White Rajah Clone

[rjschroed]

I finally got around to brewing this last weekend. New job = less time for brewing for a while there. 10 gal batch, here is the recipe I used:

29.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 93.55 %
1.00 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 3.23 %
1.00 lb White Wheat Malt (2.4 SRM) Grain 3.23 %

1.50 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [13.90 %] (60 min) Hops 29.1 IBU
2.00 oz Centennial [8.70 %] (30 min) Hops 18.6 IBU
2.00 oz Citra [13.90 %] (15 min) Hops 19.2 IBU
1.50 oz Amarillo Gold [10.30 %] (15 min) Hops 10.7 IBU
0.50 oz Simcoe [12.20 %] (15 min) Hops 4.2 IBU
3.00 oz Citra [11.40 %] (0 min) Hops -
0.50 oz Simcoe [12.20 %] (0 min) Hops -
1.50 oz Amarillo Gold [10.30 %] (0 min) Hops -
2.00 oz Amarillo Gold [10.30 %] (Dry Hop 10 days) Hops -
2.00 oz Centennial [10.00 %] (Dry Hop 10 days) Hops -
4.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] (Dry Hop 10 days) Hops -

I got a pitch of US-05 yeast from a local brewery, you could also use WLP-001 or wyeast 1056.

I'll let you know how it turns out in a few weeks.

 

[bigdongsr94]

Can't wait to hear. This is prob my favorite I have had to date at this price point. It's just a fantastic beer.

 

[rjschroed]

In case anyone was wondering, I originally designed this recipe for 5 gallons, at which time I had plenty of hops (mainly citra) to make this happen. My buddy caught wind of what I was doing and pretty much begged me to make this a 10 gallon batch. Which immediately became problematic. . . I either had to find a bigger mash tun, sub some base malt out for dextrose (corn sugar), or find an extra mash tun. An extra mash tun magically appeared on brew day so I split everything down the middle and mashed in 2 tuns. I was also one ounce short on citra hops. . . so that is where the simcoe comes in. If I would have had the full 10 oz of citra hops available, I wouldn't have bothered with any simcoe on this attempt. Also, I mashed 1.5 qts/lb at 150. I almost always start with RO water and build up. I could get into a basic water chemistry bit right here but all you really need to know is try to add some gypsum.

 

[BrunstuckyJoe]

Let me know how close it is when it's ready to drink.

 

[rjschroed]

Kegged today, initial impressions are good. I'll report back when I can get an accurate comparison.

 

[rjschroed]

It's carbed up and several pints later I'll give you some feedback but I'll hold off on direct comparisons until later. There is more malt hanging around than I would've thought for such a simple malt bill. Lack of malt was honestly my biggest fear, but like the TBK White Rajah label says "malt, take a backseat." Backseat indeed. What I have (I'm calling it Hoptimus Prime) is definitely about the hops but there is some malt going on to keep it from being. . . I don't know. . . out of control, if just barely. Hoptimus Prime isn't overtly bitter on the palate, it's more about the hop flavor. . . as apparent by the late hop schedule. An out of this world hop profile without being overly grating on the palate. . . I love the centennial in the middle and the citra/amarillo late work great together, definitely a trio I'd put together again. The nose is incredible, lots of dank hop smell, citrus, pine held up by the sweet tropical fruit notes (Thanks to the amarillo, or is at least my belief and experience with the hop).

Okay, on to the direct comparison. I'll refer to my beer as Prime (short for Hoptimus Prime) and TBK White Rajah as Raj or the Raj. I drank both beers out of the same glass (DFH signature goblets) served at the same temp. at the same time. I keg and I had the Raj out of a bottle so I made sure to pour the same amount.

A: Both are pale golden in color. The Raj is crystal clear. Prime is mostly clear but slightly hazy (To be expected with that amount of hops). A Thin but persistent head pours on the Raj. Prime pours a nice finger and half fluffy white head that goes down eventually but remains thin and persistent. After 5 minutes the head appears the same on both. It is possible that TBK filters the Raj and that might account for the differences here.

