When to use US-05 vs. S-04?

[stz]

Beer was pretty much done within a day but left in primary for a week. Racked to secondary today and hit with gelatin just because, but don't feel it needed it. Beer is clear, dry as anything, tastes crisp and clean and formed a hard, compact cake. Weather has risen as high as 88F over the last week, but I'm sure it was long done by then.

 

[roastquake]

I'm pretty sure s-04 is the Whitbread strain, I only use it for English styles. I use us-05 for everything else except Belgian (t-58) and non-American wheat beers (wb-06 or Dansatar Munich). And even though Scotland is on the same land-mass as England, I think us-05 is a better choice for Scottish ales, it lets the malt really shine and doesnt really throw yeasty flavors. Occasionally I'll make a hybrid German style with S-23 lager yeast but us-05 is good for that too.

 

[Sevenal]

That's a big deal to me!

I will often use S04 if my fermentation temperatures will be under 64 degrees, as I find that it's pretty "clean" at cool temperatures but if it gets the least bit above 65, it does get the typical English esters. Ironically, S05 can throw a few esters UNDER 64 degrees! But stays really clean over 65 degrees.

I do love the way S04 clears a beer so that I get crystal clear beer in a week using it.

I use S04 in several American IPAs, I just really have to control the fermentation temperature.

Thanks for the info concerning fermentation temp comparisons.
It validates my recent 6 gal batch outcome. I had to loan one of my refrigerators to my daughter. This resulted in me having to hijack my ferm chamber/chest freezer for food. I brewed a version of the incredible Zombie Dust Clone and used S-05 with inside the house temperatures of 70 degrees. Got a dryer beer with more grapefruit than the S-04 from previous batches. Of course this was a preliminary taste from the gravity measurement jar. We will see after the second fermentation and four oz of C dryhops. My all time favorite clone recipe and just getting better or at least enjoyably variable as I tweak this great and well proven recipe.
Gratitudes!

 

[RM-MN]

Thanks for the info concerning fermentation temp comparisons.
It validates my recent 5 gal batch outcome. I had to loan one of my refrigerators to my daughter. This resulted in me having to hijack my ferm chamber/chest freezer for food. I brewed a version of the incredible Zombie Dust Clone and used S-05 with inside the house temperatures of 70 degrees. Got a dryer beer with more grapefruit than the S-04 from previous batches. Of course this was a preliminary taste from the gravity measurement jar. We will see after the second fermentation and four oz of C dryhops. My all time favorite clone recipe and just getting better or at least enjoyably variable as I tweak this great and well proven recipe.
Gratitudes!

What kind of fermentable will you be adding to get a second fermentation? If you aren't adding a fermentable it is arguably better to dry hop in the primary fermenter.

 

[Sevenal]

Expanding my options and exploring the nuances of creative brewing methodology. I had the medium gravity 6 gal batch fermenting for 21 days and have always popped the lid and dry hopped after active fermentation. This time I thought I would dry hop in a clean secondary for 5 days.
A couple things motivated this, wanting to rinse the yeast without the additional hop matter and the hops are over a year old and I wanted to capture a more recent dry hop exposure just prior to kegging. I usually don’t do a second fermentation at all. Make any sense to anyone?

 

[Toxxyc]

OK so another necro on this old thread. I'm planning an IRA and I've got the grain bill and hops down to what I'd like it to be. The yeast though...

I see a TON of recipes recommending US-05 as the preferred yeast for this beer. It's been pointed out that S-04 might be a better chance, specially because it is supposed to not attenuate that far. However, I've had numerous ales ferment down to 1.006 with S-04. Yes, they were mashed really low for extended times, but I don't want my IRA to end anywhere near there.

I'm hoping for my IRA to stop around 1.012, down from 1.050 in the recipe I'm planning. For that I want to mash a lot higher, but it still doesn't answer my question.

What yeast would be best for this beer? I'm leaning toward S-04, but I'm not sure.

Oh yes, and as another PS, I also haven't experienced this rapid dropping clear with S-04 as explained here. And I've made a ton of beers with S-04 lately.

 

[Miraculix]

OK so another necro on this old thread. I'm planning an IRA and I've got the grain bill and hops down to what I'd like it to be. The yeast though...

