WHEN to D-rest!? Help

[Yooper]

the diacetyl rest also works for other off flavor? is my light lager with a flavor reminiscent of chlorine. do d rest can help?

No, for a chlorine flavor a diacetyl rest won't improve that. All a diacetyl rest is raising the temperature of the fermentation slightly. That's it. It encourages the yeast to keep working and after fermentables are gone they will actually go back and digest their own waste products (like diacetyl).

When you say reminiscent of chlorine, in what way do you mean? "Swimming pool", or like chlorospectic? Or something else?

 

[marcelo]

is very difficult to describe the aroma and flavor that I feel this beer, and it's the third time it happens to me. initially seems like something fermented sugar cane, but soon reveals itself to more chlorine or cleaning product. and whenever it happened, was with ligh beers, lager or ale type.
never notice that in dark beers

 

[marcelo]

pissed off, because it's a batch of 45 liters

 

[Yooper]

is very difficult to describe the aroma and flavor that I feel this beer, and it's the third time it happens to me. initially seems like something fermented sugar cane, but soon reveals itself to more chlorine or cleaning product. and whenever it happened, was with ligh beers, lager or ale type.
never notice that in dark beers

With that description, I wonder first about fermentation temperature, and the temperature of the wort when the yeast was pitched. A high fermentation temperature can cause those "fermented sugar cane" flavors and aromas (fusel alcohols). Also, any stressed yeast can produce that flavor. If the yeast was underpitched, or stressed from other reasons, it could impact the beer greatly and cause some off-flavors.

The next thing I wonder about is the brewing water. What kind of water did you use for brewing?

 

[marcelo]

right! I used the tap water filtered. inoculated yeast after two days, because I'm only doing no-chill brewing, and BIB. but what you said hit me in the face! because I increased all my recipe, minus yeast. I did as I always did to 19L bach. 1L of a starter for a package of dry yeast two days before. this was probably my mistake at this time as the temperature is still 12C. can i do something to eliminate this off flavor? or perhaps hide it by adding a few liters of wort made ​​of caramel malts, special B or chocolate, and other kind of yeast. because I just used pilsen malt and carapilsen for this recipe and got OG 1.044.
any help will be appreciated, because I do not want to throw away another 45 liters of beer

 

[marcelo]

and the wort was a little above 12C when I inoculated yeast

 

[Yooper]

right! I used the tap water filtered. inoculated yeast after two days, because I'm only doing no-chill brewing, and BIB. but what you said hit me in the face! because I increased all my recipe, minus yeast. I did as I always did to 19L bach. 1L of a starter for a package of dry yeast two days before. this was probably my mistake at this time as the temperature is still 12C. can i do something to eliminate this off flavor? or perhaps hide it by adding a few liters of wort made ​​of caramel malts, special B or chocolate, and other kind of yeast. because I just used pilsen malt and carapilsen for this recipe and got OG 1.044.
any help will be appreciated, because I do not want to throw away another 45 liters of beer

I don't think the off-flavor will go away, but it may improve with lagering.

 

[marcelo]

Yooper, about the idea of trying to cover up the off flavor with stronger flavor malt? could it work?

 

[jeepinjeepin]

Yooper, about the idea of trying to cover up the off flavor with stronger flavor malt? could it work?

Have you decided what the off flavor is? If it is indeed from chlorine I doubt you will cover it up. If it is a yeast byproduct it may clean up during aging/lagering. Another possible option if it is yeast derived is to add more wort and fresh, active yeast. That could help clean up what was left behind.

 

[marcelo]

I'm sure that is an off flavor from fermentation. To try to better describe what it is, just take another sample from the fermenter. since last night adjusted the thermostat to 18C D to try to make a rest, and now the smell has changed a bit, now it seems pineapple, chewing gum and hard alcohol, like vodka cheap. (and a bit of paint thinner behind all this) I'm beginning to think that the time will be enough. I'll wait the 3 days of the "D rest" to see what else can change around here.