S: Having a hard time picking out a difference here. . . literally had to have SWMBO hold them to my nose with my eyes closed to try to pick out a difference wish I would've done it triangle style though. I actually could pick out a very slight difference in the two. Prime is more tropical in the nose, Raj is more citrusy. . . the differences are MINIMAL. A dry hop of equal parts Centennial and Citra might be more appropriate. For the record, on the nose I actually thought Prime was Raj and Raj was Prime. No malt presences in the nose of either beer.

T: I'm having a hard time here too. I keep going back for a sip of one and then the other, 5 or 6 times. Differences are subtle. . . malt is ever so slight. . . barely propping up either beer. The bittering charge might be slightly greater in the Raj. . . slightly more flavor in Prime. They are super close.

M: Both are dry with moderate carbonation, to style. . . This part of the beer is easy to replicate.

O: They are both great beers.

It's close. . . really close. It's hard to say if the malt bill is perfectly cloned. There isn't enough malt going on in either beer. I'm happy enough with the malt bill though. There are some very slight differences with the hops, I already discussed them so I wont' go into it again. I feel like I'm really nit picking to find those differences. I might be interested in a bottle swap with anyone who will commit to posting an honest side by side. I'm comfortable enough with how close they are to say brew it yourself and post your own results.

 

[rjschroed]

Pictures:

 

[BrunstuckyJoe]

The White Rajah is filtered....does the Prime have that distinct aftertaste that Rajah does? It's the thing that makes it my favorite beer and I can pick it out of 100 beers. What changes to the recipe would you change to make it closer?

 

[rjschroed]

Yes it has that aftertaste. The taste difference is in the mid palate and is hard to explain. . . I AM nit picking. That being said changes:

Everything here is for a 12 gallon batch of beer. That allows me to transfer 5.5 into 2, 6 gallon carboys, which lets me put 5 full gallons into the keg (honestly with so many dry hops we ended up a little shy of 5 full gallons at the end. I've been hitting 72% efficiency lately so change your base grains according leave (I'd recommend leaving the specialty malt alone)
Malt bill. . .

28 lbs 2-row (I over shot OG just a little bit)
1 lbs briess red wheat
1 lbs c-40

I thought about subing some munich into the base malt or adding some c-pils or both. It'd probably work out alright but I'm keeping is simple for now. I've decided to use red wheat now. . . I found some interesting information out about red wheat vs. white wheat, let's just say I'm a red wheat believer now. You can draw your own conclusion: http://brewingwithbriess.com/Products/Wheat.htm

Hops:

1.75 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [13.90 %] (60 min) Hops 43.8 IBU
2.00 oz Centennial [8.70 %] (30 min) Hops 16.0 IBU
1.00 oz Amarillo [10.30 %] (15 min) Hops 4.9 IBU
2.00 oz Citra [13.90 %] (15 min) Hops 13.3 IBU
3.00 oz Citra [11.40 %] (0 min) Hops -
1.00 oz Amarillo [10.30 %] (0 min) Hops -
3.00 oz Centennial [10.00 %] (Dry Hop 10 days) Hops -
1.00 oz Amarillo [10.30 %] (Dry Hop 10 days) Hops -
3.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] (Dry Hop 10 days) Hops -
1.00 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] (Dry Hop 10 days) Hops -

I'd put a little more into the initial bittering addition. Reduced the amarillo through out and increased the centennial and reduced the citra dry hop additions to make the ratios look like this Columbus: Amarillo: Centennial: Citra 1:1:3:3. I realize it calculates at 78 IBU and the Raj is published at 70. . . I'm less interested in what either is "supposed to be" and more interested in what they taste like. The changes are minor.

I'll be getting more and more opinions on this over the coming weeks so things might change again but this is what I have for now.

 

[BrunstuckyJoe]

Did you force carb it or let it carb up in the bottle....I wonder if carbing in the bottle would change the taste.

