What's the point of a mash out?

[cmac62]

When I'm brewing 5-10 gallons, I do my mash at whatever temp, sparge if I'm going to, and when there is a couple of gallons in the BK I light the fire and start heating to a boil. My understanding of a mash out is to denature the enzymes therefore not allowing them to continue chewing on the complex sugars while the lauter/sparge is underway. It hardly ever takes more than 20 minutes to complete that part of the process. Is a mash out really necessary? Thanks in advance.

 

[day_trippr]

The mash-out paradigm exists in support of continuous/"fly sparging" at the classic "one quart per minute" rate. When batches get into 13-14 gallon pre-boil size, you're looking at the last runnings happening almost an hour from the start of the sparge, which without mitigation would surely have shifted towards fermentability. The mash-out basically staples the fermentability down...

Cheers!

 

[odie]

well mine mash all day while I'm at work. So I get a mash out is meaningless for me after 8-10 hours?

 

[jrgtr42]

well mine mash all day while I'm at work. So I get a mash out is meaningless for me after 8-10 hours?

Does your temps stay steady for all that time, or do you let it naturally cool?
|In either case, I'd think that by that time there's nothing to be gained by mashing out.

 

[IslandLizard]

I batch sparge (2x) using a converted cooler as mash tun. 5.5 gallon batches mostly, occasionally 11 gallon ones.

Like you, I start heating the wort as it lauters. As soon as I collected around 1.5-2 gallons, I pour it into the boil kettle and start heating. Then adding to it as I lauter more. That's effectively a mashout, IMO. It's almost impossible to heat the mash in a plastic cooler to mashout temps, without sacrificing lauter efficiency.

The 1st sparge is done with water hot enough to raise the grain bed to around 168-170F. The 2nd sparge with the leftover water at whatever temp it is.

Where step mashes are useful or wanted, I mash in the boil kettle with direct heat (induction) and good stirring, do the mashout, then transfer to the cooler for lautering and sparging.

 

[odie]

Does your temps stay steady for all that time, or do you let it naturally cool?
|In either case, I'd think that by that time there's nothing to be gained by mashing out.

have a temp controller and recirc pump going all day. I get home and it's boil time. saves me a couple hours or more.

 

[NitrogenWidget]

well mine mash all day while I'm at work. So I get a mash out is meaningless for me after 8-10 hours?

ha!
I work from home so I mill and mash in on my lunch then just let it sit until quitting time then boil.
but i just let it sit there.
no recirculation.

makes for an easy brew day when broken up like that.

 

[cmac62]

The mash-out paradigm exists in support of continuous/"fly sparging" at the classic "one quart per minute" rate. When batches get into 13-14 gallon pre-boil size, you're looking at the last runnings happening almost an hour from the start of the sparge, which without mitigation would surely have shifted towards fermentability. The mash-out basically staples the fermentability down...

Cheers!

Day tripper, this brings up a second question: what's the point of a "one quart per minute" fly sparge. I recirculate throughout the mash so no reason for a vorlauf, right into the sparge. If all you want to do is rinse the sugar from the grain, why not do that at twice that?

 

[Snuffy]

have a temp controller and recirc pump going all day. I get home and it's boil time. saves me a couple hours or more.

Do your beers tend to be darker than expected or anything? Just wondering if there were any side effects of mashing for so long.

 

[cmac62]

Do your beers tend to be darker than expected or anything? Just wondering if there were any side effects of mashing for so long.

I've never done an all day mash, but the wort can't caramelize or myarde (spelling) at that temp, so I would guess there should not be any darkening of the mash/wort.

 

[day_trippr]

Day tripper, this brings up a second question: what's the point of a "one quart per minute" fly sparge. I recirculate throughout the mash so no reason for a vorlauf, right into the sparge. If all you want to do is rinse the sugar from the grain, why not do that at twice that?

One really must understand the mechanical difference between "batch sparging" and "fly sparging". The former simply homogenizes remaining sugars in the grain post-first-run-off, and can be immediately drained without negative repercussions to yield. Further, if there is sufficient kettle volume, the sparge can be repeated.