I see a TON of recipes recommending US-05 as the preferred yeast for this beer. It's been pointed out that S-04 might be a better chance, specially because it is supposed to not attenuate that far. However, I've had numerous ales ferment down to 1.006 with S-04. Yes, they were mashed really low for extended times, but I don't want my IRA to end anywhere near there.

I'm hoping for my IRA to stop around 1.012, down from 1.050 in the recipe I'm planning. For that I want to mash a lot higher, but it still doesn't answer my question.

What yeast would be best for this beer? I'm leaning toward S-04, but I'm not sure.

Oh yes, and as another PS, I also haven't experienced this rapid dropping clear with S-04 as explained here. And I've made a ton of beers with S-04 lately.

IRA means Irish red ale? If so, don't use s04, it is a great stout yeast if you like it a bit fruitier, but an Irish red should be fairly clean imo. So use something clean, even 3470 warm would be a good choice. Nottingham comes also to mind, but Keep it a bit cooler. 05 should also work. I like 04, but only for stouts. I recently brewed a test ale at 16c with only base malt and bittering hops to really be able to evaluate s04 at the lower end of it's temperature range. I got a tiny bit of sulphur there and the rest also did not impress me much. So in other words, fermenting a stout at room temperature with it is a marvelous idea. For other beers,I got other yeasts.


Just in case you meant Indian red ale, that could work. Depending on your hops and how they play along with the fruity esters when fermented at the upper part of the temperature range (don't go low with it, it's just boring and doesn't bring any positive impact).

 

[Toxxyc]

I meant Irish Red Ale, yes. I like the idea of US-05 because it's clean, but on the other hand S-04 should leave a bit more residual sweetness, which I think will highlight the malty flavours very nicely. Or am I approaching it wrong here?

 

[OG-wan Kenobi]

I would use the 04 for the Irish Red Ale the 05 will make it more dry and I would prefer it to be more sweet but it's preference you can use either strain they wont ruin your beer.

 

[Miraculix]

I meant Irish Red Ale, yes. I like the idea of US-05 because it's clean, but on the other hand S-04 should leave a bit more residual sweetness, which I think will highlight the malty flavours very nicely. Or am I approaching it wrong here?

I would just mash higher and use 05. I don't think that the esters of 04 are good for an Irish red...

 

[OG-wan Kenobi]

I would just mash higher and use 05. I don't think that the esters of 04 are good for an Irish red...

Depends on fermentation temps

 

[Miraculix]

Depends on fermentation temps

Na not really... I just tried fermenting it at the lowest end of the range and the taste I got from it was not nice. It wasn't clean but it also wasn't nicely English style ester heaven. Somehow muddled and just not pleasant. Not a fan of it. I think I'd go with Nottingham at medium temperature and mash really high.

Or I would go with 05 and also mash high, if I wanted it to have a lower attenuation.

 

[OG-wan Kenobi]

Na not really... I just tried fermenting it at the lowest end of the range and the taste I got from it was not nice. It wasn't clean but it also wasn't nicely English style ester heaven. Somehow muddled and just not pleasant. Not a fan of it. I think I'd go with Nottingham at medium temperature and mash really high.

Or I would go with 05 and also mash high, if I wanted it to have a lower attenuation.

I find at low temps 60'ish F 04 finishes very clean for me but at around 70F I find 05 to finish cleaner, but we are all different

I never touch Nottingham used it twice years ago in Northern Brewer kits and hated it gave me an intense ester flavor that turned me off and made a mess in the blow off tube I have never thought about it since

 

[Miraculix]

I find at low temps 60'ish F 04 finishes very clean for me but at around 70F I find 05 to finish cleaner, but we are all different

I never touch Nottingham used it twice years ago in Northern Brewer kits and hated it gave me an intense ester flavor that turned me off and made a mess in the blow off tube I have never thought about it since

Hmmmm there was something wrong then. Notti is usually really clean. It mutes hops quite a bit but that would fit well to an Irish red. But other than that, it's too boring for me. It's also ok for a clean stout. It floccs well.... But again... Booooring.

 

[OG-wan Kenobi]

Hmmmm there was something wrong then. Notti is usually really clean. It mutes hops quite a bit but that would fit well to an Irish red. But other than that, it's too boring for me. It's also ok for a clean stout. It floccs well.... But again... Booooring.

