Why I am losing so much water in boil?

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marjen

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So this was my third time brewing today. First time BIAB.

Last time I started with 6.25 gallons and ended up with just under 4 into the fermenter.
Today I did BIAB started with 7.25 gallons. Throught I did a good job squeezing the bag, ended up with 4 gallons into the fermenter. What gives?

I thought I should be losing about a gallon for every hour of boiling? I did a 60 minute boil. So I was hoping for 5 gallons into fermenter. I am using a 10 gallon kettle.
 
1 gallon per hour is just a guide.

I start with 8.5 gallons of water for 5.5 gallons in the fermenter. I lose it to mash, boil, and I leave some cold break behind in the kettle.

Also, altitude, temperature and a few other factors affect boil off rates
 
The rate of water loss during the boil is proportional to the heat input. If you double the amount of heat going into the BK, you will double the boil-off rate. The total volume loss is the boil-off rate times the boil time. To lose less water, you need to lower the heat during boil.

You need to learn your own system. You want to set a target boil-off rate, and then learn how vigorous a boil you need to get that rate. You can do a lot of the early learning with water, but final fine tuning will need to be done with wort, as the look of the boil at a specific boil-off rate will likely be different with wort vs. water.

You don't say whether your "starting" volumes are pre-boil volumes or total brewing water (strike + sparge) volumes. In any case to figure out how much total brewing water you need, you have to work backwards from your desired fermenter volume, adding all the losses along the way to come up with your total water volume.

Here's an example, using numbers typical for my system, but you need to find out what your numbers actually are. I target 5.5 gal in my fermenter. I leave about 1 qt (0.25 gal) in my BK, so I need 5.75 gal post-boil. My boil-off rate is about 1.25 gal/hr, so for a 1 hr boil I need my pre-boil volume to be 5.75 + 1.25 = 7.0 gal. My grain absorption rate (with squeezing) is about 0.08 gal/lb. If I have a 12.5 lb grain bill, then I will lose 12.5 * 0.08 = 1 gal to grain absorption. Therefore, I need to start with 8 gal of water.

Brew on :mug:
 
do you use a lid?
how long is the boil ?
total; surface area?

there are many factors to consider

I know I lose 8 % to a boil in 1 hour
and I use a calculator form to figure absorption

today I nailed it, but I do keep a gallon of pre boiled and cooled water around just in case
 
I lose about a gallon in the boil because my 'boil' looks more like a simmer and less like a rolling boil.
 
Boil rate will be different for everyone. Two biggest factors are pot dimensions and heat output. Weather does play a little factor but I wouldn't worry about that just yet (if at all). Next time you have a free hour, boil 4 gallons of water and see how much you end up with. That is your boil off. Make sure going forward your heat is the same and your boil off will be the same.

A gallon is a starting point but not accurate for everyone. I boil off 1.8 gallons.
 
I can understand his question on 2 counts. Does the boil in fact need to be a rolling boil for the entire time suggested. Just because 212 is boiling temp a simmer at 212 is not much different than rolling boil 212 ,just that much closer to steam and losing volume(right?). Is the intent to boil off water or just reach 212 for an extended period in order for the hot break and conversions,etc?
Like , I guess i could ask it this way . Are we going for a reduction here?
 
I can understand his question on 2 counts. Does the boil in fact need to be a rolling boil for the entire time suggested. Just because 212 is boiling temp a simmer at 212 is not much different than rolling boil 212 ,just that much closer to steam and losing volume(right?). Is the intent to boil off water or just reach 212 for an extended period in order for the hot break and conversions,etc?
Like , I guess i could ask it this way . Are we going for a reduction here?

There is a difference between a simmer at 212 and a rolling boil at 212. You want a rolling boil for a few reasons. It drives off DMS, it increases hop utilization, cause the Maillard reaction and to an extent sterilize the wort. I would think sterilization would happen at 212 with a rolling boil or simmer which is why I said to an extent. Driving off DMS, increased hop utilization and Maillard reaction happen more with a rolling boil.
 
I saw someone ask if you used a lid? I thought that was a no-no?

It is. DMS is released in the steam. I think the poster was just saying there are a lot of factors that can change boil off.

