Why a a Grainfather over....

[augiedoggy]

It seems maybe a bit late to jump in, but I didn't see this thread earlier so here goes!
My 2 cents...
The reason you are pumping wort, is for optimum temperature control. It moves the wort around the vessel. Because of this exchange of wort, the PID can react faster therefore keeping temps with greater precision. As a result, you do have a clearer wort because of circulation, a small bonus. Building a grain bed in BIAB is not relevant like it is in a traditional mash tun so issues of whether there are holes in the sides of the basket aren't issues as you are brewing with a full volume of wort. The grains are more immersed like a tea bag is in tea. The basket is there for protection from the element and yes, for lifting but I'm still trying to find a downside to the basket vs. just the bag.

Do you really not see the downside ? you mention circulation as being a key apsect of this system but with a basket basically holding a ball of grain in the middle with an opening between it and the pot completely around it for the wort to easily bypass it you do not get very effective recirculation THROUGH the grainbed instead of around it.

I think the system will make beer just fine, its just not an optimized setup and the beer could come out with much more consistent efficiencies if the basket (or bag ) filled the whole circumference of the pot, forcing the wort to travel through the grains and not around them as is more likely to happen with a basket. the pid and recirculation will help keep mash temp once its reached at dough in (if correct like Alpha mentioned) but its acting more like a waterjacket around a conical really than actually recirculating.

Obliviously the system works and people are happy with it but are the results really that consistent? does the wort really stay clear for those who raise the basket and sparge through it? that would be one indication of how well its actually recirculating It does with the setup I use.


Put it this way if you wanted to make an effective filter such as a carbon filter for water to pass through. Would you fill the whole opening with carbon forcing an even path of resistance through the filter or would you put a smaller basket of media in the center of the water pathway?
which do you think would be more efficient? Which would you use if you had the choice? sure they would both work to a degree but one would be vastly superior. Not exactly the same thing but the same causes and effect would apply.
I'm not being bias about anything because I honestly didnt pay attention to the differences and which system is which except the high gravity setup which I know from other threads. I'm just trying to keep this about the technology and the engineering involved here and it weaknesses... afterall we are constantly learning and improving here from what I've seen.

 

[TexasWine]

Obliviously the system works and people are happy with it but are the results really that consistent? does the wort really stay clear for those who raise the basket and sparge through it? that would be one indication of how well its actually recirculating It does with the setup I use.

No problems with consistency here. Between 85 and 88% with 6 batches so far. I expect that for every batch expect those outliers with huge grains bills.

And wort clarity is not typically a concern for BIAB. As soon as you start moving that grain bed around all bets are off on wort clarity, whether you're using a bag, a bag and basket with holes on the side, or solid walled mesh bottom basket.

 

[augiedoggy]

No problems with consistency here. Between 85 and 88% with 6 batches so far. I expect that for every batch expect those outliers with huge grains bills.

And wort clarity is not typically a concern for BIAB. As soon as you start moving that grain bed around all bets are off on wort clarity, whether you're using a bag, a bag and basket with holes on the side, or solid walled mesh bottom basket.

I understand that with a bag but a basket would prevent the grain from shifting and therefore not disturb the bed so in this case it would be a good way to see if a real filtering bed was setup in the first place and help determine if the wort is really flowing through the grain to any significant degree.. when raising it and gently sparging liquid through it you should still see a relitively clear liquid at the bottom IF a grainbed was actually formed from recirculation. Am I making sense here?

Understand this discussion it going to upset people but lets not try to make it about defending choices but more about the engineering, theory of operation and the facts. We know it works but does it do everything most thing it does and does it do it all as well? Some dont want to know and thats fine just leave the thread but for those (like me) who are always looking for improvement...

 

[brew-in]

are we talking about grainfather in this topic,or something else

OP here - discussion on the grain basket and benefit of wort recircs is very much applicable to this GF versus competition thread. As the GF has solid sides and the others have perforated grain basket sides...

I am finding the chat and different views very interesting and educational....

Has me wondering if the grain bag with false bottom is better than the grainbasket approach...

 

[TexasWine]

I understand that with a bag but a basket would prevent the grain from shifting and therefore not disturb the bed so in this case it would be a good way to see if a real filtering bed was setup in the first place and help determine if the wort is really flowing through the grain to any significant degree.. when raising it and gently sparging liquid through it you should still see a relitively clear liquid at the bottom IF a grainbed was actually formed from recirculation. Am I making sense here?