It was probably 10 years ago when I used to ferment in the storage closet under the steps in the apartment we had back then my guess would be temps got away from me but I can still taste it when I think about it - YUCK. I am a very big fan of boring yeast LOL keep those Belgian beers away from me I cannot appreciate them with those esters.

 

[Miraculix]

It was probably 10 years ago when I used to ferment in the storage closet under the steps in the apartment we had back then my guess would be temps got away from me but I can still taste it when I think about it - YUCK. I am a very big fan of boring yeast LOL keep those Belgian beers away from me I cannot appreciate them with those esters.

Sounds like it, notty likes it cool. Actually...I think it is probably the best choice of dry yeast out there for an Irish red, if you can keep it at around 18c or below. The only thing is, it has a constantly high attenuation, which I personally like, but might not be what op is looking for.

 

[D.B.Moody]

You could consider S-33, the old Edme strain. Lower attenuation; it produces nice British ales. It doesn't clear as well as Nottingham or US05. I brewed an Irish red ale Sunday using S-33.
Edit: I checked my notes; I've brewed my Irish red ale 6 times since 2011: 4 times with Nottingham, 1 time with Munton's, and 1 time (this Sunday) with S-33.

 

[Toxxyc]

OK you guys aren't helping here

I've got S-04 and US-05 here. I've also got Voss (Kveik) but I'm not sure it's suitable to the style (too fruity).

So essentially I want to try S-04 or US-05, because that's what I have.

On the other hand, I also have some lager yeasts. I've got S-23 and also a house-brand "german pilsner yeast" around here. The pilsner one I've used with a pils and also have a marzen on the go with it, and it's a very good yeast (albeit VERY slow). Would that not work as well? Sure, then I guess it won't be an IRA, but at least it'll be clean?

 

[Miraculix]

OK you guys aren't helping here

I've got S-04 and US-05 here. I've also got Voss (Kveik) but I'm not sure it's suitable to the style (too fruity).

So essentially I want to try S-04 or US-05, because that's what I have.

On the other hand, I also have some lager yeasts. I've got S-23 and also a house-brand "german pilsner yeast" around here. The pilsner one I've used with a pils and also have a marzen on the go with it, and it's a very good yeast (albeit VERY slow). Would that not work as well? Sure, then I guess it won't be an IRA, but at least it'll be clean?

A lager yeast would work perfectly if you ask me!

 

[Toxxyc]

OK that makes it simple. I've got the Marzen on the go, and I'll be crashing it probably at the end of the week. After racking it'll be bulk aged for a bit (racked off the yeast cake) but then I'll just pour the IRA wort straight onto that yeast cake. Both are darker beers so I'm not worried about the colour, and the Marzen was really lightly bittered to the hop influence will be minimal.

Yeah let's do that. That sounds like a plan!

 

[Miraculix]

OK that makes it simple. I've got the Marzen on the go, and I'll be crashing it probably at the end of the week. After racking it'll be bulk aged for a bit (racked off the yeast cake) but then I'll just pour the IRA wort straight onto that yeast cake. Both are darker beers so I'm not worried about the colour, and the Marzen was really lightly bittered to the hop influence will be minimal.

Yeah let's do that. That sounds like a plan!

Sounds good to me. What's your grain bill?

 

[Toxxyc]

For the IRA or the Marzen?

EDIT: Let me post both:

Marzen (came out at 23l):
2kg Pale Malt
2kg Pilsner Malt
250gr CaraMunich I
250gr Goldswaen Brown

IRA (still debating this one a bit) for a 20l batch, might be a bit more, around 22l perhaps if my efficiency keeps it up:
1.75kg Pale Malt
1.75kg Pilsner Malt
200gr Munich Type 1
200gr Munich Type 2
110gr/120gr Roasted Barley

OK so for the IRA I am "debating" the grain bill as I'm not entirely sure what to go with in terms of the base malt. Yes, Pale would probably be more malty than the pilsner malt in there as well, but for some reason the 50/50 pale/pilsner mix for me works REALLY well in my beers. I've done the 50/50 thing in the Marzen and it is turning out absolutely incredible. Our pale malt (the one I use) isn't THE best quality and I tend to get an almost green grainy flavour of it when I use 100% of the base malt as that in beers that's not too bitter (like the IRA).

I'll be using Hellertau Nugget as the hop in this IRA. I read about East Kent Goldings and all those sort of hops but from what I've seen it seems Nugget will work as well (and I have it).

