What's the real purpose of bottle-conditioning in a fridge?

[unionrdr]

In my experience,that doesn't really work. for example,two bottles of the same beer,one in the fridge,one in the freezer. Give the fridged beer say 5 days,then put one in the freezer till it gets to about the same temp. The freezer one will be flatter. Did that one a couple times myself. Getting carbonation into solution is a slow process,& not just temp driven. Everything about brewing takes time to one degree or another.

 

[cheezydemon3]

But once you open the bottles, the vital difference between the two is the temp of the liquid at atmospheric pressures, not when it was capped. They gushed because (like you said) they were warm, not because they hadn't absorbed CO2 while they were in the bottle.

Maybe this will help. Take two warm beers, same process and assume they are identical. Chill one in the fridge for a week while the other sits warm. Then, chill the other one in one of those water bath chillers, so it gets to the same temp as the other beer in say 30 sec or whatever.

What I'm claiming is twofold from this setup:
-Both beers will have the same level of carbonation, and
-They will behave the same when you open them.

By your logic, if 2 beers were properly chilled and one then allowed to warm up, the warm one would gush?

 

[GuldTuborg]

Check the last post in this thread for someone else's take on the matter from the Brew Science section. Here's the highlight. I'll track down someone who knows the science behind this better.

The point is, yes, liquids require more pressure to absorb gasses at higher temperatures, but when the system as a whole moves to a higher temp, the gas portion of that system provides higher pressure as well. Thus, the difference in the ration of CO2 between the liquid and gas portion of the system is minimal.

Anyway, here's the quote that matters, but read the last post.

Once the bottle conditioning has been done, and the CO2 has been created and absorbed into the beer, the carbonation in the beer really won't change significantly no matter what the storage temperature is. What will change significantly is the pressure in the headspace. If you think about the correct assumption you made in your first question it makes sense. If carbonation is simply the ratio of CO2 to beer, and the bottle is sealed, that ratio is going to stay the same regardless of temperature. Technically at warmer temps some of the CO2 will move from the beer to the headspace, decreasing the carbonation in the beer some, but the difference is minimal. The carbonation of the "bottle" will still stay the same.

 

[GuldTuborg]

By your logic, if 2 beers were properly chilled and one then allowed to warm up, the warm one would gush?

I would claim that it would have roughly the same chance of gushing as one that had never been chilled in the first place. Assuming the two warm beers were at the same temp...yes.

 

[Black Island Brewer]

NOTE: THIS POST IS NOT ABOUT BOTTLE-CARBING (WHICH IS THE 2-3 WEEK PERIOD WHERE CO2 APPEARS IN THE BOTTLES DUE TO THE PRIMING SUGAR. THIS IS ABOUT BOTTLE-CONDITIONING WHICH IS THE PHASE AFTER BOTTLE-CARBING)

Is the real goal of bottleconditioning to stop yeast activity? I mean we bottle with the primary sugar....then wait till the beer gets carbonated, and after that it is a must to put the beer in the fridge, isnt it?

If we dont do so....the yeast stays active and wont go dormant. Meaning that it continues altering the taste of the beer due to the fact that it is active. Even autolysis can happen too, right? Causing off-flavours.

Any thoughts?

My reason for cold storage is to slow the staling process. Beer goes bad over time, and storage temperature makes a huge impact. Charlie Bamforth suggests that for every 10C you go up, it cuts the life in half.

 

[ColoHox]

That's exactly the claim that I'm calling into question. Restating it won't help. I believe this statement is false, but I will look into it more and get back with actual numbers and better reasoning than "I think this is right."

I've gotten that before as well. Includinthe latest batch of Wernesgruner pils I bought. It was a little cool from store temp (Aldi's),but foamed over till it got a few hours fridge time. Then it was fine. Some of mine in question took a couple days to a week to slow down or prevent foam-overs. So fridge time def has it's positive effects. It's simple chemistry.

