What's the point of a mash out?

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cmac62

cmac62

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When I'm brewing 5-10 gallons, I do my mash at whatever temp, sparge if I'm going to, and when there is a couple of gallons in the BK I light the fire and start heating to a boil. My understanding of a mash out is to denature the enzymes therefore not allowing them to continue chewing on the complex sugars while the lauter/sparge is underway. It hardly ever takes more than 20 minutes to complete that part of the process. Is a mash out really necessary? Thanks in advance. :mug:
 
The mash-out paradigm exists in support of continuous/"fly sparging" at the classic "one quart per minute" rate. When batches get into 13-14 gallon pre-boil size, you're looking at the last runnings happening almost an hour from the start of the sparge, which without mitigation would surely have shifted towards fermentability. The mash-out basically staples the fermentability down...

Cheers!
 
odie said:
well mine mash all day while I'm at work. So I get a mash out is meaningless for me after 8-10 hours?
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Does your temps stay steady for all that time, or do you let it naturally cool?
|In either case, I'd think that by that time there's nothing to be gained by mashing out.
 
I batch sparge (2x) using a converted cooler as mash tun. 5.5 gallon batches mostly, occasionally 11 gallon ones.

Like you, I start heating the wort as it lauters. As soon as I collected around 1.5-2 gallons, I pour it into the boil kettle and start heating. Then adding to it as I lauter more. That's effectively a mashout, IMO. It's almost impossible to heat the mash in a plastic cooler to mashout temps, without sacrificing lauter efficiency.

The 1st sparge is done with water hot enough to raise the grain bed to around 168-170F. The 2nd sparge with the leftover water at whatever temp it is.

Where step mashes are useful or wanted, I mash in the boil kettle with direct heat (induction) and good stirring, do the mashout, then transfer to the cooler for lautering and sparging.
 
jrgtr42 said:
Does your temps stay steady for all that time, or do you let it naturally cool?
|In either case, I'd think that by that time there's nothing to be gained by mashing out.
Click to expand...
have a temp controller and recirc pump going all day. I get home and it's boil time. saves me a couple hours or more.
 
odie said:
well mine mash all day while I'm at work. So I get a mash out is meaningless for me after 8-10 hours?
Click to expand...

ha!
I work from home so I mill and mash in on my lunch then just let it sit until quitting time then boil.
but i just let it sit there.
no recirculation.

makes for an easy brew day when broken up like that.
 
day_trippr said:
The mash-out paradigm exists in support of continuous/"fly sparging" at the classic "one quart per minute" rate. When batches get into 13-14 gallon pre-boil size, you're looking at the last runnings happening almost an hour from the start of the sparge, which without mitigation would surely have shifted towards fermentability. The mash-out basically staples the fermentability down...

Cheers!
Click to expand...
Day tripper, this brings up a second question: what's the point of a "one quart per minute" fly sparge. I recirculate throughout the mash so no reason for a vorlauf, right into the sparge. If all you want to do is rinse the sugar from the grain, why not do that at twice that?
 
odie said:
have a temp controller and recirc pump going all day. I get home and it's boil time. saves me a couple hours or more.
Click to expand...
Do your beers tend to be darker than expected or anything? Just wondering if there were any side effects of mashing for so long.
 
Snuffy said:
Do your beers tend to be darker than expected or anything? Just wondering if there were any side effects of mashing for so long.
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I've never done an all day mash, but the wort can't caramelize or myarde (spelling) at that temp, so I would guess there should not be any darkening of the mash/wort. :mug:
 
cmac62 said:
Day tripper, this brings up a second question: what's the point of a "one quart per minute" fly sparge. I recirculate throughout the mash so no reason for a vorlauf, right into the sparge. If all you want to do is rinse the sugar from the grain, why not do that at twice that?
Click to expand...

One really must understand the mechanical difference between "batch sparging" and "fly sparging". The former simply homogenizes remaining sugars in the grain post-first-run-off, and can be immediately drained without negative repercussions to yield. Further, if there is sufficient kettle volume, the sparge can be repeated.