So that's my idea. I'm planning on mashing at around 69°C to see where it comes out. I THINK I might just double up that recipe and making two no-chill cubes at once, and then I'll just sell the other one (got a client who said he'd be interested).

 

[Miraculix]

For the IRA or the Marzen?

IRA!

 

[Miraculix]

For the IRA or the Marzen?

EDIT: Let me post both:

Marzen (came out at 23l):
2kg Pale Malt
2kg Pilsner Malt
250gr CaraMunich I
250gr Goldswaen Brown

IRA (still debating this one a bit) for a 20l batch, might be a bit more, around 22l perhaps if my efficiency keeps it up:
1.75kg Pale Malt
1.75kg Pilsner Malt
200gr Munich Type 1
200gr Munich Type 2
110gr/120gr Roasted Barley

OK so for the IRA I am "debating" the grain bill as I'm not entirely sure what to go with in terms of the base malt. Yes, Pale would probably be more malty than the pilsner malt in there as well, but for some reason the 50/50 pale/pilsner mix for me works REALLY well in my beers. I've done the 50/50 thing in the Marzen and it is turning out absolutely incredible. Our pale malt (the one I use) isn't THE best quality and I tend to get an almost green grainy flavour of it when I use 100% of the base malt as that in beers that's not too bitter (like the IRA).

I'll be using Hellertau Nugget as the hop in this IRA. I read about East Kent Goldings and all those sort of hops but from what I've seen it seems Nugget will work as well (and I have it).

So that's my idea. I'm planning on mashing at around 69°C to see where it comes out. I THINK I might just double up that recipe and making two no-chill cubes at once, and then I'll just sell the other one (got a client who said he'd be interested).

The IRA sounds reasonable to me. The Munich probably isn't very much the original thing, but will work well I guess. I like the absence of crystal and that you use roasted barley.

 

[Toxxyc]

So I'm not always brewing "to style", so to speak. I'll usually take a recipe "to style" and then tweak it to my own tastes. That's what I did with the Marzen as well. I try to match colour and IBU, and then usually adjust the grain bill "to fit" my flavour, obviously within reason.

The Marzen is a good example of that, that happened to turn out great. The Goldswaen brown was something I had on hand that I just decided on when I thought about a way to boost the sweet malty flavours in the Marzen, and it worked.

The IRA I want to do the same. I LOVE the red hue that the roasted barley can impart in a beer, so I'm going to give that a shot. The Munich, albeit probably not style-specific, it's probably not traditional and it's probably not "what everyone does", but I don't really care. I brew for myself, for the most part, and I've never brewed a bad beer following this logic (yet).

Then again, even following the official style guide, it seems to indicate a low to moderate malt aroma, either neutral grainy or slightly on the sweet caramel, toasty, toffee side. Same goes for the flavour as well, and that's why I went with the combination of roasted barley and Munich malts.

EDIT: I actually see that David Heath recommends the use of Munich to a higher degree. I see he mentions 1-1.5% Roasted Barley only, actually, so I might turn it down a bit on mine.

 

[Miraculix]

So I'm not always brewing "to style", so to speak. I'll usually take a recipe "to style" and then tweak it to my own tastes. That's what I did with the Marzen as well. I try to match colour and IBU, and then usually adjust the grain bill "to fit" my flavour, obviously within reason.

The Marzen is a good example of that, that happened to turn out great. The Goldswaen brown was something I had on hand that I just decided on when I thought about a way to boost the sweet malty flavours in the Marzen, and it worked.

The IRA I want to do the same. I LOVE the red hue that the roasted barley can impart in a beer, so I'm going to give that a shot. The Munich, albeit probably not style-specific, it's probably not traditional and it's probably not "what everyone does", but I don't really care. I brew for myself, for the most part, and I've never brewed a bad beer following this logic (yet).

Then again, even following the official style guide, it seems to indicate a low to moderate malt aroma, either neutral grainy or slightly on the sweet caramel, toasty, toffee side. Same goes for the flavour as well, and that's why I went with the combination of roasted barley and Munich malts.

EDIT: I actually see that David Heath recommends the use of Munich to a higher degree. I see he mentions 1-1.5% Roasted Barley only, actually, so I might turn it down a bit on mine.