 

[rjschroed]

Most people who keg their homebrew force carbonate. (My method is to hit it with 30 to 35 lbs, disconnect the co2, let it sit that way for a day or two and then hook it up at serving pressure, it takes 7-10 days to carb up this way. It works for me bc I have one regulator and I'm not into rushing my beers anyways) Most commercial breweries force carbonate also. I'm sure bottle conditioning would change the taste. For what its worth, I have no reason to believe that the commercial example I go and my beer are more than a week apart in age.

 

[sauce]

Just was made aware of this thread, thanks for your interest guys....a few thoughts:


The British flag in the label art is just an homage to the country of origin.

The grain bill is a lil off as are the hops. There are currently 5 hops in Rajah, with the recent addition of a new Zealand hop to stretch out the aforemntioned Citra. Her'es a couple hints....one hop that has been mentioned isnt used at all. As for malt, one base malt, one crystal type malt, one "specialty" malt and one non malt.

.....keep tryin, i will steer ya all in the right direction ;-)

JackK
Head Brewer
TBK Production Works

 

[rjschroed]

Just was made aware of this thread, thanks for your interest guys....a few thoughts:


The British flag in the label art is just an homage to the country of origin.

The grain bill is a lil off as are the hops. There are currently 5 hops in Rajah, with the recent addition of a new Zealand hop to stretch out the aforemntioned Citra. Her'es a couple hints....one hop that has been mentioned isnt used at all. As for malt, one base malt, one crystal type malt, one "specialty" malt and one non malt.

.....keep tryin, i will steer ya all in the right direction ;-)

JackK
Head Brewer
TBK Production Works

Thanks for the reply and the help. I've got a lot of different recipe variations floating around this thread. For my clarification, is this the recipe your giving us hints on?

28lbs 2-row
1lbs c-40
1lbs red wheat

1.75 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [13.90 %] (60 min) Hops 43.8 IBU
2.00 oz Centennial [8.70 %] (30 min) Hops 16.0 IBU
1.00 oz Amarillo [10.30 %] (15 min) Hops 4.9 IBU
2.00 oz Citra [13.90 %] (15 min) Hops 13.3 IBU
3.00 oz Citra [11.40 %] (0 min) Hops -
1.00 oz Amarillo [10.30 %] (0 min) Hops -
3.00 oz Centennial [10.00 %] (Dry Hop 10 days) Hops -
1.00 oz Amarillo [10.30 %] (Dry Hop 10 days) Hops -
3.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] (Dry Hop 10 days) Hops -
1.00 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] (Dry Hop 10 days) Hops -

If that is the case, I could see some sort of toasted malt in a small quantity instead of the wheat(Victory, Biscuit, or Melanoiden). Is the non malt your talking about is a simple sugar to help dry it out? I've been thinking about it more over the last few days and its possible that your using a more sharp bittering hop like Chinook. The hop I'm using that I've been playing around with getting rid of is amarillo. So, Chinook, Centennial, Citra, Columbus plus the NZ variety that I'd have to do some research on. The 5th hop that immediately came to mind for me was galaxy but that is an Australian variety, Nelson Sauvin is a NZ variety but I don't know how similar that is to citra. I'll have to do some more "research" later on tonight now that I've got some hints.

 

[ThomEHof]

Thanks for the reply and the help. I've got a lot of different recipe variations floating around this thread. For my clarification, is this the recipe your giving us hints on?

I'd ditch the Armarillo. BK tends to like hops that begin with the letter "C". It may be Chinook, or Cascade.

 

[BrunstuckyJoe]

I would think the Centennial is the culprit.....I taste the Amarillo.
And I've brewed with Galaxy, and it's similar to Citra in it's taste.
I do realize that Galaxy is Australian...I've had their firkins infused with Nelson Sauvin and they are really good.
I've probably drank more Rajah when I can get it than most people in this area.
I even named my female dobe "Rajah".

 

[Jrod]

Here are my thoughts. Based on the above comments and my email from the brewery I think its most likely 2row, c40, victory, and table sugar to dry it out. Hops are Centennial, Amarillo, Citra, (nelson,or galaxy), and maybe something like magnum to bitter. Any thoughs on that?

