What's your favorite honey for mead?

[specialkayme]

If you're ever in Asheville, stop in the Bee Charmer. They have a free honey tasting booth. They'll sit down and walk you through a tasting of literally dozens of different types of honey from around the world.

 

[Soulshine2]

"Look up the statistics on Vietnam imported honey. Once the Chinese anti-dumping laws were passed in the US, Vietnam's honey exportation grew something like 1,000x, way more than the country could ever produce. Where do you think that's actually coming from? Same holds true with Cambodia, Laos, Thailand, even some South American countries. The USDA caught some people, and they went to jail over it. But it's still rampant in the industry."
the show I referenced actually covered this . Yes, there was a case with a very specific invoice "966" I think it was. It had trace amounts of an antibiotic in it ,unfit for sale,unfit fr USDA standards for human consumption and was told to "get rid of it" as it was passed down the brokerage line . It was sold as told "cheap" and it got caught in a lab ,traced it back to the original seller in China. One of the selling brokers escaped jail over this by returning to Germany and he is basically a prisoner of the confines of his own country.
I'm sure if you look on YouTube the show might be found .

 

[NeverDie]

As a Certified Master Beekeeper, I can attest to this.



HFCS if you're lucky. Sugar water if you aren't. But the adulteration isn't the bigger issue to me. It's the latent minerals and chemicals that exist in the honey that comes from these regions. It was the wildcard.




Not tried. Did. And are still doing.

Look up the statistics on Vietnam imported honey. Once the Chinese anti-dumping laws were passed in the US, Vietnam's honey exportation grew something like 1,000x, way more than the country could ever produce. Where do you think that's actually coming from? Same holds true with Cambodia, Laos, Thailand, even some South American countries. The USDA caught some people, and they went to jail over it. But it's still rampant in the industry.



Basically. Go to a local, smaller farmer's market. Find the beekeeper and talk to them. Ask them where their hives are, and if they resell anyone else's honey. Some do, but not all. I don't, for example. I produce my own honey, and when I sell out I sell out. Most consumers don't understand, and ask for honey in February. I tell them I sold out last October, and it was harvested last June. They seem confused, as the super market has honey year round, why can't I just go back to my hives and get more? The disconnect between farmers and consumers is shocking.

If you can't find a beekeeper at the local farmer's market, contact the local beekeeper's association. Most counties, or regions of counties, have one. Talk to them about where their honey comes from. They can usually tell you the trees and the sources, and it all varies based on year and location. One year's honey will taste entirely different than another year's honey. Large producers blend honey to get consistent flavors. But to me the joy is getting that variety every year.



There is no such thing as killer bee honey. It all depends on the nectar source, not the bees that make it (provided they are all apis mellifera).

Well, maybe I was duped. I can post a photo of the jar if it helps. Says it is from killer bees in brazil.

 

[specialkayme]

Oh I have no doubt that's what the label said. It's just not a thing.

Honey bees are Apis mellifera. Most managed honey bees in the US and Europe are a few subspecies of that, with the predomenant versions being Apis mellifera linguistica (the "Italian" honey bee), Apis mellifera mellifera (the "German" honey bee), and Apis mellifera carnica (the Carni honey bee). In actuality, ever since the honey bee importation ban in the 1920's in the US, all honey bees are a mix of these, and a few other lesser subspecies (including caucasian and russian).

What's the difference between Apis mellifera mellifera honey and Apis mellifera carnica honey? Not a darn thing. Same chemical process, same end result. Analysis of the honey can't even tell what subspecies the honey comes from.