"Fly sparge" is a one-and-done, continuous sparge, where one gently adds sparge liquor to the top of the mash while draining wort from the bottom. The speed is kept very low to avoid compacting the grain bed which promotes channeling - indeed, one hopes to have a marked change in SG along the way indicating there wasn't serious mixing or channeling. and as well, end up with very low remaining sugars once pre-boil volume is reached. There is no "do over", it has to be done right the first time.

Cheers!

 

[odie]

Do your beers tend to be darker than expected or anything? Just wondering if there were any side effects of mashing for so long.

none that I have noted. I'm assuming 100% conversion. So it's really just a matter of lauter or sparge efficiency.

I do plan to split my grain bill next time. Only base malts in the mash and then add in the crystal and roasted malts to steep when I get home before I mash out. I hadn't thought about tannins and such but have not really noted any harsh flavors from mashing crystal and dark malts for 10 hours. But it could simply I just didn't recognize the tannins...IDK...

 

[Miraculix]

In my experience, a mashout step enhances foam stability due to the formation of glycoproteins at the elevated temperature level.

 

[Snuffy]

I've never done an all day mash, but the wort can't caramelize or myarde (spelling) at that temp, so I would guess there should not be any darkening of the mash/wort.

Sounds tempting but I don't think I'd have the yarbles to let the pump run unattended all day.

 

[cmac62]

Sounds tempting but I don't think I'd have the yarbles to let the pump run unattended all day.

No kidding, especially with the element engaged. LOL

 

[cmac62]

"Fly sparge" is a one-and-done, continuous sparge, where one gently adds sparge liquor to the top of the mash while draining wort from the bottom. The speed is kept very low to avoid compacting the grain bed which promotes channeling

I figured the compacting and channeling would be the first response. I get it for sure, but batch sparging is so much easier and can be as effective. Okay, I guess running a pump/gravity feed into the mash tun is not too taxing. I personally like the simplicity and efficacy of batch sparging. When I started I had a cooler MT, drain it, but some hot water in (even hot is not required), run it off and start the boil.

 

[day_trippr]

Yes, batch sparging "can be as effective" - but it'll take at least a double batch sparge to get close to a middle-of-the-road fly sparge execution, and three times for a perfect fly sparge (I've had a few). I believe @doug293z has done that math.

It seems some folks think the choice of sparge method approaches choosing a religion - and they want to save us fly-spargers

Cheers!

 

[beersk]

I "mashout" while heating up a boil. Pretty simple really

 

[day_trippr]

It's all about time. Batch spargers can blissfully avoid mashout...

Cheers!

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

I heat my sparge water I add after collecting the first runnings hot enough to heat the grain mixture to about 75-80c and let it sit 5 minutes before collecting, I guess that counts as a mashout.
Is it really necessary? Dunno but it costs so little extra time and gives a little extra insurance against further conversion during the time it takes to collect all my wort in the bk.

 

[madscientist451]

Is a mash out really necessary? Thanks in advance.

No, it comes from homebrewers wanting to emulate what commercial brewers do. If you have a mash tun for a 7-10bbl brewery, it takes a while to drain off your first runnings and fly sparge all that grain. I ran some experiments a few years back and didn't notice any improvement in the beer with a mash out, so I quit doing it. However, your results may be different than mine, so try it both ways yourself and see if you notice a difference.
Here's Brulosophy's experiment with and without a mashout:
https://brulosophy.com/2019/08/12/the-mashout-effect-exbeeriment-results/

 

[AngusMacDuff]

Particularly with a thick mash, the higher temperature of the mash out will reduce the wort viscosity and should allow for better drainage of the first runnings. I think this should result in more effective batch sparging but would it be noticeable?

 

[JoeSpartaNJ]

While it may not be necessary, I have gained 10% efficiency with my electric BIAB (Anvil) setup by doing the following:

1. change my crush to .030
2. 170 degree mashout for 10 minutes.
3. Sparge with 1 gallon of water (170 degrees or so)

Costs me nothing other than maybe an extra 20 minutes or so.

I'll keep doing it.

