Which carboy to use for 5g of cider?

[Barkingshins]

I am going to pitching WLP775 to 5 gallons of raw cider here in the next day or so. I have read that fermenting cider does not krausen like beer does due to it having far less protein. I am wondering if it will be ok to just use one of my 5-gallon carboys as a primary fermenter or is a 6.5 gallon carboy still recommended. I only have one 6.5 gallon and several 5 gallon carboys so I'd prefer not to tie up my 6.5 gallon if possible. Thoughts?

 

[TimsfamousCider]

Go for the 5. You won't see much foam. And it is easy enough to clean up if you do.

 

[Jacob_Marley]

The 5 is vastly preferable. You want *only* enough headspace to avoid overflow during the primary fermentation and practically *no* headspace in the secondary (say, about 1 inch or so). Because of the low alcohol content, higher pH and lack of sulfites, it is even more important to limit oxygen exposure in cider production than in fermentations such as wine.

 

[Barkingshins]

That's what I wanted to hear! Thank you very much.

-Brian

 

[Barkingshins]

it is even more important to limit oxygen exposure in cider production than in fermentations such as wine.

Limiting exposure to oxygen only becomes necessary once fermentation has begun correct? I'm assuming that I still need to oxygenate when I pitch my yeast.

 

[WineChief]

Limiting exposure to oxygen only becomes necessary once fermentation has begun correct? I'm assuming that I still need to oxygenate when I pitch my yeast.

That is correct.

 

[Barkingshins]

Perfect. Thank you.

 

[Jacob_Marley]

Limiting exposure to oxygen only becomes necessary once fermentation has begun correct? I'm assuming that I still need to oxygenate when I pitch my yeast.

Yup .. that's correct.
In a "bucket primary" you will usually have more than enough oxygen for the yeast because of the surface area exposed to the air. In a restricted-top primary like a carboy or jug you may want to introduce additional oxygen by shaking or stirring just prior to pitching. Note that it is *not* absolutely necessary to oxygenate, and you'll find out quickly enough whether your yeast is going to get going without it ... but particularly with cider I want to see the yeast get going without too much delay. I do this with ciders and meads. Sometimes it is more necessary than others.

Helping the yeast like this is mostly a consideration for musts which are particularly low pH (ie. high acid) ... low nutrient ... started in a cold room ... or using a yeast which is not well matched to the room temp; just to give the yeast a better chance of prompt success (using a starter is a good idea in these conditions as well).
Cider tends to be low in nutrients and as well will not have the benefit of high alcohol nor sulfites ... so I want to see the yeast get going promptly.

But once you get fermentation going, excess oxygen contact is definitely not desirable. The only time you might oxygenate after that is if your fermentation stalls.

 

[GinKings]

Limiting exposure to oxygen only becomes necessary once fermentation has begun correct? I'm assuming that I still need to oxygenate when I pitch my yeast.

I think I would say that limiting oxygen exposure becomes necessary after fermentation has ended. I don't consider it an issue during fermentation. Oxygen is beneficial during the early stages of fermentation. Once the fermentation gets going, there is CO2 coming out of the fermenting cider, so any headspace in a carboy or bucket is quickly purged of oxygen.

I don't think oxygenating a cider prior to pitching is as critical as in a beer, but I do oxygenate my ciders. I would add oxygen from an oxy tank, air pump, or through splashing and shaking. I don't think surface area of the fermenter makes much difference.

 

[Jacob_Marley]

I think I would say that limiting oxygen exposure becomes necessary after fermentation has ended. I don't consider it an issue during fermentation. Oxygen is beneficial during the early stages of fermentation. Once the fermentation gets going, there is CO2 coming out of the fermenting cider, so any headspace in a carboy or bucket is quickly purged of oxygen.

Yes there is a level of protection ... in fact, in a bucket fermenter the CO2 being off-gassed is what is relied upon to protect the surface.
However, this protection is only sufficiently present during the initial, more vigorous primary fermentation. As soon as fermentation slows down the must needs to be protected ... and definitely in the secondary fermenter with an airlock. Headspace is a definite risk as the wine is being held beyond the initial fermentation ... particularly with high pH, low alcohol, non-sulfited musts like cider.

 

[GinKings]

Yes there is a level of protection ... in fact, in a bucket fermenter the CO2 being off-gassed is what is relied upon to protect the surface.
However, this protection is only sufficiently present during the initial, more vigorous primary fermentation. As soon as fermentation slows down the must needs to be protected ... and definitely in the secondary fermenter with an airlock. Headspace is a definite risk as the wine is being held beyond the initial fermentation ... particularly with high pH, low alcohol, non-sulfited musts like cider.

If the "bucket fermenter" you refer to has a lid and airlock, which it should, then I wouldn't worry about oxygen throughout fermentation. Where is the oxygen going to come from unless you take the lid off?

 

[Jacob_Marley]

If the "bucket fermenter" you refer to has a lid and airlock, which it should, then I wouldn't worry about oxygen throughout fermentation. Where is the oxygen going to come from unless you take the lid off?

Nah ... no lid and airlock. My buckets and brutes are topless eek
Maybe covered bucket fermenters are more typical of brewing (?) ... I've been mostly a winemaker and don’t own any.
You're right though, an airlock on a bucket primary would certainly help.

That having been said, even in a carboy with an airlock, headspace and oxygen contact is an issue. You’re not likely to have a batch go south from a day or two of large headspace, but even quite small amounts of oxygen contact increases the chances for oxidized aroma and flavor as well as spoilage organisms like acetic acid bacteria. This comes from opening the carboy as well as minute leakage (usually at the stopper) over the longer term. Especially for the larger volumes in bulk storage this is even more an issue. Though I don’t do it myself, larger vintners (and some small ones too) flush any headspace with an inert gas like argon or nitrogen as extra insurance. (for just flushing headspace, CO2 does the trick too)
Certainly to each their own ... but methinks the more best-practices one follows the easier it is to get good results. One thing for sure, it just cracks the elastic in my shorts any time I've had to dump a batch.