What's going on here? Bretts infection in every attempt at mead.

[Habs]

Hey there folks.

I just wanted to pick your brains and see if I can solve a problem I've been having.

First of all, I'm a winemaker. I've been making wine at home for a few years now. I'm no stranger to proper equipment sanitizing, healthy wine yeast smells, or keeping a good lab and proper measurements.

That said, every time I try to make mead the whole batch becomes infected with Bretts and I have to throw it out along with all the equipment I used. Costly gamble. I've tried four times now and gotten the same result every time.

Yes, it's Bretts for sure. It's sour smelling, like vomit and bandaids and horses. It leaves behind tiny nodules on the glass equipment - which is the Bretts "biofilm." And lastly, it makes that lovely Bretts scum across the top.

So then, on to my process. I've read that using heat to "pasteurize" the honey kills its flavors and aromas, and that's the last thing I want, so instead I've treated mead mixtures with potassium metabisulfite a day ahead of time, and then pitched yeast. All new equipment being used every time. Yeast was EC-1118 the last three times, because it's supposed to beat out any other competing yeasts. Not so with Bretts. Despite the K-meta, the EC-1118, and the new and freshly sanitized equipment, the Bretts crops up in my meads. (Oh yes, and 3 different types of honey were used for each attempt).

So what am I missing here? I've made loads of wine over the years, both from wine grapes and fruit from the store, all turned out great and infection free. Mead? As soon as that honey gets in there it's a goner.

(But really, if there was wild yeast in the honey, wouldn't it ferment in the bottle?)

Anyway. Thoughts are appreciated. I think I may have to try heating the honey next time I give it a go, although it seems fruitless since I read that Bretts persists in temps excess of 300. Frustrating.

-Habs

 

[Maylar]

This is odd indeed. Bretts is supposed to be particularly sensitive to SO2, so your K-Meta treatment should have killed it. If the only thing different here is honey, what is your source of that? And what kind of water are you using?

 

[Miraculix]

Water and honey would also be my first question.

Brett usually does not get that sour and also doesn't generate bandaid flavour or vomit flavour.

Sounds more like something bacterial and or chlorinated water to me.

Loads of organisms create a biofilm, that's no prove for Brett.

 

[NeverDie]

Are you doing nutrient additions? You don't mention any. You need it for mead. If not, it might be that your yeast is crippled and then something else takes over.

If you you are doing nutrition additions, then I have a suggestion. Try doing it the way Bray does it: inside the same jug that you buy the bottled springwater in. Add your honey to that, and then pitch your EC1118 directly from the packet without rehydration (yes, heresy, I know). This will virtually eliminate all possible sources of contamination, except for your nutrient additions. If it still gets infected on you, then there is probably something wrong with your nutes (perhaps they are infected or something) or else maybe your yeast just isn't viable in the first place.

And if it does get infected, you won't have anything costly to throw out aside from your ingredients.

Also, how much EC1118 are you pitching? Maybe you are underpitching. You need more than for wine.

Also, OG would be nice to know and might help troubleshoot.

 

[Maylar]

" Ethyl phenol is the characteristic odour of Brettanomyces contamination. It is produced in red wines by Brettanomyes yeasts during barrel ageing, and - occasionally - after bottling. The compound imparts an unpleasant band aid-like character, described as medicinal or horsey"

 

[Habs]

This is odd indeed. Bretts is supposed to be particularly sensitive to SO2, so your K-Meta treatment should have killed it. If the only thing different here is honey, what is your source of that? And what kind of water are you using?

My tap water. It's not heavily chlorinated, it's from local wells that are sourced to a tank that feeds our neighborhood. I've been using it for all of my wines without issue, but maybe this is the key to my puzzle. Perhaps I should try some bottled water.

Are you doing nutrient additions? You don't mention any. You need it for mead. If not, it might be that your yeast is crippled and then something else takes over.

If you you are doing nutrition additions, then I have a suggestion. Try doing it the way Bray does it: inside the same jug that you buy the bottled springwater in. Add your honey to that, and then pitch your EC1118 directly from the packet without rehydration (yes, heresy, I know). This will virtually eliminate all possible sources of contamination, except for your nutrient additions. If it still gets infected on you, then there is probably something wrong with your nutes (perhaps they are infected or something) or else maybe your yeast just isn't viable in the first place.