My approach to brewing is identical.

As for your reasoning regarding the Munich, I thought the same. It fits the taste. Regarding the roasted barley, I think everything between 1,5 and 3 % is reasonable. I think my IRA had 2 or 2.5% and the colour was spot on.

I found out that I'm not such a big IRA fan. It's a nice beer, but also a bit boring. My English friends loved it though. "It's like the best of a bitter and a stout came together!".

To me it was just a bit boring tbh.

 

[Toxxyc]

Ah OK, cool. I've used Roasted Barley VERY sparingly in the past because I'm quite sensitive to the taste. For example, where some people dumps it into stouts by the ton (well, not really), I despise those numbers and usually substitute lots of it for something like chocolate malt. I just don't want the IRA to pick up a roasted flavour (that bitter, almost coffee flavour), but if you say you've gone 2.5% and it worked I'm happy. I'm working on going with around 2%.

 

[Toxxyc]

I found out that I'm not such a big IRA fan. It's a nice beer, but also a bit boring. My English friends loved it though. "It's like the best of a bitter and a stout came together!".

To me it was just a bit boring tbh.

Ah, a late edit I didn't see. I have to comment on this, sorry.

So, the IRA. I was never the kind to enjoy the darker ales, including stouts, but for some reason the IRA just "stuck" with me. I don't even remember where my first IRA was tasted, or which one it was. I do remember stumbling upon the style every now and again, and I've always taken the chance to taste it. I remember tasting one from an Irish brewpub a long, long time ago though, and that one stuck. It was a low-carbonated IRA, brewed to a higher IBU than the style typically allows and it has quite a sweet finish. Absolutely beautiful beer, although I have no idea how it'll fare in a BJCP competition: The Gilroy Traditional Ruby Ale » Gilroys Brewery

Since tasting that one I've told myself I'll make an IRA one day. I never had the guts, because I see it as a fairly fragile beer. The flavours are quite subtle and gentle, and I don't want to stuff it up. To boot, I Googled a recipe years ago that also included honey, and considering honey costs a fortune I never had the drive to do it.

Until a few weeks ago a client asked me if I could do an IRA in kit form for him. So I figured "why not?". Since I started this brewing thing I've gained a lot of experience and even managed to knock out a few very clean lagers and pilsners. An IRA shouldn't be more difficult at all. I did some research on recipes and built my own as above. Now I'm going to brew it, just to see what comes of it.

 

[Miraculix]

Ah, a late edit I didn't see. I have to comment on this, sorry.

So, the IRA. I was never the kind to enjoy the darker ales, including stouts, but for some reason the IRA just "stuck" with me. I don't even remember where my first IRA was tasted, or which one it was. I do remember stumbling upon the style every now and again, and I've always taken the chance to taste it. I remember tasting one from an Irish brewpub a long, long time ago though, and that one stuck. It was a low-carbonated IRA, brewed to a higher IBU than the style typically allows and it has quite a sweet finish. Absolutely beautiful beer, although I have no idea how it'll fare in a BJCP competition: The Gilroy Traditional Ruby Ale » Gilroys Brewery

Since tasting that one I've told myself I'll make an IRA one day. I never had the guts, because I see it as a fairly fragile beer. The flavours are quite subtle and gentle, and I don't want to stuff it up. To boot, I Googled a recipe years ago that also included honey, and considering honey costs a fortune I never had the drive to do it.

Until a few weeks ago a client asked me if I could do an IRA in kit form for him. So I figured "why not?". Since I started this brewing thing I've gained a lot of experience and even managed to knock out a few very clean lagers and pilsners. An IRA shouldn't be more difficult at all. I did some research on recipes and built my own as above. Now I'm going to brew it, just to see what comes of it.

To me, it's not difficult at all. Use roast barley or dehusked roast barley, go very low on crystal, sub 5% or leave it out completely, use some nice pale malt and a clean ale or lager yeast. Ferment accordingly, so that it stays clean. Medium carbonation and no or minimal late hop additions. No dry hop.

 

[Toxxyc]

Yeah I think that's about where my recipe is at as well. No crystal, opting for Munich instead. No late or dry hopping, literally a single 60-minute addition. I'll be dosing this one with Irish moss to get it clearer quicker, and carbonating it quite low for myself. Some beers I enjoy very low carbed, and this is one of them.