"Fly sparge" is a one-and-done, continuous sparge, where one gently adds sparge liquor to the top of the mash while draining wort from the bottom. The speed is kept very low to avoid compacting the grain bed which promotes channeling - indeed, one hopes to have a marked change in SG along the way indicating there wasn't serious mixing or channeling. and as well, end up with very low remaining sugars once pre-boil volume is reached. There is no "do over", it has to be done right the first time.

Cheers!
 
Snuffy said:
Do your beers tend to be darker than expected or anything? Just wondering if there were any side effects of mashing for so long.
Click to expand...
none that I have noted. I'm assuming 100% conversion. So it's really just a matter of lauter or sparge efficiency.

I do plan to split my grain bill next time. Only base malts in the mash and then add in the crystal and roasted malts to steep when I get home before I mash out. I hadn't thought about tannins and such but have not really noted any harsh flavors from mashing crystal and dark malts for 10 hours. But it could simply I just didn't recognize the tannins...IDK...
 
day_trippr said:
"Fly sparge" is a one-and-done, continuous sparge, where one gently adds sparge liquor to the top of the mash while draining wort from the bottom. The speed is kept very low to avoid compacting the grain bed which promotes channeling
Click to expand...
I figured the compacting and channeling would be the first response. I get it for sure, but batch sparging is so much easier and can be as effective. Okay, I guess running a pump/gravity feed into the mash tun is not too taxing. I personally like the simplicity and efficacy of batch sparging. When I started I had a cooler MT, drain it, but some hot water in (even hot is not required), run it off and start the boil. :mug:
 
Yes, batch sparging "can be as effective" - but it'll take at least a double batch sparge to get close to a middle-of-the-road fly sparge execution, and three times for a perfect fly sparge (I've had a few). I believe @doug293z has done that math.

It seems some folks think the choice of sparge method approaches choosing a religion - and they want to save us fly-spargers :D

Cheers!
 
I heat my sparge water I add after collecting the first runnings hot enough to heat the grain mixture to about 75-80c and let it sit 5 minutes before collecting, I guess that counts as a mashout.
Is it really necessary? Dunno but it costs so little extra time and gives a little extra insurance against further conversion during the time it takes to collect all my wort in the bk.
 
cmac62 said:
Is a mash out really necessary? Thanks in advance. :mug:
Click to expand...

No, it comes from homebrewers wanting to emulate what commercial brewers do. If you have a mash tun for a 7-10bbl brewery, it takes a while to drain off your first runnings and fly sparge all that grain. I ran some experiments a few years back and didn't notice any improvement in the beer with a mash out, so I quit doing it. However, your results may be different than mine, so try it both ways yourself and see if you notice a difference.
Here's Brulosophy's experiment with and without a mashout:
https://brulosophy.com/2019/08/12/the-mashout-effect-exbeeriment-results/
 
Particularly with a thick mash, the higher temperature of the mash out will reduce the wort viscosity and should allow for better drainage of the first runnings. I think this should result in more effective batch sparging but would it be noticeable?
 
While it may not be necessary, I have gained 10% efficiency with my electric BIAB (Anvil) setup by doing the following:

1. change my crush to .030
2. 170 degree mashout for 10 minutes.
3. Sparge with 1 gallon of water (170 degrees or so)

Costs me nothing other than maybe an extra 20 minutes or so.

I'll keep doing it.
 
Okay, so to clarify for my simple brain here:
(I've an electric 3 kettle set-up)
Currently I mash, then increase temp to 168 once mash is done, rest at that temp for a period, then start adding sparge water and slowly draw off wort to boil kettle. (As mentioned above that can take up to an hour to fill the kettle when drawing off 13.5 gallons)
So now instead:
Mash as usual then once that's complete increase temp to 168 don't bother resting, add sparge and draw off wort but don't worry about going so slow just pull it off quick enough as long as it's not channeling\compacting the grain bed? (I guess I could run the pumps as quick as I do while circulating)
That would cut my brew day down quite a bit.

E.
 