To the OP, it sounds like you just need to calibrate your system. If you aren't already, try using BeerSmith. Boil water for an hour to get your boil off. Brew a batch and keep really good notes on volumes. After that one batch you will have everything you need to enter into BeerSmith. The next few batches you may adjust a few things slightly but after that you should be hitting your volumes right on. After doing that I am always spot on with volume (maybe a few cups off here or there) and within a few points for gravity.
 
Just use sterile top up water (with no chlorine). You're not losing any sugar during the brewing, just water.
 
Last time I started with 6.25 gallons and ended up with just under 4 into the fermenter.
Today I did BIAB started with 7.25 gallons. Throught I did a good job squeezing the bag, ended up with 4 gallons into the fermenter. What gives?

When you say "started with 7.25 gallons," is that strike water or after squeezing the bag? You received a lot of good answers here to your question about boil losses, but I'm wondering how you are accounting for grain absorption prior to the boil.
 
using a lid helps with boil off, you do not keep the lid completely closed but keep it partially covered
 
I can understand his question on 2 counts. Does the boil in fact need to be a rolling boil for the entire time suggested. Just because 212 is boiling temp a simmer at 212 is not much different than rolling boil 212 ,just that much closer to steam and losing volume(right?). Is the intent to boil off water or just reach 212 for an extended period in order for the hot break and conversions,etc?
Like , I guess i could ask it this way . Are we going for a reduction here?

A rolling boil is used to boil off DMS plus it higher the boil the better the isomerization of the alpha acids in the hops, in other words you extract a lot more of the hops. and it helps bunching together proteins so they drop out easier
 
Do not put a gallon of water on the stove andboil it. You will be off. As doug replied above, boiloff is proportional to heat input to your BK. But the amount of water in the BK is what he was referring to there (i hope). Typical stove burner is 10-20k btu per hour. Lets say 16k/hr.

That 16k will boil off alot more from a 1 gallon batch than 5gals. At 1 gal its 4k btus per qt. At 5gal its lessthan 1k. If you think of the steam vapor as the released surplus energy it becomes obvious why the boiloff increases as water level drops.

If u think you need to start with 7 or 8 gals, use that when you test.
 
Do not put a gallon of water on the stove andboil it. You will be off. As doug replied above, boiloff is proportional to heat input to your BK. But the amount of water in the BK is what he was referring to there (i hope). Typical stove burner is 10-20k btu per hour. Lets say 16k/hr.

That 16k will boil off alot more from a 1 gallon batch than 5gals. At 1 gal its 4k btus per qt. At 5gal its lessthan 1k. If you think of the steam vapor as the released surplus energy it becomes obvious why the boiloff increases as water level drops.

If u think you need to start with 7 or 8 gals, use that when you test.

This is not true. Boil off on the same heat source in the same kettle will be the same no matter of volume. It will take longer to reach a boil but once there the boil off in gallons will be the same for 2 gallons or 10 gallons. The heat source and pot diameter will affect boil off.
 
Wow lots of good responses. I guess i did not realize you could "over" boil so to speak. I figured once the water was boiling it would always lose a certain rate. I do have the burner cranked up, maybe i will reduce the burner a bit once I reach boil.

I started with 7.25 pre wort. I squeezed the bag as much as possible, no idea where i was at when i took the bag out as my kettle does not have internal markers. I am guessing I lost a little less than a gallon as I ended up right around were I was last time when I did extract with 6.25 gallons. Maybe next time I will start with 8 gallons and hope to get around 5.
 
I use a 3 tier system. Every once in a while I still "over boil" and lose more than I want. I try to have the same roll in my rolling boil, but it sometimes is more than I think... I know, that's what I get for thinking.
Brew on bro. You'll get it and enjoy the process and fruit of your efforts.
 
Until you get your system dialed in, keep a couple of pre boiled and cooled gallons of water around. because all of us have a bit of different systems we can come from slightly different angles with answers here
 
I saw someone ask if you used a lid? I thought that was a no-no?

Almost ALL pro brewing systems are covered and they have a very small outlet vent. The wive's tale that homebrewing has that says that covering your kettle is a no-no, is incorrect. In addition, homebrewers are schooled to have vigorous boil activity. This is also incorrect.