Understand this discussion it going to upset people but lets not try to make it about defending choices but more about the engineering, theory of operation and the facts. We know it works but does it do everything most thing it does and does it do it all as well? Some dont want to know and thats fine just leave the thread but for those (like me) who are always looking for improvement...

I think I have an idea for an experiment that has a chance at solving the mystery of the recirculating basket. It’s not perfect, but here it goes.

Take some spent grain from a just completed brew day and perform a fake mash. By “fake” I mean do everything you would normally do with a mash except heat up the water. I don’t think there’s any benefit to doing this with hot water. Next, start recirculating the mash and when you feel confident that the grain bad has settled down, stop the pump and pull the basket out, hoisting it somewhere so the sides and bottom of the basket can be observed. Then, either pump water into the basket from the kettle or just use a water hose to slowly pour water through the grain bed.

Now here’s the test. If you see water coming out of the basket in a fairly distributed fashion from the sides and the bottom, then we can conclude we have reasonable distribution of water across the grain bed even when it’s in the kettle. However, if we see water bypassing the grain bed, exiting the basket primarily at the top, this still doesn’t tell us a whole lot. The reason could be because the grain bed is more fluid in the kettle because the grains would be surrounded by water. Or it could be that raising the grain bed caused further compaction that’s preventing water from penetrating the top. Or it could be that it actually DOES bypass the grain bed.

Let me know what y’all think. I might do this my next brew day if I remember. Should be simple enough.

 

[Bellybuster]

I brew with a basket. there is no grain bed, period.
what there is is wetted grains with total volume. The grain is loose enough that recirculating for sure allows the wort to pass through, by and around all the grain throughout the mash. If otherwise, efficiency would take a hard hit. This just isn't so.
The systems with the solid sides work on the premise of every other false bottom where wort passes from the top down through unless of course it's a bottom up system then we're back to the basket where wort just passes freely throughout the grain.
Most if not all of the past theories on thin mashes have been proven false

 

[aamcle]

Don't get too hung up on a PID, it needs tuning each time you make a significant change in volume and the ability of GF to make bigger or smaller batches is one of its advantages. As the temperature change is relatively slow on/off with a small dead band works without the need to re-tune.

Aamcle

 

[augiedoggy]

I brew with a basket. there is no grain bed, period.
what there is is wetted grains with total volume. The grain is loose enough that recirculating for sure allows the wort to pass through, by and around all the grain throughout the mash. If otherwise, efficiency would take a hard hit. This just isn't so.
The systems with the solid sides work on the premise of every other false bottom where wort passes from the top down through unless of course it's a bottom up system then we're back to the basket where wort just passes freely throughout the grain.
Most if not all of the past theories on thin mashes have been proven false

you dont need recirculation through the grain bed for efficiency... its just like using a cooler... the grain is soaking in hot water but its not sifting through the grain its more or less stagnent in the middle of the basket of grain... in otherwords its still works but its not filtering through or recircing through but rather around.

 

[augiedoggy]

Don't get too hung up on a PID, it needs tuning each time you make a significant change in volume and the ability of GF to make bigger or smaller batches is one of its advantages. As the temperature change is relatively slow on/off with a small dead band works without the need to re-tune.

Aamcle

not sure I follow but I regularly do both 6 and 11 gallon brews and no retuning is needed for me.. if you are actually recirculating through the grainbed its good to be able to hold temps withing a degree or two.... Without a pid thats pretty hard to do without lots of insulation.

 

[aamcle]

I'm not suggesting that recirculating is stopped as you said its needed to maintain temperature.

The GF uses a STC1000 type temperature controller not a PID it switches the heater on and off. Especially when running the GF's mashing element it controls the temperature well enough for brewing and will do so if the batch is a big one or a small one.

atb. Aamcle

 

[augiedoggy]

I'm not suggesting that recirculating is stopped as you said its needed to maintain temperature.

The GF uses a STC1000 type temperature controller not a PID it switches the heater on and off. Especially when running the GF's mashing element it controls the temperature well enough for brewing and will do so if the batch is a big one or a small one.

atb. Aamcle

Huh? Why is this such a hard concept for some to grasp?