 

[jeepinjeepin]

What yeast did you use? Those flavors sound like Belgian or high temperature profiles.

 

[Obliviousbrew]

fussel acohols will give that bubble gum and jet fuel feel. You fermented too high probably.

 

[marcelo]

I used s-23. bothers me is also the fact of having first used a hop bag, and he was made ​​of a very thin voile, this could have reduced the IBU and making the beer becomes acidic?

 

[Yooper]

I used s-23. bothers me is also the fact of having first used a hop bag, and he was made ​​of a very thin voile, this could have reduced the IBU and making the beer becomes acidic?

No, that can't happen. If you reduce the IBUs, the beer will taste sweeter, but there are not other flavor impacts.

It really sounds like stressed yeast combined with a too-high fermentation temperature.

It sounds like you've got esters (the fruity flavors), fusels (the hot alcohol flavor and smell) and possibly some phenols (the "clove" medicinal smell). I've never used S-23 so I don't have any experience with the temperature tolerance of it or the pitching rate.

One thing I'm considering, since you say you cooled the wort for two days and then added the yeast at the appropriate temperature, 12C, and then fermented at 12C- it could be from in infection while the wort sat and waited for the yeast.

 

[marcelo]

I keep sniffing the glass ... definitely paint solvent with pineapple

 

[Yooper]

I keep sniffing the glass ... definitely paint solvent with pineapple

Paint solvent + pineapple makes me think of phenols and esters. Both would come from stressed yeast, and/or infection. The phenols can also come from chlorine in the brewing water, but not the fruitiness. Oversparging can also cause some phenols, but this makes me think more of infection.

 

[marcelo]

could be an infection, but i do it at a good time and still boiling wort is transferred to sanitized fermenter. but of course there is always a chance of getting infected.
But after from all the explanations here and some post I read I think my problem came yeast stressed.
I'll wait a few more days, and maybe do an experiment and splitting by adding more yeast and wort to see if I can cover up the off flavor.
Thank you all for the help.

 

[Obliviousbrew]

Myself I´ll just bottle and forget about the bottles for a good 6 months some of the esters will mellow a tad. Don´t think that repitching will help.

 

[Denny]

I used s-23. bothers me is also the fact of having first used a hop bag, and he was made ​​of a very thin voile, this could have reduced the IBU and making the beer becomes acidic?

BINGO! That pretty much describes my experience with S-23. I made the worst beers I've ever made (out of 427 batches!) when I used S-23.

 

[marcelo]

ok, I decided to proceed as follows: splitting the beer into two keg. In one i put 30gr off Saaz, and the other added 1 liter of wort made ​​from cane sugar and honey (only for start fermentation) and an envelope of s-04.
I can guarantee that the two are better now because of the maturing ...
but the first one with 30gr Saaz, was very good, hops covered up the off flavor very well.
I did not notice much difference for the second keg, so I add 30gr Saaz him too.

Thank you all for the help. Next time, I will take care to make a bigger starter.

 

[marcelo]

ops, I did again!
This time it was an ale.
brew, as usual my house ale. When I opened the container with recovered yeast, it was contaminated. And it was only 1/2 s-04 packet of yeast in the refrigerator. Quickly made a starter with this yeast, but the recipe was 60 liters!
It took about 2 days to get fermentation signal. I passed to the secondary the most muddy beer of my life. after a secondary weekend, nothing has changed.
I had to add gelatin.
Gelatin fairly cleared beer, but when tried a PET 2 liter Bam! that taste of green beer, chlorine and cleaner was there!
Now I'm trying alternatives to try to change the flavor and aroma of it.
Added 50gr of nuget to dry hop. I removed a sample and left 48 hours exposed to UV light in a transparent plastic bottle.
Just try it, and I can say it has improved a lot! remember Heineken.
Over the next days I will continue posting the results!