mikescooling
Well-Known Member
My question to you, is why doesn't everyone use sanke kegs as fermenters? They are great, and when it's time to rack, you can use co2 to make the jump, (with the spears locked back in).
Why bother with carboys and blow-off tubes?
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OP
OP
I honestly don't know. Can you elabotate on this?
mikescooling
Well-Known Member
You can get them new or used, my home brew club has a connection for em, and they are sold online. They come in all sizes. They are food grade SS, so they block out light. They come with a skirt which works great as a stand. The better bottle airlocks fit them. When you want to rack, you use sanke couplers to push the beer with CO2. You have to take the flow check valve out of one of the coupler and I use a spear/dip tube that I cut an inch off the shaft, so it's not on the bottom when I rack. I also serve in sanke's, so I jump from the fermenter to the serving keg. The couplers are bomb proof. I have no idea why this isn't talked about more.
Inertia?
With a bazillion corny style kegs being decommissioned over the last twenty years or more in favor of BiB there was a humongous supply of cheap stainless steel vessels being dumped that were easy to use and easy to clean. Meanwhile, Sanke kegs were almost always "Property Of Someone" and as they're still used by the beer industry they're still in demand.
Isn't home brewer use of 1/6th Sankes a fairly recent paradigm?
Cheers!
Yeap. Cornies flooded the market and they were cheap. Why wouldn't you use them when they were only $10. And 1/6bbl sankes and tall 1/4bbl are relatively new. The only kegs I used to see were BMC 1/2 and short 1/4. Not great sizes if you several beers on tap, but maybe good for fermenters. However, that better bottle cap you recommended is fairly new too.
Now that the price of used cornies isn't too far off from the price of new cornies, which isn't too far off from a new, Chinese made ones. Not to mention the legal and illegal underground markets of sankes that don't make it back to the brewer.
Now that the price of used cornies isn't too far off from the price of new cornies, which isn't too far off from a new, Chinese made ones. Not to mention the legal and illegal underground markets of sankes that don't make it back to the brewer.
OP
OP
I'm not set up for something like that and I want to keep it simple for now anyway. I would really like one of these, but its 1 gallon too small for my batch sizes. Start making 8 gal please SS Brewtech!
http://www.ssbrewtech.com/collections/fermenters/products/brewbucket
I can soak and shake my better bottles clean without any other cleaning techniques 90% of the time. I have also dropped them before and they didn't break. Many glass users will parrot this mantra about scratches and infections, when the reality most of them use a FAR more likely to be infected tool known as an autosiphon, or a plastic racking cane, or a bottling wand, or plastic transfer tubing, or get their yeasts from plastic vials.
Show me someone concerned about plastic scratches and infections and the vast majority of the time I'll show you some who ferments in glass trying to rationalize their choice.
flugelizor
Well-Known Member
Well, no, I chill directly to glass, then ferment until there is alcohol.
Then use the plastic products you mentioned, when the alcohol level is high enough, infection danger is lower.
flugelizor said:
I was speaking very generally. Me thinks thou doth protest too much.
bmblinbrewer
Member
I like carboys. I've been using glass for 2 years with no problems up until last night. I've heard horror stories about glass but figured that was "other people's problems".
This is what my Labor Day Weekend Hefe did last night. WY3068 +32 hours. Fortunately, no one has been hurt. (though I still need to clean up the champer)
I'm likely going to move to a better bottle because I like the limited exposure to the atmosphere that a bottle gives you. Those glass shards are nasty looking.
This is what my Labor Day Weekend Hefe did last night. WY3068 +32 hours. Fortunately, no one has been hurt. (though I still need to clean up the champer)
I'm likely going to move to a better bottle because I like the limited exposure to the atmosphere that a bottle gives you. Those glass shards are nasty looking.
Oh that sucks. Please tell me you didn't lose a temp controller along with all that beer? (blue thing in the first pick?)
So the airlock plugged and the stopper was so tight it literally blew up the carboy??
Or did you drop it...
Cheers!
The biggest thing is that homebrew shops really push them to newbies because they cost more than a plastic bucket. Oh, do you need a brush for that? How about a carrying handle? And you'll probably need a hauler? Maybe some stick on thermometer tape? OK, you're just about set now.
I'm a little curious about the thermowell or probe he has jambed in there. I don't think I've seen that with a universal bung before. Something new there.
OP
OP
Aweful man, but thanks for sharing that. Glad everyone's okay and hope the mess was fully contained in the chamber.
I work in the food industry and glass is a BIG no no. but that is only because of the risk of it breaking not chemicals or such. As far as the plastic scratching I just don't buy it.
it is obviously easier to scratch and of course scratches are harder to clean. But the real world risk is very small. Ever see glass cutting board? or even a stainless steel one?
The fact of the matter is everyone uses plastic cutting boards and we clean them everyday.