Indeed, this is Le Chatelier's principle, related to the solubility of gases based on temperature. The solubility of gases increases as temperature decreases, this is well established, although it does not involve time. It does, however, take time to chill the entire volume of beer to the same temperature.

But once you open the bottles, the vital difference between the two is the temp of the liquid at atmospheric pressures, not when it was capped. They gushed because (like you said) they were warm, not because they hadn't absorbed CO2 while they were in the bottle.

They gushed because they were warm, which resulted in less solubility of the CO2, not just because they were warm. All factors have to be accounted for.

Maybe this will help. Take two warm beers, same process and assume they are identical. Chill one in the fridge for a week while the other sits warm. Then, chill the other one in one of those water bath chillers, so it gets to the same temp as the other beer in say 30 sec or whatever.

What I'm claiming is twofold from this setup:
-Both beers will have the same level of carbonation, and
-They will behave the same when you open them.

Exactly. It is not a function of time, it is a function of temperature. If everyone could flash chill their beer, it would be less of a concern. But, it takes some time to chill beer down so it can abosorb the CO2.

 

[GuldTuborg]

They gushed because they were warm, which resulted in less solubility of the CO2, not just because they were warm. All factors have to be accounted for.

This is what I was trying to say. Sorry if it got muddled.

Anyway, thanks as well for the general support as well. Do you have a background in this kind of material?

 

[unionrdr]

But in brewing,not the lab,time is relavent. Putting a beer in the freezer for an hour or a bit less will not give the same carbonation in a bottle of beer as it would during a week in the fridge. That's what I was talking about before regarding time vs sheer temp.

 

[cheezydemon3]

I appreciate the discussion on carbonation and temp, but in this thread, it is actually, specifically OT.

 

[chawagi]

Ha! This is really funny to me because unionrdr said this in almost EVERY post he has made in this thread! I went back and counted and he literally said this same thing 4 different times. I just got a kick out of that so I thought I would point it out.

You're right. Sorry, guys. I was skimming through on one computer while doing some work on another computer and somehow missed every single one of Uniondr's posts. I really don't understand how I did that because there are a few members whose posts I usually pay particular attention to, and he is one of them.

I'm out.

 

[cheezydemon3]

Cold conditioning in a lager will have a different effect from an ale.

I feel that any beer can improve from warm storage, and if you have beers going "stale" then you don't drink enough, and should possibly give up brewing.......

 

[ColoHox]

What chemically is happening to the beer once refrigerated? Does the temp make the yeast go dormant? Are other things affecting the taste?
Curious
Thanks

There is actually a ton of stuff happening during conditioning, chemically speaking, although less during refrigeration.

Here is a review paper regarding the chemistry of beer aging. It is very chemistry heavy (obviously), but well written, so a bit easier for the semi-experienced laypeople, and very thorough.

Also, just in case there is any interest, my lab did a reaserch project with New Belgium to look at flavor markers during different storage temperatures. Room temperature storage results in significantly more staling-associated compounds, which makes sense. The caveat is that the staling-associated compounds are not necessarilly considered off-flavors in selected styles.

View attachment Chemistry of beer aging.pdf

View attachment Metabolomic profile of beer during storage.pdf

 

[unionrdr]

Thanks. I just give solid,real world info on what I presonally observe in various parts of my process. Science is good,but what happens in a lab setting isn't always,strictly how it works in the brewery. That's all I'm saying. Science is good,but only to a point.

 

[GuldTuborg]

But in brewing,not the lab,time is relavent.

Why are matters of brewing not subject to the laws of chemistry? Please, explain that one.

Putting a beer in the freezer for an hour or a bit less will not give the same carbonation in a bottle of beer as it would during a week in the fridge.

Yes, it will, for the reasons given above. It's simple chemistry.

Thanks. I just give solid,real world info on what I presonally observe in various parts of my process. Science is good,but what happens in a lab setting isn't always,strictly how it works in the brewery. That's all I'm saying. Science is good,but only to a point.