 

[Everhard]

Okay, so to clarify for my simple brain here:
(I've an electric 3 kettle set-up)
Currently I mash, then increase temp to 168 once mash is done, rest at that temp for a period, then start adding sparge water and slowly draw off wort to boil kettle. (As mentioned above that can take up to an hour to fill the kettle when drawing off 13.5 gallons)
So now instead:
Mash as usual then once that's complete increase temp to 168 don't bother resting, add sparge and draw off wort but don't worry about going so slow just pull it off quick enough as long as it's not channeling\compacting the grain bed? (I guess I could run the pumps as quick as I do while circulating)
That would cut my brew day down quite a bit.

E.

 

[cmac62]

Okay, so to clarify for my simple brain here:
(I've an electric 3 kettle set-up)
Currently I mash, then increase temp to 168 once mash is done, rest at that temp for a period, then start adding sparge water and slowly draw off wort to boil kettle. (As mentioned above that can take up to an hour to fill the kettle when drawing off 13.5 gallons)
So now instead:
Mash as usual then once that's complete increase temp to 168 don't bother resting, add sparge and draw off wort but don't worry about going so slow just pull it off quick enough as long as it's not channeling\compacting the grain bed? (I guess I could run the pumps as quick as I do while circulating)
That would cut my brew day down quite a bit.

E.

E. you are doing a fly sparge and adding the water at the same rate it is draining into the BK? The batch sparge is you drain your 1st runnings into the BK, then add the sparge water stir and drain. With the batch sparge you can drain quickly, but the fly sparge does take time as you don't want to go fast as this would increase the chances of channeling and reduce the effectiveness.

I realized you probably already know this stuff, but I thought may as well post it. Don't hurt no one.

 

[Everhard]

Lol you know it! Don't hurt a soul. Ya I fly sparge. I'm just wondering if I can afford to not? (Not that I mind, it's fun, and it doesn't take effort, just thinking if I can cut down my brew day a bit.)
I should experiment I suppose.

E.

 

[day_trippr]

Yes, you can surely cut down your brew day a bit - and you can do it in at least a couple of ways.

First, switch to batch sparging. If you're doing 10 gallon batches that's going to save a half hour at least.
Then, decide how aggressive you want to be wrt extract efficiency: if your current fly sparging was classically efficient, you're going to need to do at least a two step batch sparge, and maybe even three step; versus adding an extra pound or two of base malt to skip a multi-step batch sparge and "save" even more time.

In the end it really is all about time...

Cheers!

 

[jcav]

I fly sparge and always mash out. It also helps when you are trying to make the same beer and have the same consistency from batch to batch of the same recipe. When you mash out the recipe is locked in and when you don't you can make a different strength beer each time you make the recipe. So doing a mash out does help if you are trying to duplicate that stellar beer you made last year and want to repeat it as close as possible.

John

 

[cmac62]

I fly sparge and always mash out. It also helps when you are trying to make the same beer and have the same consistency from batch to batch of the same recipe. When you mash out the recipe is locked in and when you don't you can make a different strength beer each time you make the recipe. So doing a mash out does help if you are trying to duplicate that stellar beer you made last year and want to repeat it as close as possible.

John

I also understand the consistency argument. The whole idea of MO is to kill off the enzymes which happens at 170 or above. Do you then do a rest at MO temps or just start sparging with 170 H20? Also, when do you start heating to a boil? With a 1 qt per minute sparge rate you have two gallons in the BK in 8 minutes. Or, do you wait until your whole batch is in the kettle before putting the spurs to it? I guess that is one of the main reasons I prefer batch sparging, (or full volume no sparge with my newish Anvil) you empty the MT into the BK (pull the grain pipe) and light the fire, boil and MO/sparge happen at the same time.

 

[day_trippr]

fwiw, as soon as my mash measures 168°F I start the fly-sparge, by setting the run-off pump rate and allowing the autosparge valve to control the sparge pump rate (it's a wonderful thing). By the time that temperature is reached the last of the enzymes are history. And as soon as I get a couple of gallons in the kettle I fire up its burner at a modest level to begin - there's likely another 50-something minutes to go before the pre-boil is reached and along the way I'm continually ramping the boil burner...

Cheers!