In the 1950's a scientist imported africanized honey bees to Brazil, Apis mellifera scutellata (although it is now believed the true subspecies was misidentified). The western honey bee does well in temperate regions, but not great in the tropics. The scientist was trying to get the tropic adapted africanized honey bee to mate with the western honey bee, to create a more prolific tropic forager. Unfortunately the africanized honey bees were more aggressive, but otherwise biologically the same as the western honey bee. Due to an error, the africanized honey bee escaped, and started spreading rapidly. It was well equipped to live in a tropic region, and quickly out bred the western honey bee. It spread up to Texas in the US, but slowed progression once it hit southern CA. Due to it's more aggressive nature as a result of hundreds of years of selection for more aggression in Africa, the media labeled it the "killer bee." Even though only one person died from africanized honey bees in the first 3 years it made it into the US. Their venom isn't more dangerous, or stronger, than the western honey bee. Instead they just sting under less provoked situations, and continue their aggression longer than western honey bees.

So what's the difference between Apis mellifera carnica honey and Apis mellifera scutellata honey? Not a darn thing. It was a marketing ploy.

The true question is what was the nectar source. Western honey bees and africanized honey bees collecting nectar in Brazil will taste the same.

 

[Blacksmith1]

Even if it is the same, some... intellectually challenged individuals are collecting "killer bee" honey from wild colonies. The wife and I watched a video of one of these persons doing so. Based on the bees reaction I'm betting they were africanized bees.
I keep telling my step son he should obtain some and then label his mead as Killer Bee Mead. Made with killer bee honey. One oz per gallon, and it's not a lie.

 

[NeverDie]

By the way, the buckwheat honey I tried.... it smelled--I kid you not--very strongly and very much like horse manure. Is that a typical buckwheat honey smell? Or did I simply get a weird bottle of it? If it's normal, I'm just amazed it has any following at all. Out of the different honey's that I've tried, it has possibly the strongest flavor, but it also tastes the least like honey, and it obviously smells the least like honey too. Very definitely a barnyard or horse stable smell, if you know what I mean.

 

[Maylar]

By the way, the buckwheat honey I tried.... it smelled--I kid you not--very strongly and very much like horse manure. Is that a typical buckwheat honey smell?

Yep.

 

[NeverDie]

As for what honey is "best", I'm preferable to Tulip Poplar and blackberry. But mainly because it's my local main honey flow, I'm familiar with it, and its flavor brings back good memories.

If I want something lighter and more basic, I go with an acacia or alfalfa. I avoid clover, as what you buy is often super blended and not really true clover.

If I want something with a little more flavor, I'll go with a fireweed or a "wildflower". I avoid orange blossom for the same reasons I avoid clover.

I avoid dark honey, like buckwheat, for meads. I also avoid the really good stuff, like Tupelo and Sourwood, for honey. It's really great stuff, but a little too special for mead in my opinion.

Since you're in that industry, maybe you can comment: is "True Source Certified" meaningful, and can it be trusted? For example, if I were to purchase, say, an Orange Blossom honey that was "True Source Certified," could I be confident I was getting the real thing, or not?

 

[NeverDie]

In December, I had some mead made with Meadowfoam honey - oh heavens, it was delicious. Tasted remarkably like marshmallows. https://ashevillebeecharmer.com/shop/honey/meadowfoam-honey/

Thanks for the tip! Never heard of it before, but now that I have I just now ordered some from amazon so I can give it a try: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007MD76Z0/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
A few of the reviewers commented that the company is in Colorado, which is far from where the meadowfoam would be in the northwest, so it may be dodgy. Still, the reviews on it were pretty good anyway.

 

[NeverDie]

I just today received this Florida Palmetto Honey:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07HP8LC49/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
because it is specifically called for by the 3 day Mead recipe that's posted on this forum. Anyhow, it's good honey, but--just trying to be as objective as I can-- I wouldn't say it tastes sufficiently different from "generic" honey that its worth the price premium I paid for it. i.e. I'm pretty confident I could substitute generic honey for it without jeopardizing the mead recipe.

 

[specialkayme]

is "True Source Certified" meaningful, and can it be trusted? For example, if I were to purchase, say, an Orange Blossom honey that was "True Source Certified," could I be confident I was getting the real thing, or not?

Let me start this off by saying this is my opinion only, and not the opinion of all beekeepers or the industry at large.