While avoiding DMS in your beer is important, it turns out that its not that difficult to avoid. An important factor is to be sure that the SMM (that creates DMS) is fully converted. That conversion has been shown to be complete in a typical boil by a number of researchers (even with Pils malt). But the fear is that your boil needs to vent everything to the atmosphere to get all the DMS out. As the pro systems show, you don't need to vent everything out to reduce DMS to inperceptible levels.

The boil does not have to be volcanic either. A lightly rolling boil that you can see is circulating particles in the kettle, is sufficient. That heat input is sufficient to convert all SMM to DMS in a 60 minute boil. If you are worried about expelling everything, I suggest that increasing the boil vigor for the last 5 minutes of the boil is sufficient. Opening the kettle cover is OK too during that period.

An important thing that brewers need to become aware of is: Thiobarbituric Acid. This is an important oxidizing agent that destroys beer prematurely. Look it up!

The thing about thiobarbituric acid is that it is created by boiling your wort too hard and/or too long. The connection with covering your kettle is that by covering the kettle, you can actually reduce the heat input to your kettle while still achieving acceptable rolling action.

The boil duration is another factor that is debatable. A popular contention is that you should always boil a wort with a high Pils malt content for at least 90 minutes to expel DMS. There is evidence that you can get by with a boil duration of 60 minutes with a Pils grist and still have low DMS in the beer.

But there are cases where you might want to boil a long time. Those styles that benefit from oxidation notes or Maillard browning are candidates. But these factors are not desirable in pale beers, so avoid boiling them for more than an hour.

The final factor that homebrewers need to consider is the amount of water they boil off during the boil. Pro-systems typically lose about 6 to 10 percent of the original wort volume during an hour-long boil. An uncovered homebrew kettle can easily lose more than 15% in an hour. So typical homebrewers are boiling off more than twice the water that the pro's are...and we know that many pro beers have high quality. Covering the kettle and reducing both the heat input and evaporation loss is an appropriate goal for homebrewers.

There are homebrewers that have found that decreasing their evaporation loss to 6% may be too low. They did have DMS problems in that case, but I can report that I've reduced my loss to about 10% and I haven't noted DMS in my recent beers. The brewers from the Low Oxygen forum think that 8% might be as low as you'd want to go. By the way, I used to have the lid on my kettle partially open with a max crescent opening of about 6 inches. I've revised that to only about a 1 inch crescent opening to successfully reduce my evaporation and heating rates.

I'm hoping you will consider this information and start doing some research and experimentation on your own. There are significant advantages to covering your kettle and boiling at lower intensity and duration.
 
This is not true. Boil off on the same heat source in the same kettle will be the same no matter of volume. It will take longer to reach a boil but once there the boil off in gallons will be the same for 2 gallons or 10 gallons. The heat source and pot diameter will affect boil off.

Actually, it is. Why in the world does pot diameter matter? Surface area ratio. And as you boil off more you increase the surface area in relation to water volume, increasing evaporation rate per volume.
 
Actually, it is. Why in the world does pot diameter matter? Surface area ratio. And as you boil off more you increase the surface area in relation to water volume, increasing evaporation rate per volume.

That's not why pot diameter matters. A larger diameter pot has more surface area than a smaller diameter pot, both the metal area and beer surface area. The more total area, the more of the heat input is lost to convection and radiation to the ambient. That lost heat does not contribute to the boil. This is why pot geometry affects boil off rate.

Total boil off volume depends only on the total energy input minus the total energy lost to ambient, and is independent of the amount of liquid. Read up on latent heat of vaporization. A fixed amount of energy will transform a fixed mass of liquid at boiling temp to gas. Doesn't matter how much liquid is available.

Brew on :mug:
 
ok ,now it sounds like theres a few differing ideas on this. Which is why I asked the question to expand the conversation. So lets throw these in there...
Gas or propane (what kind of burner is it, banjo or the one that comes with the burner kit from Menards) or electric. lid or no lid, 5 gallons,8 gallons or 10 .elevation (are we in IL or CO?) is it well water or softened city water (mineral level). Not trying to be difficult but these and other things will affect someones boil off rate.
 
Good points, but before you measure the surface area of your kettle, the humidity of your air, and the ionic strength and midi-chlorian concentration of your water.....just add more water. You can pre-boil it yourself, or buy bottled distilled water from the store that can be considered sterile and doesn't contain chlorine. Aim for 1.5 quarts of water per pound of grain in the mash, and sparge with a few more gallons. As for the kettle lid debate, boil without the top on... millions of good homebrewed batches across the world agree.
 