And if it does get infected, you won't have anything costly to throw out aside from your ingredients.

Also, how much EC1118 are you pitching? Maybe you are underpitching. You need more than for wine.

Also, OG would be nice to know and might help troubleshoot.

Ah, you're right, might not be enough nutrient. Added maybe 1 tsp total and fermentation was rather slow for my warm house. I was doing half a packet of yeast for a gallon, after learning that a whole packet was leading me to stressed out yeast. I have no problem pitching a yeast dry onto a wine. Some kits even say to do it. In my personal experience, it makes no difference. OG was high for a mead on my four attempts, (wine levels at around 1.100), but my plan was always to stop fermentation early so that the residual sugar would sweeten the mead. Could this have contributed to my problems?

You guys gave great advice, I'm glad I came here. I'll try my next batch in the gallon water jug, as suggested, along with the other suggestions here. With luck, the elusive mead will no longer be my failure. Thank you!

-Habs

 

[NeverDie]

My tap water. It's not heavily chlorinated, it's from local wells that are sourced to a tank that feeds our neighborhood. I've been using it for all of my wines without issue, but maybe this is the key to my puzzle. Perhaps I should try some bottled water.



Ah, you're right, might not be enough nutrient. Added maybe 1 tsp total and fermentation was rather slow for my warm house. I was doing half a packet of yeast for a gallon, after learning that a whole packet was leading me to stressed out yeast. I have no problem pitching a yeast dry onto a wine. Some kits even say to do it. In my personal experience, it makes no difference. OG was high for a mead on my four attempts, (wine levels at around 1.100), but my plan was always to stop fermentation early so that the residual sugar would sweeten the mead. Could this have contributed to my problems?

You guys gave great advice, I'm glad I came here. I'll try my next batch in the gallon water jug, as suggested, along with the other suggestions here. With luck, the elusive mead will no longer be my failure. Thank you!

-Habs

Be sure to report back so that others may learn from your experience.

 

[Habs]

You got it.

 

[RPh_Guy]

What sanitizer are you using? What cleaning agent(s)? It's worth a closer look at your process since you're dealing with contamination.
Definitely consider Pasteurizing your honey; 180°F for 10 min would be fine. It's really unlikely you'll have heat-tolerant microbes.

+1 to using chlorine-free water.

Management of the Sacc fermentation shouldn't have much effect on Brett, so I wouldn't focus on that.

Brett (and other wild microbes) can sometimes form a biofilm so it may be residing somewhere on your equipment. Plastic & rubber equipment may need to be replaced.

If you aren't already doing so, I'd also recommend minimizing oxygen after fermentation and keeping sulfite levels up (0.8-1ppm molecular SO2).

Bretts is supposed to be particularly sensitive to SO2, so your K-Meta treatment should have killed it.

Some can be sulfite tolerant. I've heard it's a common contaminant in barrel aged wines.
I've personally had (delicious) Brett flavor and pellicle from an unpasteurized cider that I treated with sulfite.

Hope this helps

 

[wildmazer]

there's no reason that a full packet of yeast in a gallon would stress the yeast. if anything it should get a competitive yeast like 1118 to a point where it outcompetes its competition faster.

 

[Habs]

What sanitizer are you using? What cleaning agent(s)? It's worth a closer look at your process since you're dealing with contamination.
Definitely consider Pasteurizing your honey; 180°F for 10 min would be fine. It's really unlikely you'll have heat-tolerant microbes.

+1 to using chlorine-free water.

Management of the Sacc fermentation shouldn't have much effect on Brett, so I wouldn't focus on that.

Brett (and other wild microbes) can sometimes form a biofilm so it may be residing somewhere on your equipment. Plastic & rubber equipment may need to be replaced.

If you aren't already doing so, I'd also recommend minimizing oxygen after fermentation and keeping sulfite levels up (0.8-1ppm molecular SO2).


