Which yeast is your favorite dry yeast for making mead?

[RPh_Guy]

How would I use my meter instead of the indicator solution? What ph is the tipping point?

pH 8.2

AZ is right, measuring acidity in mead with titration isn't particularly accurate. I think it might still be useful information though, and would help diagnose your cherry juice issue.

Supertasting is not so much a generic thing as specific to individual tastes

Are you saying tasting ability isn't genetic??

But it's certainly true that such flavours are not confined to bacteria.

Fair enough. That just hasn't been my experience.

 

[Maylar]

Thanks! I just now ordered this acid test kit from Amazon, which looks to be about the same:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0064OFUCY/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

How would I use my meter instead of the indicator solution? What ph is the tipping point? With cherry juice, with its dark color, it may be a bit tricky to notice when the indicator solution changes.

I use that same kit, but instead of watching for color change I add the reagent until pH is 8.2. That's the trip point. I've been using it with ciders for a few years and I seem to get very consistent results, though there's a conversion factor for malic acid (apples). TA measurements are meaningless with honey though (so I'm told).

 

[NeverDie]

I just now came across WLP099 Super High Gravity Ale Yeast and I wonder if it would ferment a mead faster than other yeasts, which might slow down as a 14% ABV starts to approach their alcohol tolerance. In contrast, the alcohol tolerance of WLP099 is 25% (!). I have no real interest in going any higher than 14% ABV though.

Because 69F is the high end of its ideal temperature range, I won't be including it in the yeast roundup, but I'd be curious to know for the future, should I ever dabble in temperature control.

https://www.whitelabs.com/yeast-bank/wlp099-super-high-gravity-ale-yeast

 

[RPh_Guy]

I just now came across WLP099 Super High Gravity Ale Yeast and I wonder if it would ferment a mead faster than other yeasts, which might slow down as a 14% ABV starts to approach their alcohol tolerance. In contrast, the alcohol tolerance of WLP099 is 25% (!). I have no real interest in going any higher than 14% ABV though.

Because 69F is the high end of its ideal temperature range, I won't be including it in the yeast roundup, but I'd be curious to know for the future, should I ever dabble in temperature control.

https://www.whitelabs.com/yeast-bank/wlp099-super-high-gravity-ale-yeast

http://www.brewboard.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=44979&view=findpost&p=519053

 

[NeverDie]

On of the most interesting results from this yeast roundup may turn out to be the degree of flocculation that the different yeasts are able to achieve. For instance, I had always thought that S-04 was a good flocculator, but compared to the list I mentioned above, it's just not that great. Same for CdB and Fleishmann's. It does, of course, flocculate a lot, but there's a cloudiness that remains, whereas the test batches for the five yeasts I listed above are totally clear. I'm surprised S-04 and some of the others didn't make the list. I'll continue giving it more time and see how it goes.

Anyhow, yesterday I received the QA23 yeast in the mail. It's the last yeast I intend to include in the roundup. I started it brewing yesterday evening. Reportedly it flocculates as well as D47, so I'm keen to see if that turns out to be true.

Question: does degassing help reduce the cloudiness? I should be receiving a vacuum chamber today that's large enough to contain any of my test vessels, so I'm debating whether to help some of the cloudy batches become clear by a 30 minute stint under strong vacuum or whether to just let them continue naturally. What do you all think?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Have you given them any extra calcium? It's important for floccing.

I'd tend to leave everything "as is" so that you know you're comparing like with like, but obviously that's up to you.

 

[NeverDie]

Have you given them any extra calcium? It's important for floccing.

Thanks! I did not know that. What source of calcium should I add and how much and when? Is it too late already?

 

[Maylar]

Not degassing, but stirring the yeast lees does help clearing. Seems kinda non-intuitive that making the mead cloudy on purpose actually helps it to clear eventually. For me, I will use a fining agent pretty much every time. I've had meads stay hazy for months otherwise.

 

[NeverDie]

For me, I will use a fining agent pretty much every time. I've had meads stay hazy for months otherwise.