I hear you and this is a good point. The question is, "what if there are relevant differences between these published experiments and results, and my setup?" That's a valid question. For simple matters, though, I think the burden of proof is on the questioner to show some relevant difference, or at least the possibility of one. We haven't seen anything like that yet here.


Anyway, Cheezey is right. This is crazy off topic. We can create our own thread for this in the Brew Science section if we like, and stop crapping on the OP's thread.

 

[peterj]

Personally I've never seen a difference in carbonation between a beer that I quick chilled in the freezer for an hour and a beer from the same batch that has been in the fridge for a month. Leaving it in the fridge for a while definitely helps with clarity, but I've never experienced it having any effect on carbonation.

The point is, yes, liquids require more pressure to absorb gasses at higher temperatures, but when the system as a whole moves to a higher temp, the gas portion of that system provides higher pressure as well. Thus, the difference in the ration of CO2 between the liquid and gas portion of the system is minimal.

This makes a lot of sense to me. As the temperature decreases the pressure decreases because the liquid and the gas contract causing the change in equilibrium of CO2 between the liquid and headspace to be minimal.

 

[ColoHox]

Thanks. I just give solid,real world info on what I presonally observe in various parts of my process. Science is good,but what happens in a lab setting isn't always,strictly how it works in the brewery. That's all I'm saying. Science is good,but only to a point.

Science is for the details, but it is solid info. And the exact reason why we collaborated with a brewery, to link the two! The science I linked supports nearly all of your real world experience, which is great!

Science is good,but only to a point.

Is that the point where God starts? I have been searching for that point for my entire career, and it keeps getting further away.

 

[GuldTuborg]

There is actually a ton of stuff happening during conditioning, chemically speaking, although less during refrigeration.

I'll go through the readings later, as I have time, but wanted to say a "thanks" for them. A quick glance shows some solid reading here.

 

[unionrdr]

Why are matters of brewing not subject to the laws of chemistry? Please, explain that one.

Well,like I said,my experiences in this regard aren't always supported 100% by science. A brewery,home or otherwise,isn't a clean room with strict purification of cultures,etc.

Yes, it will, for the reasons given above. It's simple chemistry.
no,it won't. Not in any experiments I did. Carbonation isn't a quick process in our little worlds.

Anyway, Cheezey is right. This is crazy off topic. We can create our own thread for this in the Brew Science section if we like, and stop crapping on the OP's thread.

,sorry. I figured it was kinda related myself...

Science is for the details, but it is solid info. And the exact reason why we collaborated with a brewery, to link the two! The science I linked supports nearly all of your real world experience, which is great!

Well,that's cool. Glad somebody got it in context. I've been relating how it works from my own observations/experiments along the way. Ain't brewin' fun?

Is that the point where God starts? I have been searching for that point for my entire career, and it keeps getting further away.

 

[cheezydemon3]

I am giving serious thought to bottling a sixer of each batch and leave it warm to compare to the keg.

 

[peterj]

I appreciate the discussion on carbonation and temp, but in this thread, it is actually, specifically OT.

I don't know, I think it's fairly relevant. Some people are saying that one "purpose of bottle-conditioning in a fridge" is to achieve proper carbonation and some are saying that is not the case.

Is that the point where God starts? I have been searching for that point for my entire career, and it keeps getting further away.

This however is VERY off topic: I don't think God and science are mutually exclusive at all. I've found in my career and my life that as I keep learning more about science (be it immunological biochemical pathways, evolution, or even beer fermentation) I have a greater and greater appreciation for the intracacies of God's creation. Check out The Language of God by Francis Collins. That's a pretty good read.

Anyway, back on topic now!

 

[ColoHox]

I don't know, I think it's fairly relevant. Some people are saying that one "purpose of bottle-conditioning in a fridge" is to achieve proper carbonation and some are saying that is not the case.