Some can be sulfite tolerant. I've heard it's a common contaminant in barrel aged wines.
I've personally had (delicious) Brett flavor and pellicle from an unpasteurized cider that I treated with sulfite.

Hope this helps

Starsan to sanitize, Oxyclean Free and Clear and a good scrub for cleaning. But since my last three batches of mead attempts have been with new equipment each time, I doubt it's a cleanliness issue. Yes, I've seen the biofilm before on the first 1 gallon big mouth bubbler I had. I scrubbed. I boiled. I bleached. I lamented. But ultimately, the little dots on the side of the glass persisted, and my sugar water tests continually made more bretts. Had to throw it out. I once heard that the best way to remove Bretts in a winery was to burn the winery down and move 50 miles away. I don't think the phrase was overly dramatic anymore, haha

And oxygen levels are always minimized after fermentation, as oxygen is the enemy of wine.

there's no reason that a full packet of yeast in a gallon would stress the yeast. if anything it should get a competitive yeast like 1118 to a point where it outcompetes its competition faster.

I had thought the same thing, but I noticed time and again that when I used a whole packet of yeast in 1 gallon batches the wine would make sulfur aromas, and half a packet eliminated that. My house is usually around 80F, so yeast tend to go nuts and get stressed easily here. A find myself having to supplement a lot of kit wines with yeast nutrient because the yeast are working so hard and fast in the heat. Something I'll attempt to control with ice this summer.

 

[NeverDie]

I had thought the same thing, but I noticed time and again that when I used a whole packet of yeast in 1 gallon batches the wine would make sulfur aromas, and half a packet eliminated that. My house is usually around 80F, so yeast tend to go nuts and get stressed easily here. A find myself having to supplement a lot of kit wines with yeast nutrient because the yeast are working so hard and fast in the heat. Something I'll attempt to control with ice this summer.

That sounds like a clue. I can't speak to wine, but for mead I've direct pitched two packets of EC1118 into one gallon of 1.080 OG must without getting sulfur.

 

[Maylar]

Starsan to sanitize, Oxyclean Free and Clear and a good scrub for cleaning. But since my last three batches of mead attempts have been with new equipment each time, I doubt it's a cleanliness issue. Yes, I've seen the biofilm before on the first 1 gallon big mouth bubbler I had. I scrubbed. I boiled. I bleached. I lamented. But ultimately, the little dots on the side of the glass persisted, and my sugar water tests continually made more bretts. Had to throw it out. I once heard that the best way to remove Bretts in a winery was to burn the winery down and move 50 miles away. I don't think the phrase was overly dramatic anymore, haha

Dude, you're scaring me. If sugar water can grow funky stuff, then I'm doomed.

My house is usually around 80F, so yeast tend to go nuts and get stressed easily here. A find myself having to supplement a lot of kit wines with yeast nutrient because the yeast are working so hard and fast in the heat. Something I'll attempt to control with ice this summer.

Could you try that with your next batch?

 

[Habs]

That sounds like a clue. I can't speak to wine, but for mead I've direct pitched two packets of EC1118 into one gallon of 1.080 OG must without getting sulfur.

I just went back over my notes and realized that the first mead took around two weeks to drop SG. Being as my house is so warm, that's a major clue. Just wasn't enough nutrient.

Dude, you're scaring me. If sugar water can grow funky stuff, then I'm doomed.



Could you try that with your next batch?

Yeah. Currently my "lab" is in a spacious laundry room with a garage door. I crack the garage door to let the cold air in and close the laundry room door a bit. My recent 6-gallon wine pitch is finally dry after ten days of ferment, which is an improvement over the typical 5 day sprint my ferments usually perform.

I'll head to the store on Monday and grab a gallon of chlorine free water and a pound or so of honey to give this another shot. Got plenty of yeast nutrient in my bag of tricks, so I'll make sure to feed the must plenty and keep it on the cool side (which, for me, is like 67). I'll make sure to report results. Fingers crossed.

