What's the difference between base malts?

[BansheeRider]

New AG brewer here. So what's the difference between marris otter, two row, six row, etc etc. Specialty grains are a given so I'm just wondering about base malt. Unless certain base malts must be used with certain specialty grains.

 

[TimelessCynic]

Two row is light in flavor
Maris otter has a more biscuit flavor
Vienna is another base malt that has more flavor than a 2 row. 6 row is used in conjunction with other grains that have difficulty in converting themselves. Similarly light to 2 row

All can be used at 100% of grain bill

I don't brew with 2 row. I might buy a sack later. Right now i have 55 lb sacks of Maris, vienna and munich light in my garage. All lend more flavor than 2 row but not a goal if you want to make a real light clean beer.

 

[insanim8er]

There you go

 

[rklinck]

2 row v 6 row refers to the type of barley. The vast majority of base malts are made from 2 row. If I remember correctly, 6 Row has lower enzyme content (so it takes longer to convert starch to sugar and is not as good at helping convert adjuncts). I pretty much only see 6 row used in darker malts at my local brew shops.

Each base malt imparts it's own flavor -- with 2 Row Brewer's malt being the least flavorful. Pilsner is very light but imparts a sweetness to the beer. Maris Otter, Vienna, and Munich all impart more malty flavors. If you are going to a clean beer where the hops shine, you will tend to want to use 2 Row Brewers Malt or Pale Ale Malt. If you want more malt backbone, you will want to use more of the other base malts.

 

[masonsjax]

I think it's the other way around, 6-row has more diastatic power. It also has more husk material. So you can use it in wheat and rye beers in place of rice hulls, and use it when your recipe has a lot of grain that needs help converting.

 

[TimelessCynic]

i think it's the other way around, 6-row has more diastatic power. It also has more husk material. So you can use it in wheat and rye beers in place of rice hulls, and use it when your recipe has a lot of grain that needs help converting.

+1

 

[TrickyDick]

Someone posted a nice write up comparing six or so different English base malts. I found it on the homepage on my PC browser. Does a good job of explaining the differences in color including photos, and subjective flavor and tasting notes. Its worth a read.

TD

 

[C-Rider]

Not sure why so many posts were deleted. If the OP will Google base malts for brewing he will come up w/many links with lots of information, much more that any of us would spend the time typing away. I keep a few of the links I've found bookmarked so I can refer back to them from time to time.

 

[Psycotte]

This might help....

http://byo.com/component/k2/item/710-grain-on-the-brain

 

[BansheeRider]

Not sure why so many posts were deleted. If the OP will Google base malts for brewing he will come up w/many links with lots of information, much more that any of us would spend the time typing away. I keep a few of the links I've found bookmarked so I can refer back to them from time to time.

Sure lets google everything. Perhaps google can put HBT out of business

 

[AnOldUR]

Not sure why so many posts were deleted. If the OP will Google . . .

HBT Rule 13:

13. No use of "Google it", or "Try Searching". If a question has been answered before, answer it again or with nicety provide a link rather than copying/pasting content from elsewhere on the forum. Berating or poking fun at "noobs" for not searching will not be allowed.

 

[billl]

The only real way to get to know the flavors is to taste them, but generally...

Pilsner - very light with a bit of grainy sweetness.
American 2-row - clean and mild - the base of most commecial ales
American pale - clean and mild but a bit darker and more malt forward
English pale - (like marris otter) - fuller, slightly darker, moving into bready or biscuity flavors
Vienna - starting to get an orangish hue, dry, light toasty flavors starting
Munich - amber, definite bready and toasty notes in both taste and aroma.

 

[Kee]

Wait- Belgian Pils is not the only base malt?

Kidding aside, I think getting experienced brewers' opinion on the subject is one of the better ideas I have seen lately.

 

[TrickyDick]

Since this is topically related, what are the big differences between Weyermann Pilsner and Weyermann Bohemian Floor Malted Pilsner used as base malt? I am never sure when to use one over the other.

I will say that learning about the various malt types and how to use them in brewing really is best learned through experimentation and, well, just brewing more and more. Its often very difficult for me to discern subtle flavors in the malt and often even in the hops to be able to tease out small differences, in part due to bad allergies and congestion I think. Comparing beers side by side I am much better at this than when tasting a beer by itself.

TD

 

[blakelyc]

Since this is topically related, what are the big differences between Weyermann Pilsner and Weyermann Bohemian Floor Malted Pilsner used as base malt? I am never sure when to use one over the other.