Actually, it is. Why in the world does pot diameter matter? Surface area ratio. And as you boil off more you increase the surface area in relation to water volume, increasing evaporation rate per volume.

Nope, that's not correct at all. Volume has no affect on boil off. You will boil off the same amount whether you have 15 gallons or 5 gallons.

That's not why pot diameter matters. A larger diameter pot has more surface area than a smaller diameter pot, both the metal area and beer surface area. The more total area, the more of the heat input is lost to convection and radiation to the ambient. That lost heat does not contribute to the boil. This is why pot geometry affects boil off rate.

Total boil off volume depends only on the total energy input minus the total energy lost to ambient, and is independent of the amount of liquid. Read up on latent heat of vaporization. A fixed amount of energy will transform a fixed mass of liquid at boiling temp to gas. Doesn't matter how much liquid is available.

Brew on :mug:

Exactly. Good explanation.
 
Almost ALL pro brewing systems are covered and they have a very small outlet vent. The wive's tale that homebrewing has that says that covering your kettle is a no-no, is incorrect. In addition, homebrewers are schooled to have vigorous boil activity. This is also incorrect.

While avoiding DMS in your beer is important, it turns out that its not that difficult to avoid. An important factor is to be sure that the SMM (that creates DMS) is fully converted. That conversion has been shown to be complete in a typical boil by a number of researchers (even with Pils malt). But the fear is that your boil needs to vent everything to the atmosphere to get all the DMS out. As the pro systems show, you don't need to vent everything out to reduce DMS to inperceptible levels.

The boil does not have to be volcanic either. A lightly rolling boil that you can see is circulating particles in the kettle, is sufficient. That heat input is sufficient to convert all SMM to DMS in a 60 minute boil. If you are worried about expelling everything, I suggest that increasing the boil vigor for the last 5 minutes of the boil is sufficient. Opening the kettle cover is OK too during that period.

An important thing that brewers need to become aware of is: Thiobarbituric Acid. This is an important oxidizing agent that destroys beer prematurely. Look it up!

The thing about thiobarbituric acid is that it is created by boiling your wort too hard and/or too long. The connection with covering your kettle is that by covering the kettle, you can actually reduce the heat input to your kettle while still achieving acceptable rolling action.

The boil duration is another factor that is debatable. A popular contention is that you should always boil a wort with a high Pils malt content for at least 90 minutes to expel DMS. There is evidence that you can get by with a boil duration of 60 minutes with a Pils grist and still have low DMS in the beer.

But there are cases where you might want to boil a long time. Those styles that benefit from oxidation notes or Maillard browning are candidates. But these factors are not desirable in pale beers, so avoid boiling them for more than an hour.

The final factor that homebrewers need to consider is the amount of water they boil off during the boil. Pro-systems typically lose about 6 to 10 percent of the original wort volume during an hour-long boil. An uncovered homebrew kettle can easily lose more than 15% in an hour. So typical homebrewers are boiling off more than twice the water that the pro's are...and we know that many pro beers have high quality. Covering the kettle and reducing both the heat input and evaporation loss is an appropriate goal for homebrewers.

There are homebrewers that have found that decreasing their evaporation loss to 6% may be too low. They did have DMS problems in that case, but I can report that I've reduced my loss to about 10% and I haven't noted DMS in my recent beers. The brewers from the Low Oxygen forum think that 8% might be as low as you'd want to go. By the way, I used to have the lid on my kettle partially open with a max crescent opening of about 6 inches. I've revised that to only about a 1 inch crescent opening to successfully reduce my evaporation and heating rates.

I'm hoping you will consider this information and start doing some research and experimentation on your own. There are significant advantages to covering your kettle and boiling at lower intensity and duration.

My system boils off a ton. I'll have to try a partially covered batch. I even turn my power down and it still boils off a lot.
 
That's not why pot diameter matters. A larger diameter pot has more surface area than a smaller diameter pot, both the metal area and beer surface area. The more total area, the more of the heat input is lost to convection and radiation to the ambient. That lost heat does not contribute to the boil. This is why pot geometry affects boil off rate.