No, "True Source Certified" is not meaningful. TSC attempts to trace the origin of honey back to the original source. It's a decent attempt, but it falls short in my opinion. Grocery store honey often changes many hands before it hits your hands. Typically it starts with the beekeeper, then the processor, then the exporter, then the importer, then the packer, then the distributor, and finally the retailer. In some circles, one or more of those parties are the same. For example the beekeeper might also be the processor, and the importer may also be the packer. TSC requires all parties involved in the chain need to be certified in order for the end retailer to sell their product as TSC. Which is a nice concept. Except there are exceptions for the beekeeper and processor if they are produce below a threshold amount of honey. That threshold is 40,000 lbs of honey per year. To put that into comparison, my hives typically produce about 40 lbs per hive. So that's 1,000 hives. To me, that's a significant operation, as in some areas you can make a living off 500 colonies without any supplemental source of income.

Now, the theory is the little guy isn't likely to try and defraud the customer. They can't set up a network to bounce honey around to different locations and hide the original origin. Which is true. Except it creates a loop hole for the processor. If they accept 50,000 lbs of honey from one beekeeper, they need that beekeeper to be certified. Or they could take 25,000 lbs from two different beekeepers, both in China, while the processor is in Vietnam, and presto, you've circumvented the TSC requirements. And most beekeepers in china aren't corporations producing large quantities of honey.

Plus, TSC is not a certification of quality. Only source. It isn't a certification that the type of honey on the label is correct. Instead it's that they can trace the honey back to the hives. Or at least, on paper they can.

TSC charges a fee to all of the participants in the chain. The packer and the importer want the TSC label, and so they willingly pay for it. If they want it, they force the exporter to participate, who forces the processor, and hopefully the beekeeper. But if the beekeeper can't afford it?

Now lets look at the local beekeeper. Take me for example. I'm the beekeeper. I'm also the processor. There is no import or export, I distribute directly, and sell direct to the customer. I'm a one stop shop. When you buy honey from me, I'm the only person that has touched any container the honey was in. Does that make it of better quality? Not necessarily. But it does mean I can tell you where it came from. If you believe me, great. If you don't, would a "TSC" label make you believe me more? It shouldn't. If I'd lie to your face, I'd lie on a form to the TSC entity.

Plus, I sell out of my honey every year. Easily too. So why would I want to pay money for a TSC label, when it isn't an indication of the source?

That being said, the AHA supports the TSC label. So I'm sure it's benefiting larger beekeepers in the country. Not because they buy the label, but I suspect it prevents importers from getting away with much, and pushes some sales away from the small local guys that can't afford the TSC label. Centralizing sales to the larger US packers and importers.

 

[specialkayme]

I just today received this Florida Palmetto Honey:
. . . I wouldn't say it tastes sufficiently different from "generic" honey that its worth the price premium I paid for it.

A) I've never been super impressed with palmetto honey. I know others rave about it. To each their own.

B) I'm not sure that I would consider honey sold at $10/lb with free shipping as "price premium." I sell my local honey for $8/lb. And I'm well below market for local honey. I know many in the area that sell at $12/lb. Some at more than that. And that doesn't include shipping.

Many on here want their honey for cheap. They brag about getting it at $4 per pound or less. Sometimes as low as $2.50. Beekeeping isn't easy. It's a hard process. Not something I'd want to reward with a "to the lowest bidder" mentality.

Crap in, crap out. I don't skip on quality of food. If someone's trying to undercut you in price, there's a reason why.

Not that you asked for any of my thoughts on this.

 

[Maylar]

Thanks for being here.

 

[NeverDie]

A) I've never been super impressed with palmetto honey. I know others rave about it. To each their own.

B) I'm not sure that I would consider honey sold at $10/lb with free shipping as "price premium." I sell my local honey for $8/lb. And I'm well below market for local honey. I know many in the area that sell at $12/lb. Some at more than that. And that doesn't include shipping.

Many on here want their honey for cheap. They brag about getting it at $4 per pound or less. Sometimes as low as $2.50. Beekeeping isn't easy. It's a hard process. Not something I'd want to reward with a "to the lowest bidder" mentality.