I will say that learning about the various malt types and how to use them in brewing really is best learned through experimentation and, well, just brewing more and more. Its often very difficult for me to discern subtle flavors in the malt and often even in the hops to be able to tease out small differences, in part due to bad allergies and congestion I think. Comparing beers side by side I am much better at this than when tasting a beer by itself.

TD

I haven't brewed with them both side-by-side, but I tasted beers of a friend who did. The bohemian floor-malted pils resulted in a slightly darker beer that was more cereal grainy in flavor. I can't speak for his brewing consistency, but both germs were conducted identically. I preferred the floor-malted one.

My intention is to use the regular pils when I am combining it with others, but use the floor-malted one for 100% pils beer. I can't say that the flavor was delicate, but I don't think I want it to compete--if that makes any sense.

 

[fearwig]

Sure lets google everything. Perhaps google can put HBT out of business

Usually it turns up a HBT thread! And about 20 duped threads from people who couldn't find the original thread with the in-site search, because the only effective way to search HBT is with a google site search...

Anyway, surprised no one posted this, since it's front and center on the main page. Pretty neat.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/entries/English-Base-malt-comparison.html

 

[Yuri_Rage]

Stop the petty bickering and off topic arguing. Please read the following:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/faq.php?faq=vb3_board_faq#faq_rules_regulations

Let me draw your attention to rule #13: "13. No use of "Google it", or "Try Searching". If a question has been answered before, answer it again or with nicety provide a link rather than copying/pasting content from elsewhere on the forum. Berating or poking fun at "noobs" for not searching will not be allowed."

Back on topic, please.

 

[BansheeRider]

Sigh.....Just when it was getting fun.

Banshee. Y do u want to know the difference between base malts? Just curious or planning an AG brew?

For knowledge sake. I've only brewed two AG batches and both were 2 row malt. I was just curious what to expect if I were to use different malts, or if certain styles require specific malts. I think I would like to try a beer that uses marris otter for my next batch.

 

[TimelessCynic]

Maris otter IPA is killer! Throw a half pound of caramel/crystal malt in there and a lot of C hops and your beer will be delicious.

 

[PastorofMuppets]

is munich possible to use as a 100% base?
Most of what I have read suggest no more than 80%

 

[runningweird]

is munich possible to use as a 100% base?
Most of what I have read suggest no more than 80%

I've used it at full before, I make a great smash with Munich and cascades. If you mash low you get malt backbone without a lot of the sweetness.

 

[TimelessCynic]

I have used munich light at 100% of my grain bill. I did a smash with tettnanger.

As running weird states. Mash low. That's what I did and it turned out great. Nice and malty but not too sweet. Great orange color too. Tasted like a simple, nice, proper beer. One of my more favorite brews recently. I managed to kill a keg myself in about 10 days.

 

[pdxal]

100% Munich also makes a great traditional doppelbock.

 

[TimelessCynic]

100% Munich also makes a great traditional doppelbock.

Do you have a recipe handy? I have heard of doppelbocks but have no idea what they are. I'll get a better understanding after seeing a recipe.

Do you use munich light or dark?

 

[pdxal]

100% Munich 10L, OG 1.075-1.080, noble hops bittering only 25IBUs (I've used Perle and Mt. Hood too), mash @150, ferment with Wy2206 at 48-50, lager at 35 for 4-8 weeks before bottling and conditioning. Gets better with more age in the bottle too.
You might try Salvator or Celebrator, as well as Spaten's Optimator for an example.

 

[TimelessCynic]

@pdxal

I will definitely try that. Seems like a beer I would love.

Do you have success with washing wy2206?

When I tried to wash it off my last vienna lager i couldn't get the yeast to separate from the trub so my yield was pitiful. I have spent the last week and a bit propagating what was probably 25 ml of slurry up to 200 ml. Something like 5 liters and a pound of DME.

Your doppelbock would need around 300 ml and I would like to know how to wash this yeast correctly. It doesn't settle the same as other yeasts i have used. The stratification is just not there.

 

[masonsjax]

Evidence shows that washing yeast can be detrimental. The preferred method is to simply pitch the correct amount of slurry, trub included, or to save some as is for future starters.

 

[TimelessCynic]

In a nuttshell, how does it harm the yeast? Without washing how do i store it? Swirl whatever is remaining in primary. Wait for stratification and decant proper yeast layer without worrying about trub mixage? Or do i just pour all the slop into a jar?

Oops!! I meant yeast rinsing not washing.