 

[DevilDogmeadguy]

I think the issue is a stalled OR stressed yeast is mentioned before. Once that happens the yeast itself will smell awful and smell like alcohol and farts. Oxygen is the enemy of wine, but not yeast CO2 is your enemy in the first 72 hours and oxygen is your friend. CO2 is toxic to your yeast, to help your yeast out add 25% nutrients and energizer in your primary, then again after 24 hours, again the next day and then when there's about 25% sugar left the rest. Stir your Mead a few times a day to release CO2 for a few minutes to help the yeast out. I know there's a debate about this technique BUT I SWEAR BY IT. Any stress to your yeast creates odors and off tastes (fuesils) which will take even more time to age out. It's not the honey, I've used raw honey which has wild yeasts in it from the honey comb and have not had this issue. I have also had my yeast stress out and create some awful smells, which I only was able to alleviate by stirring and releasing CO2. Good luck and keep us up to date!

 

[bernardsmith]

Just thinking aloud here: you say you replaced all your equipment and so of course you replaced everything you use to clean your equipment.. right? Could the brett be in brushes or scrubbers?

 

[NeverDie]

I just went back over my notes and realized that the first mead took around two weeks to drop SG. Being as my house is so warm, that's a major clue. Just wasn't enough nutrient.

You mean SG didn't drop at all for 2 weeks? Then, yes, I agree, that's the clue to follow-up on first and find out why that is. At 80F the SG should be dropping at least some in the first 24 hours, and for sure within the first 48 hours.

That makes for two interesting clues then: that, and the other clue that pitching a whole packet leads to sulfur odors, but not 1/2 packet. Something is stressing the yeast. Were you rehydrating in spring water? I've twice seen a full packet of yeast goes sulfurous shortly after rehydrating in RO water. Switching to spring water fixed that.

I hypothesis something went wrong at the rehydration phase that's crippling your yeast. Test that hypothesis by direct pitching without rehydration and see.

 

[Maylar]

This still doesn't explain where the Brett is coming from.

 

[NeverDie]

Well, if it were Brett contamination from the beginning, wouldn't Brett by itself make the SG fall within the first two weeks? I've never had Brett,and am no Brett expert, but it sounds to me the Brett gets introduced later.

 

[Maylar]

The OP said he gets Brett even in a sugar water ferment. That's got nothing to do with nutrients etc. It's gotta be contamination of some sort.

 

[NeverDie]

 

[Blacksmith1]

Is it possible that this is an environmental infection? Something living in the house?

 

[Habs]

I think the issue is a stalled OR stressed yeast is mentioned before. Once that happens the yeast itself will smell awful and smell like alcohol and farts. Oxygen is the enemy of wine, but not yeast CO2 is your enemy in the first 72 hours and oxygen is your friend. CO2 is toxic to your yeast, to help your yeast out add 25% nutrients and energizer in your primary, then again after 24 hours, again the next day and then when there's about 25% sugar left the rest. Stir your Mead a few times a day to release CO2 for a few minutes to help the yeast out. I know there's a debate about this technique BUT I SWEAR BY IT. Any stress to your yeast creates odors and off tastes (fuesils) which will take even more time to age out. It's not the honey, I've used raw honey which has wild yeasts in it from the honey comb and have not had this issue. I have also had my yeast stress out and create some awful smells, which I only was able to alleviate by stirring and releasing CO2. Good luck and keep us up to date!

Yeah, oxygen is great during the ferment. A good stir usually helps a lot of smells, but I've also noticed that proper nutrients eliminate the smells, and thus the need to mess with it at all. I'm a lazy brewer.

Just thinking aloud here: you say you replaced all your equipment and so of course you replaced everything you use to clean your equipment.. right? Could the brett be in brushes or scrubbers?

I didn't use brushes, only a sponge. That gets replaced often anyway cause StarSan eats it. Tossed the hoses and racking cane, tossed primary and secondary vessels. Had a moment of guilt, hoping that whoever works in the recycle yard isn't a brewer with an eye on free bottles/carboys.

You mean SG didn't drop at all for 2 weeks? Then, yes, I agree, that's the clue to follow-up on first and find out why that is. At 80F the SG should be dropping at least some in the first 24 hours, and for sure within the first 48 hours.