 

[rjschroed]

I thought I tasted amarillo in it too but after tasting what I have there may not be, At the very least it needs to either be reduced or removed from the dry hop. In my opinion, there is definitely classic centennial grapefruit in the flavor and the nose. Columbus might be the hop that doesn't belong. Columbus is a workhorse around my brewery but I am not really sure detect it in Rajah. Columbus is a pretty smooth bittering hop and in my recipe for Hoptimus Prime I either bittered with the wrong hop or not enough of it because the bittering was smoother than Rajah. I'm not for certain but my guess, NZ hop excluded, Chinook, Centennial, Amarillo, Citra. It seem we all agree on it being some combination of 4 of these 5 hops: Columbus, Chinook, Centennial, Amarillo, Citra. I don't know if this is helpful or not but TBK sells homebrew supplies. It seems to me they probably sell the same stuff they are using. Here is that list: http://www.thebrewkettle.com/bop/homebrewprice.pdf

I'm on board with 2-row, c-40, victory, sugar.

 

[BrunstuckyJoe]

Clear your msgs...it said it was full, rjschroed.

 

[BrunstuckyJoe]

I don't taste the nutty taste of the Victory. I think it's a wheat grain....in a small amt.

 

[BrunstuckyJoe]

I thought I tasted amarillo in it too but after tasting what I have there may not be, At the very least it needs to either be reduced or removed from the dry hop. In my opinion, there is definitely classic centennial grapefruit in the flavor and the nose. Columbus might be the hop that doesn't belong. Columbus is a workhorse around my brewery but I am not really sure detect it in Rajah. Columbus is a pretty smooth bittering hop and in my recipe for Hoptimus Prime I either bittered with the wrong hop or not enough of it because the bittering was smoother than Rajah. I'm not for certain but my guess, NZ hop excluded, Chinook, Centennial, Amarillo, Citra. It seem we all agree on it being some combination of 4 of these 5 hops: Columbus, Chinook, Centennial, Amarillo, Citra. I don't know if this is helpful or not but TBK sells homebrew supplies. It seems to me they probably sell the same stuff they are using. Here is that list: http://www.thebrewkettle.com/bop/homebrewprice.pdf

I'm on board with 2-row, c-40, victory, sugar.

I think you might be right about the Chinook instead of the Columbus for bittering.....so I'd agree with Chinook, Centennial, Citra, Amarillo and the nz variety....but I've used the Victory from there and get a distinct nutty taste to my beer.

 

[skibb]

Sauce! Thanks for being awesome enough to hop on these boards and interact with the home-brewing side of the craft community. We really do appreciate it!!!

 

[sauce]

The 5th hop that immediately came to mind for me was galaxy but that is an Australian variety, Nelson Sauvin is a NZ variety but I don't know how similar that is to citra. I'll have to do some more "research" later on tonight now that I've got some hints.

Yep, Nelson

I'd ditch the Armarillo. BK tends to like hops that begin with the letter "C". It may be Chinook, or Cascade.

Yep, no Amarillo...but neither of those "C"s make the cut. There is and "S" in small quantities, not the obvious one though

It seem we all agree on it being some combination of 4 of these 5 hops: Columbus, Chinook, Centennial, Amarillo, Citra

Guess you now know your 2 for 5

I don't taste the nutty taste of the Victory. I think it's a wheat grain....in a small amt.

nope...no Victory

Sauce! Thanks for being awesome enough to hop on these boards and interact with the home-brewing side of the craft community. We really do appreciate it!!!

No prob...was a home brewer, probably still would be if the the wifey would allow it....heck, the only reason she let me turn pro was because I made so little as a graphic designer it wasnt much of a pay cut....and I promised not to stink up the house brewing anymore

 

[Jrod]

I like puzzles.

Now I'm envisioning something like this.
2-row
C-40
White Wheat
Sugar

and something like this for the hops. I'd have to work out the additions when my software is nearby.

Columbus
Centennial
Citra
Nelson
Summit

 

[sauce]

I like puzzles.