This however is VERY off topic: I don't think God and science are mutually exclusive at all. I've found in my career and my life that as I keep learning more about science (be it immunological biochemical pathways, evolution, or even beer fermentation) I have a greater and greater appreciation for the intracacies of God's creation. Check out The Language of God by Francis Collins. That's a pretty good read.

Anyway, back on topic now!

Yes a topic more appropriate for the debate forums, sorry OP. Thanks for the book rec.

 

[GuldTuborg]

For anyone still interested in the carbonation level/ratio discussion, please give your input here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/carbonation-differences-bottles-varying-temps-441011/

 

[ballsy]

To respond to the OP, you CAN put all beers in fridge once at your preferred carbonation level, BUT they will not condition much after that. I.E.-if you put a BIG beer (which requires 5-6 months of maturing at room temp) into the fridge after 2-3 wks b/c it has carbonated, it will not have matured as much after 4-6 mths as the room temp beers would have. (I don't have room in my fridge for that much beer to be sitting idle anyways). Just leave boxed in the house and when you want some beer, pop some in the freezer or fridge and drink em! It's certainly not going to hurt!

 

[tennesseean_87]

But in brewing,not the lab,time is relavent. Putting a beer in the freezer for an hour or a bit less will not give the same carbonation in a bottle of beer as it would during a week in the fridge. That's what I was talking about before regarding time vs sheer temp.

So are there two different sets of scientific laws, one that applies to breweries and one to laboratories?

If there's a difference in time, why is that? What is going on in the fridge that makes the carbonation better, if this is the case?

I think JZ mentioned in an old podcast that during the lager phase, certain particles drop out that act as nucleation sites which decrease carbonation stability. This might also work in the bottle as these would be left in the bottom cake. (Chill haze dropping out has been mentioned).

I don't know enough of the science, but could time be a potential factor? Solubility change with temp, but the CO2 distribution doesn't instantly reach equilibrium. How long does it take to reach equilibrium, if there is a noticeable difference in how much CO2 will dissolve at different temps (maybe it is a small difference that really is negligible).

 

[unionrdr]

So are there two different sets of scientific laws, one that applies to breweries and one to laboratories?

If there's a difference in time, why is that? What is going on in the fridge that makes the carbonation better, if this is the case?

I think JZ mentioned in an old podcast that during the lager phase, certain particles drop out that act as nucleation sites which decrease carbonation stability. This might also work in the bottle as these would be left in the bottom cake. (Chill haze dropping out has been mentioned).

I don't know enough of the science, but could time be a potential factor? Solubility change with temp, but the CO2 distribution doesn't instantly reach equilibrium. How long does it take to reach equilibrium, if there is a noticeable difference in how much CO2 will dissolve at different temps (maybe it is a small difference that really is negligible).

As I mentioned earlier,A clean room lab where everything is controlled to the Nth degree isn't like our little breweries at home. So the same laws have other things that come into play that act as variables to what you'd see in a lab.
And lagers,being treated differently than ales,have other factors that come into play in the entire production process. Lagering,Diacityl rests,etc...besides the lagering phase itself.
Ales are less finicky,since they follow a simpler production process. Hence we have home brewing.
I'd say from experience thus far that it takes,on average a week to get good carbonation in the beer in the bottle. Two weeks seems to stregnthen it to where the head is thicker & the carbonation lasts longer at two weeks fridge time. I'm no scientist,but I know what works,& I did get "A's" in the living sciences once upon a time. I even helped the teacher during labs. I guess some parts of that process stick with you?...

 

[GuldTuborg]

Guys, if you want to debate the carb issue further, use the thread I linked to above.

 

[unionrdr]

Yeah,I think I've said about all I can on that subject.
Anyway,you won't have any yeast autolysis to worry about on our level of brewing. Conditioning after you know it's carbed to your satisfaction is best continued at room temp. However long that takes with a given style of beer you brewed. Then fridge time to sort of "lock it down".

 

[beefysal]

Lock it down. That one I understand. Thanks for the knowledge. I really appreciate this community