Crap in, crap out. I don't skip on quality of food. If someone's trying to undercut you in price, there's a reason why.

Not that you asked for any of my thoughts on this.

I probably should have said "ordinary" rather than "generic".

One of our more "local" honey sources where I live is: https://roundrockhoney.com/

We used to buy honey directly from them by the gallon at the local farmer's market at $50 gallon, mostly because my wife thought it might help with allergies. Now I see it in the local grocery store too (or, maybe it was always there all along and I hadn't noticed it). However, local or not, it too tastes rather ordinary.

The Tupelo that I tried this morning, though, is truly extraordinary: head and shoulders better tasting than any honey I've ever had before. I mean, wow! Nectar of the gods. And that has me excited now to try to find other honey's that are outstanding like that too. It's pretty easy to scale a mead recipe up or down in terms of size. I now routinely do 5 cup recipes to try out different yeasts, and different recipes, and I see no reason why I couldn't scale that down even further, if need be, to fit a particular honey into a budget.

 

[specialkayme]

If you're in Texas you've got lots of options on local honey. Texas is a big beekeeping state. Some commercial, some sideliner, some hobby. Beeweaver and RWeaver, both about two hours east of you, are big operations that sell bees to alot of smaller operators. I would bet if you call them up they'd be able to tell you some local mid size honey producers.

Tupelo is good stuff. If you're looking for other stuff to try, take a look into Manuka (not good for mead, but interesting to try based on the fame it has), Leatherwood, Fireweed (local to you), and my personal favorite Sourwood. You can also try Linden, Acacia, and Black Locust, which are all nice, but not as great as the first 4.

 

[Soulshine2]

Well, maybe I was duped. I can post a photo of the jar if it helps. Says it is from killer bees in brazil.

its like labels that say "sugar free" . To the informed it reads " man made chemical $#itstorm" . Thanks but no thanks . I'll look for the real stuff .

 

[Blacksmith1]

I never knew there were so many honeys.

 

[growlrr]

While this is a hot topic, has anyone tried this raw honey - Ark America raw, unfiltered honey? It's an "Amazon choice" and has very good (albeit limited) reviews, including one from a mead maker. It's from the Ukraine. Additional web sleuthing didn't reveal anything that led me to believe there is anything shady about them and you can't beat the price. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B079ZWNMJW/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[NeverDie]

its like labels that say "sugar free" . To the informed it reads " man made chemical $#itstorm" . Thanks but no thanks . I'll look for the real stuff .

I never knew the whole story until our friend here explained it. I thought they were wild African bees that became invasive.

 

[NeverDie]

While this is a hot topic, has anyone tried this raw honey - Ark America raw, unfiltered honey? It's an "Amazon choice" and has very good (albeit limited) reviews, including one from a mead maker. It's from the Ukraine. Additional web sleuthing didn't reveal anything that led me to believe there is anything shady about them and you can't beat the price. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B079ZWNMJW/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

As I've learned today, the key question to ask if what kind of flowers the bees got their nectar from. It doesn't seem to indicate, except to say that 35% is from sunflower.

 

[NeverDie]

So, I went onto youtube looking for the china honey story, but instead I found a thorough demonstration on how easily fake honey can be made. The first method doesn't use any honey at all, and the other method uses a sugar filler to stretch real honey:



If it's for real, it comes as no surprise that at least some Chinese suppliers would try to sell counterfeit honey. After all, they have a track record of doing it in just about any industry they can get away with it.

 

[growlrr]

That's absolutely true. I was wondering if anyone here had tried it. I have absolutely no idea what other wildflowers you might find in the Ukraine. Well, only one way to find out I suppose. I just ordered a bucket and will report back!

 

[growlrr]

I watched that video in absolute horror right up until the end when I realized they were extolling the virtues of this herbal tea concoction that just happens to taste like honey and really were not trying to do anything shady...One mans poison I guess.....especially if you have allergy concerns, bit if you are selling it as real "honey", that's a problem...