That makes for two interesting clues then: that, and the other clue that pitching a whole packet leads to sulfur odors, but not 1/2 packet. Something is stressing the yeast. Were you rehydrating in spring water? I've twice seen a full packet of yeast goes sulfurous shortly after rehydrating in RO water. Switching to spring water fixed that.

I hypothesis something went wrong at the rehydration phase that's crippling your yeast. Test that hypothesis by direct pitching without rehydration and see.

It did drop, just very slowly. Let's check my notes here... my first attempt (over two years ago) had a SG of 1.100, then it took 12 days to drop to 1.020. At that point I noted a white film forming across the top, even though the taste was still pleasant. By the 21st day I had dumped it, because it was so very rotten and unpleasant (and fermentation had stopped). All my attempts after that were very similar. I was adding the nutrient, but now I'm positive I need to add much more.

Is it possible that this is an environmental infection? Something living in the house?

If it was something in the house then wouldn't it also infect the wine I make?

If my next attempt with bottled water and extra nutrient is a success, then we can probably deduce a lot more. It's possible that after my initial Bretts infection (and subsequent purging of materials), I resigned myself to all failures being some kind of Bretts curse, when the reality was that it was simply another, equally foul malady moving in on my starving yeast. I shall endeavor to take better notes this time around.

 

[Blacksmith1]

Have you been making wines during the same time frame? Just asking so I have better idea what's going on.

 

[Habs]

Have you been making wines during the same time frame? Just asking so I have better idea what's going on.

Yes. I became especially paranoid when the mead would get infected and not the wine, haha

 

[Blacksmith1]

Same honey each time? If so try a different one. Natural anti biotic or not, if it can carry yeast I would think it could carry other organisims.

 

[NeverDie]

Same honey each time? If so try a different one. Natural anti biotic or not, if it can carry yeast I would think it could carry other organisims.

The OP says "(Oh yes, and 3 different types of honey were used for each attempt)."

 

[Blacksmith1]

Oops

 

[Habs]

Okay so Sunday I got bottled spring water, 1 gallon. Heated half of that to about 150, stirred in honey and took off the heat. Being extra cautious here. Combined with cooled spring water, added 2 tsp nutrient. Waited for mix to cool to a nice warm yeast temp, then dry pitched right on the mix.

OG 1.059

First day, little activity. Second day, still almost no activity. Added another tsp nutrient.

Today, lots of foamy bubbles, happy fizz. Smells good so far. Will take SG reading some time today. Fingers crossed.

 

[DevilDogmeadguy]

Okay so Sunday I got bottled spring water, 1 gallon. Heated half of that to about 150, stirred in honey and took off the heat. Being extra cautious here. Combined with cooled spring water, added 2 tsp nutrient. Waited for mix to cool to a nice warm yeast temp, then dry pitched right on the mix.

OG 1.059

First day, little activity. Second day, still almost no activity. Added another tsp nutrient.

Today, lots of foamy bubbles, happy fizz. Smells good so far. Will take SG reading some time today. Fingers crossed.

Make sure to stir it for a few minutes a couple times a day, let off some of that CO2 to keep the yeast happy.

 

[Habs]

Stirring frequently to let off smells. SG is only at 1.049 right now. Maybe more nutrient? Smells bad to me. Kinda like bandaids. But sometimes wine puts off odd smells during ferment, perhaps this is normal?

 

[NeverDie]

If I were you I would have left the spring water in the bottle, not take it out to where you have known contamination problems to heat it. If you pour the honey directly into the bottle and shake it for 5 minutes, it will dissolve. I've done it numerous times. This is the so-called no boil approach. Nothing gets heated.

Since you're plagued by contamination, I'd even suggest you don't take SG measurements (yet another possible source of contamination). I'm sure some here will disagree with me on that, but let's face it: if you keep failing you'll eventually give up. All you need is a scale to weigh how much honey you've poured in, the total weight when it's all put together, and then interim weighings to measure how much has been fermented: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/weighing-your-bomm.663190/

In fact, don't even use an airlock. Just let the lid be loose so that your bottle doen't explode. It's good enough. Lots of people do it that way, especially for el cheapo bottles of store bought fruit juice derived wine. The same thing works here.