We have areas where people use cutting boards for 8 hours day and we do a lot of environmental sampling and they are just not an issue.
it is obviously easier to scratch and of course scratches are harder to clean. But the real world risk is very small. Ever see glass cutting board? or even a stainless steel one?
The fact of the matter is everyone uses plastic cutting boards and we clean them everyday.
We have areas where people use cutting boards for 8 hours day and we do a lot of environmental sampling and they are just not an issue.
kombat
Well-Known Member
Bingo.
You "clean them everyday."
When you rack wort into a plastic bucket to begin fermenting, you're not cleaning that plastic bucket "every day." You're leaving it undisturbed for days/weeks, giving it the perfect environment for any contaminant to grow and fester.
OP
OP
Half of the posts in the 'Post Your Infection' thread relate to carboys though. If plastics were prone to infection, I'd expect the thread to be dominated by bucket issues.
Plastic can scratch, but cleaning with a soft brush minimizes this. It's also very easy to ensure the interior is squeeky clean. Consider you can also scratch a carboy, particularly around the neck, if you're too ambitious with those metal handled brushes. They can be cleaned thorougly as well, but it requires more attention and you need a keen eye to spot those gunky microparticles.
All things considered, I think it comes down to good upfront sanitation ensuring your brew stays protected during lag phase. Yeast and then alcohol protect it from there right? Great comments btw everyone. It's great reading about all the different perspectives out there.
Plastic can scratch, but cleaning with a soft brush minimizes this. It's also very easy to ensure the interior is squeeky clean. Consider you can also scratch a carboy, particularly around the neck, if you're too ambitious with those metal handled brushes. They can be cleaned thorougly as well, but it requires more attention and you need a keen eye to spot those gunky microparticles.
All things considered, I think it comes down to good upfront sanitation ensuring your brew stays protected during lag phase. Yeast and then alcohol protect it from there right? Great comments btw everyone. It's great reading about all the different perspectives out there.
So where's the evidence that people who ferment in plastic have a higher rate of infection? I don't have any other then anecdotal, but the most unsanitary brewers I know are mostly using glass. I don't need to blame the fermenter vessel though, unwanted infections come from poor sanitation, whether it's a carboy, a conical, a better bottle or a bucket.
What's your process for CO2 transfer? I've been trying to do this with mixed results. What kind of stopper do you use?
Arrheinous
Well-Known Member
Never used a thermowell before (will soon) but I'd assume you're supposed to use a carboy cap - one opening for the thermowell, one for an airlock?
Put the racking cane in the thermowell hole (has to be a tight seal) and and an air inlet (of your choosing, just have to know how you're going to hook it to your CO2 source) in the other. Put the outlet of your racking cane to the barb on the keg's QD, unscrew your PRV so that it can bleed the gas as the keg fills...hit the fermenter with a very low pressure of C02 to start the siphon, and you're off to the races.
None of the vessels we typically use aside from conicals, are rated for pressure though, so even though I don't do this, if I did, I'd be very careful.
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Arrheinous
Well-Known Member
Try out a needle valve in-line after the regulator. That should let less gas through to the carboy so you can move the beer with the lowest pressure possible.
Yeah, that looks weird, I'd like to see a closeup of that section. I've never seen a bung jammed that deep into a carboy's neck either. And that carboy has a sizable wall thickness. Not the light bulb "quality" of the BMBs. The pressure must have built up with nowhere else to go. I'd rather find a bung on the floor one morning.
Good idea. I mostly was doing a CYA with that because you know, the internet and all..don't want someone blowing up their Carboy then pointing to my post! LOL..
bmblinbrewer
Member
jbaysurfer: The blue in the pic is a heat belt, it lived. The stc 1000 was fortunately on the outside of the freezer and wasn't touched.
The bung has two holes in it, one for the thermowell and one for the airlock. It was purchased at my lhbs and has worked fine for ~10 batches.
In this case I accidentally got the bung lodged too deep. I think if it was sitting at a normal level it may have just blown off the bung.
Short story long. My chiller only gets the wort down to 78F so I transfer to the carboy and put it in the chamber until it reaches ferm temp. In this case 67F. When I took the bung out to pitch the yeast I sprayed it with star san and well... the slippery sucker wouldn't stay down. I pushed a little harder and... it did stay down. Way down. Apparently too far down. I was annoyed and thought "that's gonna be a b!#$h to get out" but didn't think it would be an issue.
I think plan to avoid bungs going forward. I like the cap that AnOldUR displays above and will try that out on the next batch. I will probably go with a better bottle if for no other reason that to try it out.
The bung has two holes in it, one for the thermowell and one for the airlock. It was purchased at my lhbs and has worked fine for ~10 batches.
In this case I accidentally got the bung lodged too deep. I think if it was sitting at a normal level it may have just blown off the bung.
