worry about.

Brew on

 

[pshankstar]

All the trub should settle when fermentation is complete. Nothing to worry about.

Brew on

Agreed, nothing to worry about! But here is what I experienced.

Here is a picture of the trub settling. The brew looks nice, well the upper 1/3rd. LOL It looks like a lot, but I know it will settle out and not take up half of my carboy.



Here is a picture of the wort after I shook the heck out of it after pitching the yeast. This was a little more than an hour after pitching the yeast.



Woke up to see the airlock like this at 8am (after getting my oldest off to school). Keep in mind at 1:30am the krausen was not like this. Otherwise I wouldn't have been able to sleep thinking I would wake up to a wort covered basement. Since then I ran out to the LHBS to get some extra tubing and cap for a blow off tube.

 

[AK7007]

There is evidence that clear wort is most important to product stability. Thus, it is a key concern for packaging breweries.
There is evidence on both sides regarding flavor quality, so that is unclear. But there are studies (at least 2 in the article) that found the turbid wort option as the best tasting.

So if you are a homebrewer or a brewpub, turbid wort is probably not a concern. If you are packaging and need product stability over time, then clear wort plus a yeast nutrient is best. And it will minimize your fermenter trub.

This is why I want to smack people who bleat about what professional brewers do, or that this process has been around since whatever person in Germany first spat into a kettle back in 1700, so we better follow that process.

We very commonly have different goals than professional brewers, yet people want to base their home process upon the goals of pro brewers. On top of that, the pros that are deciding on one process or another usually have nothing more than an undergraduate education plus technical training that is largely based upon dogma. Many don't know why they do what they do. They know that somebody told them doing something a certain way for reason XYX, but don't actually know the mechanism. For lots of these processes, we don't understand the chemistry or biology, we just know that when I spin around three times clockwise while adding dry hops on Tuesday, sensory panels like my beer more.

Match your process to the goals that you have for your beer and base it as much as you can upon known biology or chemistry.

 

[ruascott]

Agreed, nothing to worry about! But here is what I experienced.

Here is a picture of the trub settling. The brew looks nice, well the upper 1/3rd. LOL It looks like a lot, but I know it will settle out and not take up half of my carboy.

View attachment 343389

Here is a picture of the wort after I shook the heck out of it after pitching the yeast. This was a little more than an hour after pitching the yeast.

View attachment 343390

Woke up to see the airlock like this at 8am (after getting my oldest off to school). Keep in mind at 1:30am the krausen was not like this. Otherwise I wouldn't have been able to sleep thinking I would wake up to a wort covered basement. Since then I ran out to the LHBS to get some extra tubing and cap for a blow off tube.

View attachment 343391

Wow, that is a LOT.

What kind of bag did you use?

 

[pshankstar]

Wow, that is a LOT.



What kind of bag did you use?

That's what I thought too but given time it should compact nicely. I used a Wilser bag. I crushed the grains really fine since I was doing a BIAB. There were only 2oz of hops during the boil. Pretty much everything from the pot went in.

 

[slym2none]

Does a Wilser bag really "filter" out more stuff than a regular bag? I am using the $4 one from my LHBS, and this last batch had even more trub than the last one. Good thing I have two FVs, as there is no way I could let this go as it is. I had to transfer these last two batches to a "secondary" before cold-crashing!

I am really going to have to stay away from 7-8# grain bills for my 2.5G batches until I get better handle on this. No more DIPAs for a while!

 

[thunderwagn]

Does a Wilser bag really "filter" out more stuff than a regular bag? I am using the $4 one from my LHBS, and this last batch had even more trub than the last one. Good thing I have two FVs, as there is no way I could let this go as it is. I had to transfer these last two batches to a "secondary" before cold-crashing!

I am really going to have to stay away from 7-8# grain bills for my 2.5G batches until I get better handle on this. No more DIPAs for a while!

Yes, IMO it really does. I've got nothing against trub, and pour my entire kettle into the fermentor, but to me there is a very noticeable difference. I spent more on sh*tty bags than I would have just buying a Wilser right off the bat. It's for sure not a regrettable purchase. They're also made to properly fit your kettle.

 

[slym2none]

Sweet, thanks for the info. My bag is starting to come apart at one of the seams, so I will be looking for a replacement soon. WilserBrewing will be getting my money at that point.

 

[pshankstar]

I brewed this small test batch IPA (3 gallons first BIAB attempt) on 3/9/16. If you scroll up you can see the sludge/sediment/trub/whatever you call it making the wort look so cloudy and what not. Well here is a picture of it today just minutes ago (6 days in). It is starting to clear up and all. There is a lot of sediment on the bottom. Reason being is, 2 oz of hops during the boil for a 3 gallon batch (everything from the brew pot went in) and the yeast that was used is from my FastFerment collection ball. I poured off the liquid but dumped in all of the yeast and trub. Which by the way, fermentation took off like a rocket doing it this way!

I will rack this beer over to a secondary around the 2 week mark and dry hop it with another ounce of hops. The dry hops will be in a Wilser Hop Sock, to help reduce the sediment and what not.

Anyways, I thought it would be nice for people to see the transformation in 6 days.

 

[Bassman2003]

This is why I want to smack people who bleat about what professional brewers do, or that this process has been around since whatever person in Germany first spat into a kettle back in 1700, so we better follow that process.

We very commonly have different goals than professional brewers, yet people want to base their home process upon the goals of pro brewers. On top of that, the pros that are deciding on one process or another usually have nothing more than an undergraduate education plus technical training that is largely based upon dogma. Many don't know why they do what they do. They know that somebody told them doing something a certain way for reason XYX, but don't actually know the mechanism. For lots of these processes, we don't understand the chemistry or biology, we just know that when I spin around three times clockwise while adding dry hops on Tuesday, sensory panels like my beer more.

Match your process to the goals that you have for your beer and base it as much as you can upon known biology or chemistry.

Well for me, it is more about listening to people who know what they are talking about from study and firsthand experience. "Pro brewer" is too vague of a term these days. Somebody with a degree from UC Davis or Weihenstephan who brews professionally is who I would want to listen to.

I would be interested in showing the photos above to one of these brewers and asking them about any harmful effects related to boiling all of this mash sediment. I know we all make BIAB beer so the results don't seem that bad but I am not going to argue with Dan Gordon if he says to not do this because of...

I look to the Germans because they have picked apart the entire brewing process from a technical point of view. And they tend to stress final quality over everything else.

But time marches on and new things are learned. I would have never guessed no chill would produce a good lager but people are doing it.

 

[DurtyChemist]

I get that you want to defend BIAB so I will let it go. This does seem like a great experiment though - brew a light lager on a clear wort system and a BIAB system with heavy sediment and compare the two after similar fermentation conditions.

I don't care much about beer competitions, so I admit I do not know how many BIAB brewers have won medals or what styles were brewed.

http://brulosophy.com/2015/03/22/the-impact-of-kettle-trub-part-2-exbeeriment-results/