If it comes to that, which fining agents do you like the best?

I presume that the texas spring water I used contained calcium, since there's a lot of limestone in texas. Whether it's enough or not is another question. Apparently it was enough for the 5 yeasts that were great flocculators. However, from reading some of the wyeast literature, it appears that flocculation factors are highly yeast strain dependent.

I'll try shaking up the fermentation vessels on the cloudy meads, which I presume is similar to the stirring of the must that Maylar referred to.

If that doesn't work, then guess I could try either calcium chloride or fines. Of the two, which would be the least impactful on flavor? Or would I not notice an impact on flavor in either case?

I noticed when I added tannin to a previous experimental batch it helped clarify a lot, but that clearly also affects the flavor quite a bit.

What about refrigerating it? That seems fairly benign. Or would the cloudiness just return when I return it to room temperature?

 

[bob1852]

If it comes to that, which fining agents do you like the best?

Prior to bottling, I get good results with Superkleer.

You can also use bentonite in the primary, which works to drop a lot of yeast and other sediment out after the fermentation is done, prior to your first racking.

Note that if you're using pectin enzyme for fruit meads, wait 24 hours after adding pectin enzyme before adding bentonite, otherwise the pectin enzyme won't be as effective.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Thanks! I did not know that. What source of calcium should I add and how much and when? Is it too late already?

In the beer world the malt supplies some, and is supplemented with calcium chloride or calcium sulphate (gypsum), depending on which anion is wanted - the ratio of chloride to sulphate changes the expression of bitterness in beer. I don't know how mead people approach the problem, I suspect just by using strains that drop well.

I presume that the texas spring water I used contained calcium, since there's a lot of limestone in texas. Whether it's enough or not is another question. Apparently it was enough for the 5 yeasts that were great flocculators. However, from reading some of the wyeast literature, it appears that flocculation factors are highly yeast strain dependent.

Yep, you get everything from British cask strains which drop before they've even finished fermenting, to hefe yeast that never drop at all, and everything in between - a typical brewery yeast may have several strains with different floccing behaviour, Guinness has at least four from memory. But if you have a mix then the good floccers will take the poor floccers down with them.

Looking very quickly at Texas geology, it looks like the Edwards aquifer around Austin is very limestone-y so calcium rich, whereas from what I can tell the Ogallala aquifer to the east is far less so. Again, I don't know how mead people approach these things.

What about refrigerating it? That seems fairly benign. Or would the cloudiness just return when I return it to room temperature?

There's two aspects, at least from a beer POV. There's chill haze, which is protein that precipitates (but doesn't settle) to form a haze at low temperatures, and then redissolves once it warms up. There's also using cold to help drop out the yeast, which is more of a one-way thing as long as you don't stir it up afterwards.

 

[Maylar]

Yup, bentonite in primary works pretty well. Especially if you cold crash too. Basically put it in as dry powder a couple days after ferment starts, then when it's done fermenting refrigerate to help the bentonite work. SuperKleer is good but it's a liquid in 2 pouches, enough for 5 gallons. Dialing it back for a smaller batch is a real PITA. Not resealable either, and rather expensive.

 

[Maylar]

What about refrigerating it? That seems fairly benign. Or would the cloudiness just return when I return it to room temperature?

Yes, it does help. And it doesn't revert when warm unless the ferment wasn't finished.

 

[RPh_Guy]

bentonite in primary works pretty well.

I'm thinking this is why you find that stirring helps it clear. I'm not sure that's always the case without bentonite.(?)

 

[NeverDie]

In the beer world the malt supplies some, and is supplemented with calcium chloride or calcium sulphate (gypsum), depending on which anion is wanted - the ratio of chloride to sulphate changes the expression of bitterness in beer. I don't know how mead people approach the problem, I suspect just by using strains that drop well.