Short story long. My chiller only gets the wort down to 78F so I transfer to the carboy and put it in the chamber until it reaches ferm temp. In this case 67F. When I took the bung out to pitch the yeast I sprayed it with star san and well... the slippery sucker wouldn't stay down. I pushed a little harder and... it did stay down. Way down. Apparently too far down. I was annoyed and thought "that's gonna be a b!#$h to get out" but didn't think it would be an issue.
I think plan to avoid bungs going forward. I like the cap that AnOldUR displays above and will try that out on the next batch. I will probably go with a better bottle if for no other reason that to try it out.
bmblinbrewer
Member
The airlock plugged and the stopper was so tight it blew up.
I don't believe it.
Jeeze, that's rather sobering.
fwiw, I run 1" ID blow-offs until the throes of fermentation have subsided whereupon I switch to s-locks.
After seeing a carboy bomb I'll stick to that regimen...
Cheers!
Really? I mean it is going to fail somewhere. If the weakest point wasn't the stopper then it won't fail there. I suspect the carboy might have had a microfracture there already but that is just conjecture. Stranger things have happened.
No, the airlock would pretty much need to be filled with superglue for that to be the cause.
I'm more inclined to believe that the carboy was fractured by the trauma of forcing that bung so far down in addition to having a foreign object between it and the glass (whatever that was, some sort of sensor) and that the fracture traveled while it was in the chamber. Glass fractures travel easily based on temperature changes.
bja
Well-Known Member
You can't be serious. If the bung being forced in caused the fracture it would've broken at the opening. Not 6" below it.
Glass fractures aren't like tornadoes. They don't jump around and hit one place and skip another.
Stealthcruiser
Well-Known Member
StarSan + sticky wort= superglue.
bmblinbrewer
Member
I'm open to other theories. I promise that it was not dropped.
He gave you a pretty solid one above.
bmblinbrewer
Member
bmblinbrewer
Member
There was no foreign object wedged between the bung and the glass. That was a bung drilled with 2 holes, one for a thermowell and one for an airlock. Certainly, the bung could have added pressure to a pre-existing imperfection but I doubt it was the cause of it.
So back to the OP. I've got both. Mainly because i bought up a large lot from a guy getting out of the hobby for dirt cheap. Once I built my single tier, and started carrying full 6.5 gal carboys into the house, with slippery hands, I decided to switch to buckets. I've had bucket lids blow (scared the crap out of the dog), just as I've had air locks and bungs blow out of a carboy. I still use the carboys for aging/secondary. Yes, I secondary too (there's another can of worms). But I do it for other reasons, not because i've always done it.
That all said, I don't get the infection issue. I have been homebewing for 12+ yrs now, with more batches than I can remember at this point. The only time I've had an infection, I intentionally introduced said brett/lacto, etc. I'm still on my original auto siphon, and have only swapped out the tubing 3-4 times? Maybe I over sanitize, but I highly suspect other's sanitation techniques if they are using that as a crutch.
And I don't get the "i want to be able to see the fermentation" argument either. Maybe I just have better things to do with my time than to sit there and watch a fermentation. I take an OG when I put the wort in the fermentor and pitch. Wait a week or so (depending on when I get back to it), take another reading. Take one the next day and see if we're done. Though really, by now, I know when I'm where I'm supposed to be. Even when I was a doe eyed newb, I never sat there and watched the fermentation.
Bottom line, both have their merits. Really comes down to what you got when you started, and how you filled out your brewery. And now, justifying your selection choice. I mean, really, the best option in this entire thread is a couple pages back using the stainless sanke. Or a stainless conical. But that's not in the cards for most of us, so you go with what you got.
That all said, I don't get the infection issue. I have been homebewing for 12+ yrs now, with more batches than I can remember at this point. The only time I've had an infection, I intentionally introduced said brett/lacto, etc. I'm still on my original auto siphon, and have only swapped out the tubing 3-4 times? Maybe I over sanitize, but I highly suspect other's sanitation techniques if they are using that as a crutch.
And I don't get the "i want to be able to see the fermentation" argument either. Maybe I just have better things to do with my time than to sit there and watch a fermentation. I take an OG when I put the wort in the fermentor and pitch. Wait a week or so (depending on when I get back to it), take another reading. Take one the next day and see if we're done. Though really, by now, I know when I'm where I'm supposed to be. Even when I was a doe eyed newb, I never sat there and watched the fermentation.
Bottom line, both have their merits. Really comes down to what you got when you started, and how you filled out your brewery. And now, justifying your selection choice. I mean, really, the best option in this entire thread is a couple pages back using the stainless sanke. Or a stainless conical. But that's not in the cards for most of us, so you go with what you got.
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Don't claim to understand the science other than that gasses mix regardless of their weight or currents in the environment.
[SIZE=+1]Diffusion[/SIZE] - The rate at which two gases mix.
[SIZE=+2]Graham's Law of Diffusion[/SIZE]
- The rate at which gases diffuse is inversely proportional to the square root of their densities.
