Why not make a starter with dry yeast?

[completegeek]

I've searched the forums and read a lot of different opinions on the subject. The main consensus I have seen is make a starter with liquid, rehydrate only with dry.

I realize that dry yeast should already have the cell count you need to ferment a 5 gallon batch, but I haven't read anything that gives me a good enough reason why it would be a bad thing to do a starter with dry yeast.

The more yeast the better right? I did an experiment with an extra package of Notthingham I had just because I was curious. Within 30 minutes I had a massive krausen. I could still see clumps of yeast swirling around. Fast forward to this morning, the bottle is completely saturated and looks incredibly healthy.

So is it actually harmful to do a yeast starter with dry yeast, or is it just unnecessary?

 

[Revvy]

So is it actually harmful to do a yeast starter with dry yeast, or is it just unnecessary?

That's the answer.

 

[Rundownhouse]

The more yeast the better right?

Overpitching will have an effect on your beer, albeit a different effect than underpitching. If you want a perfect fermentation, pitch the perfect amount of yeast.

 

[completegeek]

Overpitching will have an effect on your beer, albeit a different effect than underpitching. If you want a perfect fermentation, pitch the perfect amount of yeast.

What effect will it have?

 

[Revvy]

Actually I've found that worries aboout overpitching are pretty unfounded. It's probably even a carry over from the yeast phobias of the "bad ole days" of brewing, where people believed in stuff like autolysis and things like that. Underptiching can result in off flavors from the yeast struggling, but pitching a large amount of healthy yeast makes for quick and clean fermentations. Many have argued that to reach a level where overpitching cause harm (if any) is nearly impossible to reach anyway.

And if you give our yeasty buddies plenty of time to do their thing, clean up and flocculate out of solution then you won't have any "yeast bite" or anything one might complain about.

If you look at some of the pitch rates on Mr Malty, you'll see a huge amount of yeast being recommended.

Others may argue differently (though I hear it less and less these days- almost noone talks about over pitching any more)-I'd much more worry about under than over pitching.

 

[completegeek]

Thanks Revvy. That seems reasonable. I usually subscribe to the "if it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing philosophy" so a yeast starter with dry yeast didn't seem like overkill to me.

As long as it wont hurt my precious beer then I think I'll continue with my dry yeast starters.

 

[Rundownhouse]

I was under the impression that certain flavors are the result of yeast growth, so if you pitch so much yeast that there isn't any population growth, you won't get the formation of certain esters/phenols that are characteristic of particular yeast strains.

Also, are we talking brewing beer or homebrewing specifically? I know commercial breweries go to lengths to make sure they pitch a specific amount of yeast and end up dumping hundreds to thousands of pounds of yeast down the drain on a daily basis. It makes sense to me that there's a "best practice" out there, but whether that's "pitch X amount to neither under- nor overpitch," or, "pitch X amount, which may be too much but insures you don't underpitch," I'm not sure.

Finally, this link has a lot of discussion about overpitching.

 

[Revvy]

Thanks Revvy. That seems reasonable. I usually subscribe to the "if it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing philosophy" so a yeast starter with dry yeast didn't seem like overkill to me.

As long as it wont hurt my precious beer then I think I'll continue with my dry yeast starters.

Well, I don't know, although I said it was usually difficult to reach the range where overpitching yeast MAY be detrimental, but if there was a way to do it, to reach that level, making a starter with dry yeast MAY be one of those ways to do it....

But ultimately if you've had success with making starters with dry, and haven't noticed any of those off flavors, then who's to say you're doing something wrong.

If you're pverpitching for example with a clean/neutral yeast such as us-05 in a strong flavored ale (Like a stout) I think you'd not notice the results of overpitching as much as if you did it in a honeyblonde maybe...or were using a strain of yeast that produced a lot of esters and such...

 

[completegeek]

I brewed an IPA Saturday and went through the trouble of making a starter with WLP001 and I am pretty sure it was DOA. It wasn't shipped till Friday and arrived on Tuesday. I'm sure 4 days at 110+ degrees wasn't the best of conditions for my poor yeasties. When I cold crashed there wasn't any more yeast than was in the vial when I started.

I freaked a bit and pitched some Nottingham about a day later. It's all I had.

 

[wonderbread23]

It'll make sense if you want to ensure the viability of your yeast packet or if it is really old. I sometimes do it will really big beers because I feel like a good healthy starter can help the ferment get off to a running start.

I think there are some legit warnings about over-pitching, especially if you are shooting for a very esthery beer (think English styles and Belgians) where a lot of the flavor compounds are derived during the initial yeast growth stage. I think in reality though, it would be tough to do this on a homebrew scale short of maybe throwing a light session beer on top of a massive yeast cake.

 

[carnevoodoo]

My input on this is as such:

If you overpitch, you are giving too much yeast not enough food. This can cause overattenuation, it can force mutation, and it will likely lower any esters you might actually want from the yeast (yes, even clean yeast has a specific profile.)

Second, dry yeast is frozen at a specific point in their productive cycle. They are allowed to reproduce, and then dried at the point where they are ready to feed and produce alcohol. By taking them out of this cycle, you are likely stressing them unnecessarily and you're not doing them any favors.

Finally, the cell count in the yeast is really high. If you're making a normal sized starter, they're not going to reproduce. They'll eat and then they'll go dormant. You shouldn't expect the same kind of growth that you'd have in a smaller yeast population.

Now, these things might only show in minor ways, but they will eventually show. I just think it is bad practice to make dry yeast starters.