Yep, you get everything from British cask strains which drop before they've even finished fermenting, to hefe yeast that never drop at all, and everything in between - a typical brewery yeast may have several strains with different floccing behaviour, Guinness has at least four from memory. But if you have a mix then the good floccers will take the poor floccers down with them.

Looking very quickly at Texas geology, it looks like the Edwards aquifer around Austin is very limestone-y so calcium rich, whereas from what I can tell the Ogallala aquifer to the east is far less so. Again, I don't know how mead people approach these things.



There's two aspects, at least from a beer POV. There's chill haze, which is protein that precipitates (but doesn't settle) to form a haze at low temperatures, and then redissolves once it warms up. There's also using cold to help drop out the yeast, which is more of a one-way thing as long as you don't stir it up afterwards.

Full disclosure: I suppose using Ozark spring water is a flaw in my experiment, because I didn't buy all of it at once (the number of different yeast strains to be tested kept increasing!) and in theory different batches of spring water could come from different springs from around Texas. How likely that is, I couldn't say. Now causing me much vexation, Ozark doesn't label the specific spring each bottle came from. Ah well, live and learn. I hadn't really thought about it until now.

 

[NeverDie]

I'm thinking this is why you find that stirring helps it clear. I'm not sure that's always the case without bentonite.(?)

Maybe it forces more yeast collisions. The wyeast literature says that some strains of yeast cell naturally repel one another, but if they collide their hairy projections entangle. Thus, after colliding, they stick together like velcro.

Kinda analogous to the strong nuclear force I suppose.

I'd like to get my ducks in a row and have a plan in case I need to do something to reach a final judgment on how well a particular yeast strain flocculates. If I had to decide today, I'd probably just pick from the list of 5 that are great flocculators. That's without tasting them though, and clearly that's important too.

 

[NeverDie]

Full disclosure: I suppose using Ozark spring water is a flaw in my experiment, because I didn't buy all of it at once (the number of different yeast strains to be tested kept increasing!) and in theory different batches of spring water could come from different springs from around Texas. How likely that is, I couldn't say. Now causing me much vexation, Ozark doesn't label the specific spring each bottle came from. Ah well, live and learn. I hadn't really thought about it until now.

I do have a Hach's hardwater drop count test kit that can give me the number of grains of calcium in water. I suppose I could maybe use it to test each batch of mead to discern whether there's any difference in the water calcium amonst the different test batches. That might reduce the uncertainty of whether differences in calcium, if any, are a possible source of differences in flocculation. It appears, though, that different yeast strains may require different amounts of calcium anyway to do good flocculation, so by itself it may not render a final verdict. It might just be that the spring water, even if all the same, had ample calcium for some strains to flocculate, but not others.

 

[NeverDie]

I suppose a key question to answer though is whether the cloudiness/haze apparent in some batches is from unflocculated yeast or from some kind of protein. How to tell? Do I need to use a microscope and count the number of yeast cells in suspension? Or is there an easier way?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Assuming you mean the Nestlé stuff, an analysis is here. The key ones are Ca 1.8-5.9ppm, Cl 3-25ppm, SO4 1.4-6.2.

So almost nothing. Typically brewers would have 100-150ppm of each in the mash for a bitter or IPA (you also need it for the activity of enzymes that chop up starch), less in a lager. 50ppm is probably a good target to make sure that if a yeast is going to drop, it will drop. It's also pH dependent, acidity inhibits flocculation.

 

[bob1852]

SuperKleer is good but it's a liquid in 2 pouches, enough for 5 gallons. Dialing it back for a smaller batch is a real PITA. Not resealable either, and rather expensive.

I wait to use it until I have 5 small batches ready for final clearing.

I'm sure you know, but for others that don't, they also sell each SuperKleer component in bigger bottles (liter?), but I haven't gone down that road yet...

As far as cost, it's still far cheaper than the honey that's in a batch!

 

[bob1852]

Or is there an easier way?

For stubborn haze, bench trials with various fining agents (including cold crashing) can be very effective.