Now I'm envisioning something like this.
2-row
C-40
White Wheat
Sugar

and something like this for the hops. I'd have to work out the additions when my software is nearby.

Columbus
Centennial
Citra
Nelson
Summit

Ding Ding Ding...on the hops, now ya gotta work on the ratios and additions.

BZZZZZZZ (insert Price is Right wrong answer sound effect) only thing correct on the grain bill is the 2row

 

[Jrod]

Ding Ding Ding...on the hops, now ya gotta work on the ratios and additions.

BZZZZZZZ (insert Price is Right wrong answer sound effect) only thing correct on the grain bill is the 2row

Oh man I hate that noise. Usually followed by the Waa Waah Waahhh noise.

With the grain bill now I'm just stabbing in the dark because It's been at least 3 months since I've had a bottle.

2 Row
C-20 or Caravienne
Malanoidin
Orange Blossom Honey

 

[BrunstuckyJoe]

My guess would be 2 row, c-20, cara-pils and dextrose or flaked wheat.
BTW, I'm having a blast with this.

I would also guess the summit is only in the dry hop....with Columbus as the bittering hop....with citra/centennial, nelson/centennial as flavoring...
and citra, nelson, centennial, summit as dry hops.

 

[rjschroed]

Dextrose (aka corn sugar) doesn't make sense with cara-pils. They have opposite affects. Also, if c-20 is your Cara-pils isn't a specialty malt, it's a caramel malt, by that logic we should also rule out things like cara-munich and cara-vienne. c-20 makes a lot of sense if your going to use a "specialty" malt. I have to believe it to be a toasted malt of the lighter variety and not much of it. Since we know it's not victory, my guesses would be:

biscuit, which is very similar to victory
melanoidin, which I would use with extreme restraint. . . like %1-2 of the grist. (It also happens to reportedly be the only non-base malt in dreadnaught)

I would love to consider caramunich and caravienna as an alternate to c-20 though.

I'll put together a recipe with hops and grains a little later tonight for sauce to give us hints on what is right and wrong.

 

[BrunstuckyJoe]

Good deal....you put a lot more thought into it than me....how about my hop schedule?
I'm definitely thinking c-20 though. Never used biscuit....does it impart a nutty flavor like Victory?

 

[rjschroed]

I don't feel great about this recipe. It's hard to design a recipe with some ingredients you have never used. Summit is a hop I am unfamiliar with and reports are very mixed on it's use (garlic/onion vs. citrus/tangerine). I feel pretty good about the use of the nelson, centennial and citra. . . I think I'm under utilizing columbus and perhaps completely misusing summit. The grain bill is a shot in the dark, completely off the beaten path of what we have been doing. . . it'd be interesting though.

Amt Name Type # %/IBU
27 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 91.5 %
1 lbs Caramunich II Malt (46.0 SRM) Grain 2 3.4 %
8.0 oz Melanoiden Malt (20.0 SRM) Grain 3 1.7 %
1 lbs Corn Sugar (Dextrose) (0.0 SRM) Sugar 4 3.4 %
1.25 oz Summit [17.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 5 39.1 IBUs
2.00 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 6 18.8 IBUs
2.00 oz Citra [11.40 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 7 11.2 IBUs
1.00 oz Nelson Sauvin [12.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 8 5.9 IBUs
2.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 9 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Nelson Sauvin [12.00 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 10 0.0 IBUs
3.00 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Dry Hop 10.0 Days Hop 12 0.0 IBUs
3.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 10.0 Days Hop 13 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] - Dry Hop 10.0 Days Hop 14 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Nelson Sauvin [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 10.0 Days Hop 15 0.0 IBUs

 

[rjschroed]

Good deal....you put a lot more thought into it than me....how about my hop schedule?
I'm definitely thinking c-20 though. Never used biscuit....does it impart a nutty flavor like Victory?

I like your hop schedule as a direct alternative to mine. I was either gonna do what I did or something along the lines of what you have. Biscuit and Victory are very similar in my opinion. . . biscuit might be a little less nutty.