Everhard said:
Okay, so to clarify for my simple brain here:
(I've an electric 3 kettle set-up)
Currently I mash, then increase temp to 168 once mash is done, rest at that temp for a period, then start adding sparge water and slowly draw off wort to boil kettle. (As mentioned above that can take up to an hour to fill the kettle when drawing off 13.5 gallons)
So now instead:
Mash as usual then once that's complete increase temp to 168 don't bother resting, add sparge and draw off wort but don't worry about going so slow just pull it off quick enough as long as it's not channeling\compacting the grain bed? (I guess I could run the pumps as quick as I do while circulating)
That would cut my brew day down quite a bit.

E.
Click to expand...
E. you are doing a fly sparge and adding the water at the same rate it is draining into the BK? The batch sparge is you drain your 1st runnings into the BK, then add the sparge water stir and drain. With the batch sparge you can drain quickly, but the fly sparge does take time as you don't want to go fast as this would increase the chances of channeling and reduce the effectiveness.

I realized you probably already know this stuff, but I thought may as well post it. Don't hurt no one. :mug:
 
Lol you know it! Don't hurt a soul. Ya I fly sparge. I'm just wondering if I can afford to not? (Not that I mind, it's fun, and it doesn't take effort, just thinking if I can cut down my brew day a bit.)
I should experiment I suppose.

E.
 
Yes, you can surely cut down your brew day a bit - and you can do it in at least a couple of ways.

First, switch to batch sparging. If you're doing 10 gallon batches that's going to save a half hour at least.
Then, decide how aggressive you want to be wrt extract efficiency: if your current fly sparging was classically efficient, you're going to need to do at least a two step batch sparge, and maybe even three step; versus adding an extra pound or two of base malt to skip a multi-step batch sparge and "save" even more time.

In the end it really is all about time...

Cheers!
 
I fly sparge and always mash out. It also helps when you are trying to make the same beer and have the same consistency from batch to batch of the same recipe. When you mash out the recipe is locked in and when you don't you can make a different strength beer each time you make the recipe. So doing a mash out does help if you are trying to duplicate that stellar beer you made last year and want to repeat it as close as possible.

John
 
jcav said:
I fly sparge and always mash out. It also helps when you are trying to make the same beer and have the same consistency from batch to batch of the same recipe. When you mash out the recipe is locked in and when you don't you can make a different strength beer each time you make the recipe. So doing a mash out does help if you are trying to duplicate that stellar beer you made last year and want to repeat it as close as possible.

John
Click to expand...
I also understand the consistency argument. The whole idea of MO is to kill off the enzymes which happens at 170 or above. Do you then do a rest at MO temps or just start sparging with 170 H20? Also, when do you start heating to a boil? With a 1 qt per minute sparge rate you have two gallons in the BK in 8 minutes. Or, do you wait until your whole batch is in the kettle before putting the spurs to it? I guess that is one of the main reasons I prefer batch sparging, (or full volume no sparge with my newish Anvil) you empty the MT into the BK (pull the grain pipe) and light the fire, boil and MO/sparge happen at the same time. :mug:
 
fwiw, as soon as my mash measures 168°F I start the fly-sparge, by setting the run-off pump rate and allowing the autosparge valve to control the sparge pump rate (it's a wonderful thing). By the time that temperature is reached the last of the enzymes are history. And as soon as I get a couple of gallons in the kettle I fire up its burner at a modest level to begin - there's likely another 50-something minutes to go before the pre-boil is reached and along the way I'm continually ramping the boil burner...

Cheers!
 
Thanks y'all, basically re-affirm that I'll just continue on as I'm doing. Fly sparging is giving me a great efficiency, and frankly simpler in my books vs batch sparging. For myself that is! Not saying easier for everyone else.

E.
 
jcav said:
So doing a mash out does help if you are trying to duplicate that stellar beer you made last year and want to repeat it as close as possible.
Click to expand...

I know that beer that I made last year was stellar, but it's hard for me to remember exactly what it tasted like, because I've been drinking since then. And If I had bottled up some of it, it would have matured over the year, slightly changing it as well.
 
Dr_Jeff said:
I know that beer that I made last year was stellar, but it's hard for me to remember exactly what it tasted like, because I've been drinking since then. And If I had bottled up some of it, it would have matured over the year, slightly changing it as well.
Click to expand...