 

[growlrr]

If it's for real, it comes as no surprise that at least some Chinese suppliers would try to sell counterfeit honey. After all, they have a track record of doing it in just about any industry they can get away with it.

NeverDie - so are you implying that my Shanghai Rolex may NOT be authentic? I'm rather upset now....

 

[AzOr]

I got duped once by a “bee keeper” on Craig’s List (I know I know). He had a good good story about how his whole family has been in the biz for generations...blah blah..
I have no doubt his story was true, however the honey I bought from him seemed really good. Until I fermented it. It had a weird chemical taste. I dumped it down the drain.

 

[NeverDie]

I watched that video in absolute horror right up until the end when I realized they were extolling the virtues of this herbal tea concoction that just happens to taste like honey and really were not trying to do anything shady...One mans poison I guess.....especially if you have allergy concerns, bit if you are selling it as real "honey", that's a problem...

On the bright side, if this Lebanese tea is for real, maybe it could be used to create a stronger honey taste in a mead that is nonetheless also using real honey. I mean, the 3 day meade recipe (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/honeybush-vanilla-b3dm-bray’s-3-day-mead.654799/) is based on a Honeybush tea, but the honeybush tea I ordered from amazon turned out not to taste at all like honey, even though some of the amazon reviews say it does. However, if Lebanese tea actually *does* taste like honey, and it were used in place of Honeybush tea, the result might be an even better mead than the 3 day mead.

 

[specialkayme]

FYI - Texas has a local honey finder (https://realtexashoney.com/real-texas-honey/rth-honey-locator/). I forgot about it until my drive home today.

Other states have a similar program. North Carolina is one of those states. In case others are wondering.

 

[NeverDie]

I did the drip test on the walmart brand honey, and it doesn't look as though it drips entirely like it should, at least compared to the "real" honey in this youtube video. However, neither is it as extreme as the fake honey in the video either. it seems somewhere in between.

 

[specialkayme]

The "drip test" isn't really that accurate. It's attempting to tell water content, among other things. Grade A honey has a moisture content below 18.6%. Any less than that doesn't create a more superior product. Any more than that and the honey could ferment, if it isn't pasteurized. My honey is sometimes 16% moisture (it just happens naturally in my area). If I did the drip test with 16% honey and 18% honey, I'd think the 18% was "fake" even though it isn't. If I compared 18% honey with 21% honey that was pasteurized, I'd think the 21% honey is fake, even though it isn't really (although it isn't Grade A and probably shouldn't be sold as honey, but still).

Of course, you could also take "fake" honey and get the moisture content low. It won't drip the same as pure honey, but depending on how think you get it, you may not be able to tell the difference.

I just mention it as a word of caution. All of those tests may indicate that it isn't pure. But it isn't definitive. Be careful about telling a beekeeper his honey isn't pure based on a youtube test.

I once had someone who bought candles from me. It's just pure beeswax that I harvest and wicks I buy online. That's it. She burned the candles and some soot appeared on the rim of the candle container. She chewed me out saying that the candles weren't "pure" beeswax because it left a residue of soot, and how dare I try and sell her such a deceptive product. I just shook my head. She had no idea what she was talking about, as the soot that appeared was a result of a candle wick that was larger than needed, to create a more distinctive flame which overheats the beeswax and cotton wick a little more that creates a little bit of soot. It's still pure beeswax and a clean burning process. But there was no point telling that lady about it. She didn't want to hear it. She was looking for faults, and she thought she found it and blamed me. Shocking when you think about it, that the average person would think they know more from youtube and reading blogs about a subject than the beekeeper who makes the product and physically puts all the products together, but whatever.

 

[Maylar]

One thing I've wondered about is why I never see apple blossom honey. I live in an apple growing area and during the spring when the trees are blossoming I've seen bee hives scattered around the orchards. I know that beekeepers partner with the orchards to let the bees pollinate the trees, so I would expect that the honey from that would be unique. Yet I've never seen it for sale, even in the local farm markets. I wonder why?