Total boil off volume depends only on the total energy input minus the total energy lost to ambient, and is independent of the amount of liquid. Read up on latent heat of vaporization. A fixed amount of energy will transform a fixed mass of liquid at boiling temp to gas. Doesn't matter how much liquid is available.

Brew on :mug:

so you're saying that evaporation is NOT "energy lost to ambient"? and surface area ratio does NOT have anything to do with the rate of evaporation?

that's pretty interesting. i'll see if i can get my neighbor to send you some work pics. they play with chems in a kettle shaped vessel to make their product. then they put it into a wide shallow vessel to evaporate and collect the salts. same BTUs, i asked. it'd surprise me that a multinational corporation consisting of engineers doctors and scientists would incorrectly design and engineer their mega-million dollar facility, but you sound pretty sure so i'll take your word for it. what a bunch of chumps.
 
Who would know a simple question would produce such a complex conversation, lol. Thats the interesting thing I am discovering about this hobby. Sometimes it seems and is so simple, but there are so many layers and complexities to explore if you desire.
 
There's some things that require a better understanding of and will make better beer, and then there's things that can be waaaayyyy over-analyzed. The ability to know the difference comes with experience
 
There's some things that require a better understanding of and will make better beer, and then there's things that can be waaaayyyy over-analyzed. The ability to know the difference comes with experience

Good point. You don't need to understand the thermodynamics of boiling (as interesting as it might, or might not :D , be) in order to adjust your boil-off rate. Just lower or raise the heat. Experiment with heat input levels until you get the boil-off you want.

Brew on :mug:
 
I had the same problem and was boiling too hot. I turned the flame down and perfect now.
 
High heat to bring to boil, the turn it down to get rolling boil -- you want to see bubbles on the surface but they don't have to cover the surface. You want to see things moving around, but they don't have to be a some volcanic dance temp.

You ABSOLUTELY must do a boil off test, and you ABSOLUTELY must factor in grain absorption of initial stirke water volume.

I have a 10gal pot, 13.5" dia, and rolling boil off of 1-1.1gal/hr, grain absorbtion (absorption?) of 0.077875 gal/pound. I use BIAB and don't squeeze, just let it drip into another vessel during 15-20m after mash while bringing kettle to boil, adding drips just before boil.

The thing is, YOUR SYSTEM WILL BE DIFFERENT and only you can find out what that is by taking volume measurements carefully as you go.
 
So this was my third time brewing today. First time BIAB.

Last time I started with 6.25 gallons and ended up with just under 4 into the fermenter.
Today I did BIAB started with 7.25 gallons. Throught I did a good job squeezing the bag, ended up with 4 gallons into the fermenter. What gives?

I thought I should be losing about a gallon for every hour of boiling? I did a 60 minute boil. So I was hoping for 5 gallons into fermenter. I am using a 10 gallon kettle.

Just keep experimenting. Eventually you'll learn how your "system" works.
Bump the beginning water up to 8.5 gallons and see what happens.
You didn't say anything about your starting gravity, if you just added another gallon of water after the boil, would it have come out about right?
 
Turn down your gas when you get a boil. I've cranked mine way down to a "simmer" with no effects. Now I'm pissed I've been wasting gas all these years. I also have a lot more room to drain by bag into the kettle because of less water needed.
 
I thought you wanted a rolling boil to keep the beer from scorching on the bottom of the kettle, and to promote the mixing of the hop pellets throughout the wort, rather than letting them settle to the bottom (where the scorching is taking place).

I start the boil with 7 gallons, and by the time it's boiled, cooled, screened, and in the fermenter, I have ~5.6 gallons remaining. Am I a victim of excessive boiling?
 
I start with the boil with 7 gallons, and by the time it's boiled, cooled, screened, and in the fermenter, I have ~5.6 gallons remaining. Am I a victim of excessive boiling?

You can get fussy about many aspects of brewing; does it really matter if your evaporation is 1.4 gallons versus 1 gallon or 1.2 gallons?
If you can dial back the heat, you'll save on gas or electricity, so that's one advantage.
Perhaps someday someone will do a beer experiment with two brews, one boiled at the max, the other dialed back.
I'm thinking the average drinker won't be able to tell the difference?
 
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