I had a tupelo traditional that just wouldn't clear no matter what I threw at it....in the end I didn't care about the appearance that much as the flavor/aroma was outstanding.

 

[NeverDie]

Assuming you mean the Nestlé stuff, an analysis is here. The key ones are Ca 1.8-5.9ppm, Cl 3-25ppm, SO4 1.4-6.2.

Interesting report! So even though it's texas spring water, it's surprisingly deficient in calcium content. Well, in that case, adding calcium, as per your suggestions, seems like it's worth a shot.....

 

[Maylar]

I wait to use it until I have 5 small batches ready for final clearing.

I'm sure you know, but for others that don't, they also sell each SuperKleer component in bigger bottles (liter?), but I haven't gone down that road yet...

As far as cost, it's still far cheaper than the honey that's in a batch!

Cheaper than "Plan B" too...

Although the mead has to be already fined before using it, else it clogs instantly.

 

[NeverDie]

Assuming you mean the Nestlé stuff, an analysis is here. The key ones are Ca 1.8-5.9ppm, Cl 3-25ppm, SO4 1.4-6.2.

So almost nothing. Typically brewers would have 100-150ppm of each in the mash for a bitter or IPA (you also need it for the activity of enzymes that chop up starch), less in a lager. 50ppm is probably a good target to make sure that if a yeast is going to drop, it will drop. It's also pH dependent, acidity inhibits flocculation.

So, which would it be better to add? Calcium chloride or Calcium sulfate? Or both? Or something else altogether?

 

[FunkyMunk]

I would not add calcium, personally. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but you will throw off the pH, and I just don't think you really need that much for the yeast to flocculate.

The September/October 2015 issue of Zymurgy had an experiment where different water profiles were used in a traditional mead, and the soft water and distilled water ended up producing better mead than the hard water profiles, which were noted for increased phenolic flavors and being "flat, hot, and waxy". Calcium actually was higher in all of the final meads compared to the initial water profiles, which I guess is contributed by the honey and/or the yeast. All of the meads including the one made from distilled water looked perfectly clear (DV10 yeast).

 

[NeverDie]

I would not add calcium, personally. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but you will throw off the pH, and I just don't think you really need that much for the yeast to flocculate.

The September/October 2015 issue of Zymurgy had an experiment where different water profiles were used in a traditional mead, and the soft water and distilled water ended up producing better mead than the hard water profiles, which were noted for increased phenolic flavors and being "flat, hot, and waxy". Calcium actually was higher in all of the final meads compared to the initial water profiles, which I guess is contributed by the honey and/or the yeast. All of the meads including the one made from distilled water looked perfectly clear (DV10 yeast).

Hmm... My DV10 doesn't look perfectly clear. At least not yet.

 

[NeverDie]

It's strange that my results are so completely different from what's reported here: https://www.meadmakr.com/mead-yeast-primer/
which says that 71B and 1388 are poor flocculators, whereas in this experiment so far they are two of my best.

 

[NeverDie]

Meanwhile, EC-1118 today joined the ranks of the clear flocculators in my experiment. It had gotten a much later start than the others, which I guess explains why it wasn't in the earlier list.

 

[CKuhns]

Limited yeast expierence here so take this for what its worth. S04&5, EC1118, Wyeast1388, D47, Cote Des Blanc, Premier Cuvee, Omega Hot Head and Fleishmans Bread Yeast. All have produced crystal clear Meads using the following... 30 to 90 days in tertiary, cold crash at 40 degf for 5 days, KC Super Kleer for 3 days and if still cloudy pectic Enzyme. With that said, S04&5, ec1118, D47, Cote Des Blanc and Prenier Cuvee produced a nice dense lees that is easily racked from. The remainder were a bit to a lot "fluffier".

 

[CKuhns]

I feel the need to comment on the Zymurgy article about using distilled or filtered water. My personal opinion is just the apposite. I believev that distilled and overly filtered water is kind of flat and lifeless and that IMO transfers to the flavor profile of your Mead. Spring water or untreated well water is my preference.