Yes and if you wanted to repeat it and you took good notes on your process that day, and did a mash out, you would probably duplicate that dandy beer!

John
 
jcav said:
Yes and if you wanted to repeat it and you took good notes on your process that day, and did a mash out, you would probably duplicate that dandy beer!

John
Click to expand...


Notes ?

I fly sparge and the mash out happens in the kettle as the wort gets transferred to the kettle and the flame is on.

I write a recipe with BeerSmith, then get out the grain, if for instance it says 18.2 pounds of base malt, I might get 18, might get 19 or wtf, 20 is close enough. When it come to hops, most of the time full ounces, or if there isn't much left to put up, wtf it all goes in, it will be good beer and I will be happy. I have several hydrometers and a refractometer, don't bother using any of them, if the recipe says the beer should be 7.3% abv, if it ends up being 6.9 or 8, it's still beer and I'll be happy and drink it. I'm just brewing for me and anyone that happens to come over. The Chief of Police has been by and sampled several as well, I'll share it with anyone that wants to try it and send them home with some if they want it. It's been years sine I brewed a beer that I wasn't happy with the outcome and brewed enough different beers that it doesn't matter. Now due to my present job role, I've only brewed twice in about the last two years, but still have a bunch of beer on-deck and in four solaras(two of which are oak barrels), and currently a Belgian Golden Strong in an oak barrel as well, that went into the barrel when I was home around Christmas.

Now there was one beer that I brewed a long time ago, that this guy came over to help and kept asking how we could make it bigger, it was a RIS that ended up somewhere near 18%. I would like to have another batch of that, but really don't have a clue as to how much grain was actually used, as we ended up doing a partygyle for the second & third beers from that grain, used multiple process on the big RIS (boiled down some of the first runnings separately into almost a syrup and added it back to the main boil) , and started with WLP-006 yeast and added several vials of WLP-099 several days into it (as soon as we could get it there since the original plan was for a "more normal" beer). And to add to the confusion, we were drinking during that brew as well. I do have a bottle or two of that beer left. The last few that I've opened, I've shared with special friends. I called that beer, "The Big Monster RIS".

All blasphemy, I know.
 
Dr_Jeff said:
Notes ?
Click to expand...

Haha, I know. Everyone brews differently and does what works for them. For me I use BeerSmith and follow my recipe but I also have a note book that I have next to my computer. I write stuff down during the brew day for each brew I do. I usually will write down what time I started heating strike water, what time I reached mash temp, What time the rest was over, then if I step mash what time I started ramping to that temp, and what time I reached the temp and started that step. What temp I mashed out at and how long.

Nothing crazy but simple short notes along the way. I particularly note what time I started to fly sparge and what time I ended with a full boil kettle. What time I pitched the yeast and at what temp. Just stuff along the way. Then when I want to make the same beer again I can see what I did last time and it does help a lot having the notes. If I do something differently that day I write that down in the notes and see if the beer is even better or not. I know it's just beer, but it's something I have always done and after 19 years brewing some habits are hard to break!

John
 
The purpose of the mash-out is oft times explained as “stopping all enzymic action”, “denaturing the enzymes” or “killing the enzymes.” It does this but the boil they’ll shortly endure should take care of the “killing” part. Raising the mash to a mash-out temp decreases the viscosity of the wort and makes it easier to extract the sugars into the kettle. Many homebrewers don’t mash-out for one reason or another. Unless you’ve mashed to provide a wort high in dextrins, the mash-out can be skipped. The mash-out can increase your efficiency but to a much lesser degree than your choice of lauter and sparge.
 
Snuffy said:
Sounds tempting but I don't think I'd have the yarbles to let the pump run unattended all day.
Click to expand...

I do a recirculated mash, and I don't like walking away for even short periods while the pump is running (fear of something coming loose and hot wort being pumped across my kitchen floor at high velocity, or something blocking a tube and the pump burning out).

I'm probably being overly cautious, that is true, but there's no way I could ever let the pump run on an all-day mash while I was at work or shopping. Nope.
 

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