If the liquid all around the basket of grain is moving (recirculating) AROUND the basket and staying a constant temp from the pid then so will the grain and its working just like a jacketed conical..(I like I said already). The basket of grain is going to stay a constant temp is ifs not exposed to temp fluctuation and its completly surrounded by the correct temp liquid. It needs to be exposed to lower temps for it to want to drop.
IT DOESNT mean the wort is consistently flowing THROUGH the basket of grain instead of around it where its easiest to go.

Essentually you get the same outcome as letting it sit in a really efficient cooler (which works fine but does not net you the benefits is true recirculation)

 

[Base2Brewery]

I have brewed with the brewboss system for 10 batches now. I went with the 15gal kettle (gives me the ability to do 5 or 10 gal sizes) 5500 watt element (220V) the COFI basket, and hops boss. I bought this system thinking I would only use it for my "simpler beer". Let's just say since it arrived my 3V set up has not been touched. I can't say enough about this system, and the customer support is next to none.
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1441456129.879427.jpgView attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1441456201.344471.jpgView attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1441456230.843648.jpg

 

[aamcle]

I'll use the last BIAB batch I did to explain I use a 50litre stockpot with a 25-30 litre basket made of 1" Stainless mesh and the bag lines the baskes in the usual way.

I recirculate from the bottom of the stockpot with the returning wort sprayed into the top of the basket that is to the top of the grain.

I auto-tuned my PID with the full volume of treated water, I took the water up to strike temperature and mashed in.

Temperature control was all over the place I took manual control in the end, this happened because the conditions under which I auto-tuned were not the same as the conditions in the mash. A large portion of the water was in the grain bag and moving very slowly.

The PID was following the auto-tuned parameters but because much of the water was effectively isolated in the BIAB bag, it was only working on 10 - 15liters of water not the 35 or so it expected.

The same happens in a GF or any system were there is a significant change in conditions, for instance in a GF using the same auto-tune for a 8 kg batch and a 4kg batch. You should re-tune your PID for the 4 kg batch BUT you would have to do it with grain (spent ?) In the basket.

A on/off controler avoids this, get to temperature it goes off, drop it comes on it doesn't care how much or little water its working on. So I works with a big batch or a small batch just the same.

As for flow through the grain bed, if you want to step mash without stirring the grain yourself then you need it, as a prety plus it also gets you clear wort as the grain bed acts as a filter in GF style systems.

PIDs are wonderfully if the conditions under which they are tuned are exactly the same as the conditions of use but not so good otherwise.


Atb. Aamcle

 

[augiedoggy]

I'll use the last BIAB batch I did to explain I use a 50litre stockpot with a 25-30 litre basket made of 1" Stainless mesh and the bag lines the baskes in the usual way.

I recirculate from the bottom of the stockpot with the returning wort sprayed into the top of the basket that is to the top of the grain.

I auto-tuned my PID with the full volume of treated water, I took the water up to strike temperature and mashed in.

Temperature control was all over the place I took manual control in the end, this happened because the conditions under which I auto-tuned were not the same as the conditions in the mash. A large portion of the water was in the grain bag and moving very slowly.

The PID was following the auto-tuned parameters but because much of the water was effectively isolated in the BIAB bag, it was only working on 10 - 15liters of water not the 35 or so it expected.

The same happens in a GF or any system were there is a significant change in conditions, for instance in a GF using the same auto-tune for a 8 kg batch and a 4kg batch. You should re-tune your PID for the 4 kg batch BUT you would have to do it with grain (spent ?) In the basket.

A on/off controler avoids this, get to temperature it goes off, drop it comes on it doesn't care how much or little water its working on. So I works with a big batch or a small batch just the same.

As for flow through the grain bed, if you want to step mash without stirring the grain yourself then you need it, as a prety plus it also gets you clear wort as the grain bed acts as a filter in GF style systems.

PIDs are wonderfully if the conditions under which they are tuned are exactly the same as the conditions of use but not so good otherwise.


Atb. Aamcle

With a rims you tune for GPM flow and it does not matter what the grainbill or brew size is.. at least thats the way it works for me... I autotuned my HLT but found it maintains temps fine regardless of the amount being heated (+- 2 degrees)
As long is there is dead open space around the basket the flow is going to gravitate to that space not through the restrictive grain. Some will likely flow through but I doubt very effectively. Kinda the same reasons behind doughballs if you dont "doughin"

 

[aamcle]

No text

Atb. Aamcle

 

[brew-in]

I have brewed with the brewboss system for 10 batches now. I went with the 15gal kettle (gives me the ability to do 5 or 10 gal sizes) 5500 watt element (220V) the COFI basket, and hops boss. I bought this system thinking I would only use it for my "simpler beer". Let's just say since it arrived my 3V set up has not been touched. I can't say enough about this system, and the customer support is next to none.
View attachment 301199View attachment 301200View attachment 301201

Hop Boss and all...very nice....