 

[fearwig]

Maybe he means with soap.

I think that post was phrased in a misleadingly authoritative way though, I don't think there's a consensus on washing, just a lot of people with habits and opinions. I think the idea he's referring to is that the trub provides some nutrients in cold storage (correct me if wrong), but you should really get enough accidental trub in your washed yeast to supply that, if indeed it's necessary at all. Not much metabolic activity in fridged yeast anyway.

That said, I don't think trub is going to do stored yeast any harm either, I think people just like to know their x mL vial of yeast is "all yeast".

Anyway, getting off topic now, sorry. How about them base malts.

 

[masonsjax]

In a nuttshell, how does it harm the yeast? Without washing how do i store it? Swirl whatever is remaining in primary. Wait for stratification and decant proper yeast layer without worrying about trub mixage? Or do i just pour all the slop into a jar?

Oops!! I meant yeast rinsing not washing.

I don't want to derail this thread too much, but for those interested in what I meant by yeast rinsing being detrimental, I highly recommend reading this entire thread:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/why-not-pitch-your-yeast-cake-166221/

Post #1 describes what should be done instead and how.

Particularly pay attention to posts from the OP (bob) and EarlyAmateurZymurgist, especially toward the end of the thread (eg: posts #409 #426, #427).

 

[pdxal]

I don't want to derail this thread too much, but for those interested in what I meant by yeast rinsing being detrimental, I highly recommend reading this entire thread:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/why-not-pitch-your-yeast-cake-166221/

Post #1 describes what should be done instead and how.

Particularly pay attention to posts from the OP (bob) and EarlyAmateurZymurgist, especially toward the end of the thread (eg: posts #409 #426, #427).

I respectfully say that the thread is not "evidence". Research with things like yeast counts would be evidence.
That said, trub or no trub, pitching slurry or washed slurry, you will be able to make beer. Choose whichever method you want to use and use it. Maintain good sanitation regardless.
I haven't tried to wash WY2206, so I can't give advice on making it work. I've only made a starter, or made a 2 gallon starter beer in the carboy, chilled and decanted, then racked a doppelbock wort onto the cake.
Cheers.

 

[masonsjax]

I don't know about anyone else, but when an expert speaks up and talks about his area of expertise, I'm all ears. That thread may contain a bit of anecdotal evidence, but it's still evidence (I never claimed to have definitive proof). Some find it hard to change old habits, I definitely understand that, but yes the evidence shows yeast rinsing to potentially do more harm than good. Take it or leave it.

 

[TimelessCynic]

Not if you need to store it longer than 7 days.

And what affects the shelf life? The beer or the trub or both?

 

[fearwig]

I respectfully say that the thread is not "evidence". Research with things like yeast counts would be evidence.
That said, trub or no trub, pitching slurry or washed slurry, you will be able to make beer. Choose whichever method you want to use and use it. Maintain good sanitation regardless.
I haven't tried to wash WY2206, so I can't give advice on making it work. I've only made a starter, or made a 2 gallon starter beer in the carboy, chilled and decanted, then racked a doppelbock wort onto the cake.
Cheers.

It looks like a good thread, the problem is that it has zip to do with the claim that was derived from it--that washing is detrimental. It simply offers an alternative technique. That is the real danger of linking to perhaps scientifically sound material: people will use it to support any old conclusion.

The other problem with the technique described there is that your pitch rate will vary wildly based on the amount of trub in your cake, which could be all over the place depending on your brew technique. It will be consistent only within the same brewhouse, between one batch and the next given all the same mash techniques and approximately the same grain bill--that's grain protein, remember! So BIAB this way vs BIAB that way vs. false bottom vs. manifold with six-row vs. two-row vs. flaked wheat vs. whatever will make your trub volume vary, so if you are just measuring out cake by volume who knows what you're getting. Now, as always with yeast, who knows anyway? But at least doing a cursory visual separation of dark trub from light trub (more yeast, fresh yeast) is not "detrimental" by any standard.

Anyway, totally derailed now, but again: I didn't read the whole thread, but the word "washing" only appears once in that first post, and it's to say you can do this "without washing" (which it then describes as "advanced care of the yeast"). So... *head-desk*.

 

[TimelessCynic]

Post 409 said something to the effect of yeast in water is bad and yeast in beer is the best because the water can house micro floral bacteria or some other jargon i have no understanding of.

If I consider myself a level 5 out of possible level 10 brewer i really don't care for microbiological explanations. I have no capacity to comprehend them or challenge them.