If you do it like that, I'd say there's practically zero chance of getting contaminated.

Good luck!

 

[Habs]

And here I thought I was being extra careful.

I never use airlocks, I confess to the flagrant use of fresh towels thrown over buckets.

I'll look into this scale thing. Thanks.

 

[RPh_Guy]

2-3 days lag time means you need better yeast handling. Rehydrate with GoFerm at proper temps.

Also, you added non-sanitized yeast nutrient? Who to say that's not the source of the contamination (assuming that's what you repeatedly have)?

Carefully consider everything that gets added to your mead or touches it and think "could microbes be living on this?"

 

[Habs]

Okay this is news to me. How do you sanitize yeast nutrient? I've been tossing it in my wine all willy nilly and never had a problem.

Or are you pulling my leg? Haha

 

[RPh_Guy]

Why couldn't wild microbes live in the yeast nutrient especially if you haven't been careful about what gets in there?

Dissolve it in some steaming hot water before adding.

I imagine there may be other aspects of your process that could use sanitation improvement as well, but I can only know as much about your process as you share.

One time I saw a winemaking video where a guy "sterilized" his equipment. He had it just lying there on the counter and he put his hands all over the siphon tube and then started the siphon by sucking on the end on the tube with his mouth. Of course this was after he was scooping mold out of his wine with bare hands.

I have some experience in clean rooms, sterile compounding, and testing cultures in microbiologist labs ... So this stuff comes a little easier for me than most people.
Assume microbes are everywhere until you hit it with adequate heat or a good non-rinse sanitizer on a thoroughly clean non-porous surface.

 

[Habs]

What I wouldn't give to have you come and nitpick my method. I kick the kids out (no one even breathe on me), close the door, wash up, then let nothing that touches wine touch anything that wasn't sanitized. Usually I sanitize a large 7 gallon bucket and everything stays in there until use, and then it gets sanitized again for when it sits around.

Yes, it seems feasible that wild microbes would live in yeast nutrient, I would just be afraid that high temperatures would cook off the nutrient, or something else rendering it ineffective. I don't know enough about it to throw it in hot water with much confidence, and this is the first time I've ever heard mention of such a thing.

The guy in that video you just described probably cleans his toilet with his own toothbrush, yeesh.

 

[bernardsmith]

You are also inviting infection when you open a pack of yeast remove a little close the pack and put it back in your fridge. You opened the pack so now the bacteria in the air have access. The yeast is likely to be include a little nutrient so the microbes have a food source. The fridge is very moist and humid and is kept at a relatively HIGH temperature (not -80 C , but about 38 F so well above freezing). Fermenting and brewing ain't surgery so you don't need to sterilize your equipment and raw materials but you do want to sanitize things and you do want to avoid unnecessary introduction of bacteria and mold that you have not planned for.
On one other note, pitching a full pack of yeast is not the cause of hydrogen sulfide. Stress yeast produce H2S. And yeast are stressed for all kinds of reasons- temperature; lack of nutrient; poor rehydration protocol; excess CO2 (puts physical stress on the cells and increases the acidity of the solution), to mention just a few reasons.

 

[NeverDie]

Yes, it seems feasible that wild microbes would live in yeast nutrient, I would just be afraid that high temperatures would cook off the nutrient, or something else rendering it ineffective. I don't know enough about it to throw it in hot water with much confidence...

I share the same concern. Do we know that the extreme heat needed to kill, say, Brett won't damage the nutrients/vitamins that you're trying to feed to the yeast?

I think it would be safer (easier?) to just get a fresh batch of nutrients/vitamins from a totally different source and try that. If your infections suddenly stop, then you've ID'd the source of the problem.

 

[yourlastchance89]

I share the same concern. Do we know that the extreme heat needed to kill, say, Brett won't damage the nutrients/vitamins that you're trying to feed to the yeast?

I think it would be safer (easier?) to just get a fresh batch of nutrients/vitamins from a totally different source and try that. If your infections suddenly stop, then you've ID'd the source of the problem.

I think Brett can be killed with boiling temps.