 

[1MadScientist]

brew-in. As an electrical engineer, why would not build a controller yourself, and diy the rest of the system too?

 

[kh54s10]

I have looked at all of these and if I was in the market for one it would be the Brew-Boss. I like the cofi filter as I think this would negate most of the "channeling" concerns. I especially like the tablet control, allowing you to set up all the parameters, then press the green start button.... I might or might not be interested in the Hop-Boss as it is not too difficult to add hops when required.... This is the one that puts most of the best features of all the others together in one package.

Now to win a lottery.....

 

[brew-in]

brew-in. As an electrical engineer, why would not build a controller yourself, and diy the rest of the system too?

Good question....I DIY lots of stuff (like my 3V brewing system)....the one item I will not DIY is something that deals with 240 volts....

don't get me wrong, I have designed high power circuits....they were all then reviewed by other engineers and safety prior to build/operation....this review process is something I am unable to avail myself of in retirement...

As long as we are on this topic....all should beware of electrical advise gotten online...I cringe at what the "experts" advise folks to do...

So I will procure a controller...I have asked a ton of questions of the folks who market controllers and usually they are very quickly scratched off my list as they cannot answer the electrical questions about their controller....or they simply give a flat out wrong answer.....they do not understand why they did what they did.......showing a lack of understanding of power circuit design...many of the mom/pop shop controllers worry me...always remember this is not 12 volts...it is 240 volts and it can kill you....

rather than speak ill of the ones that concern me, I will speak positively about ones that (IMHO) stands out to me as very well designed and thought out...

1) The Brew Boss Controller....Darin (the designer of the brew-boss) is an automation design engineer with almost 30 years experience...it shows in the mechanical, electrical, and software design of his controller...

2) Blichmann engineering's easy brew controller...like everything from Blichmann Engineering, it appears to be well though out....

So, as it stands now (and I am still looking), my new brewing system will have one of these two controllers....

 

[1MadScientist]

brew-in. Auber Instruments built mine. I wonder what anyone thinks about their work?

 

[augiedoggy]

brew-in. Auber Instruments built mine. I wonder what anyone thinks about their work?

I wasnt aware they built brewing control panels? I thought they just sold the components?

 

[1MadScientist]

Auber occasionally will build one on customer request. This controller was built in January 2015; http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=34&products_id=384

I finalized a sell on mine very similar to that design, on March 31st.

 

[augiedoggy]

Auber occasionally will build one on customer request. This controller was built in January 2015; http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=34&products_id=384

I finalized a sell on mine very similar to that design, on March 31st.

I hope people take note of the 18-20 gauge wiring to all the switches and pids in that auber link... And no I dont see anything wrong with it since everything connected to that wiring likely draws less than an amp combined but over and over I see everyone suggesting heavier 14 awg which is rated for 15 amps! just one of those things that brings up the cost and makes it harder to wire up.

 

[joebob296]

I hope people take note of the 18-20 gauge wiring to all the switches and pids in that auber link... And no I dont see anything wrong with it since everything connected to that wiring likely draws less than an amp combined but over and over I see everyone suggesting heavier 14 awg which is rated for 15 amps! just one of those things that brings up the cost and makes it harder to wire up.

If you have the correct insulation type and you are within the rated ampacity of the wire size, then there is no reason to go to a larger wire size. Like you said it's more expensive, harder to wire. It's also not needed nor does it provide any additional benefits. Some people think along the lines "bigger is better" in this case "bigger is useless." There's a reason wire sizes come with ratings. Obviously, this isn't directed towards you, just a post more in general.

 

[UglySister]

I live in a small farm house in Montana. With a family of 4 its a little tight. (if you could see were we live you would understand why we don't move into a bigger house) I don't have room for brewing equipment. The grainmaster gets stored in its box in the corner of the dining room. We brew every Sunday after church and it's nicely tucked away again by 6 or 7 that night. For me it's all about space. I like it so far.
However today I'm having my first problem. If you have experience with using it please check my next post and offer your opinion.
Thanks.