What's been your game changer for LOB?

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Panderson1

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I struggled with about 30 kegs so far and always getting issues with my beer losing aroma and flavor fast. I recently thought I fixed everything by correcting my cold crashing methods but still haven't knailed it. My next move is to try the star san purge before closed transfer. Anything else I should research?
 
I struggled with about 30 kegs so far and always getting issues with my beer losing aroma and flavor fast. I recently thought I fixed everything by correcting my cold crashing methods but still haven't knailed it. My next move is to try the star san purge before closed transfer. Anything else I should research?

Hard to give any advice without knowing your current process.
 
I am interested in hearing more of this, because I don't do the purge suggested above, and I find that hop aroma drops off fast, even if the flavor is still there.
 
I am interested in hearing more of this, because I don't do the purge suggested above, and I find that hop aroma drops off fast, even if the flavor is still there.

My struggles exactly. It's frustrating as hell lol. A lot of work just isn't paying off. I'm talking hoppy beers fyi.
 
I was thinking more on the lines of.... maybe others that struggled with the oxygen issue, but a change they made seemed to help tremendously. Idk...

I went low oxygen throughout my whole system and process all at once. There are many parts to it and all work together and so it’s hard to just pick one and say it’s the most important.

There are people here willing to help you to improve your process. We just need to know what you are, or aren’t, doing.
 
I went low oxygen throughout my whole system and process all at once. There are many parts to it and all work together and so it’s hard to just pick one and say it’s the most important.

There are people here willing to help you to improve your process. We just need to know what you are, or aren’t, doing.

So what was the end result? Unbiased noticeable change? aroma lasts for weeks?
 
Now that I have switched to Anvil Foundry, have not been doing LOB anymore, though still use a few LOB tricks (BrewTan B being one). But as for kegs, I don't notice any changes in my kegs over time. I use a closed transfer system, so that no oxygen gets into kegs. I fill a clean keg with water and Saniclean (low foam StarSan), seal cover with CO2...then push the water/sanitizer out on gas...then transfer into keg from carboy under pressure. Between that, and the fact that BrewTan B is in the professional world, a shelf stabilizer that keeps beer fresh longer, I assume that is why my keg flavor lasts. I use BrewTan B more for the fact, that when used with whirlfloc also, it leaves amazingly clear wort which leads to clear beer.
 
Now that I have switched to Anvil Foundry, have not been doing LOB anymore, though still use a few LOB tricks (BrewTan B being one). But as for kegs, I don't notice any changes in my kegs over time. I use a closed transfer system, so that no oxygen gets into kegs. I fill a clean keg with water and Saniclean (low foam StarSan), seal cover with CO2...then push the water/sanitizer out on gas...then transfer into keg from carboy under pressure. Between that, and the fact that BrewTan B is in the professional world, a shelf stabilizer that keeps beer fresh longer, I assume that is why my keg flavor lasts. I use BrewTan B more for the fact, that when used with whirlfloc also, it leaves amazingly clear wort which leads to clear beer.
I would argue that you ARE continuing to use low oxygen brewing, at least on the cold side. BTB and purged kegs, plus closed transfers are all LOB.

As for hot side, yeast oxygen scavenging (YOS), BTB in the mash and boil, using a mash cap, and gentle boil are all easily achieved processes to help improve quality and stability.

Oxidation is a cumulative process that can't be removed once it's happened. The processes to prevent it are also cumulative. The more you mitigate, the better your beer will be and the longer the flavors will last.

In answer to the OP's question, I'm not sure that there's one 'single' LOB process that improves beer the most, since each acts to reduce oxidation. Every step contributes. In concert they all work together to mitigate the damage.

Brooo Brother
 
In answer to the OP's question, I'm not sure that there's one 'single' LOB process that improves beer the most, since each acts to reduce oxidation. Every step contributes. In concert they all work together to mitigate the damage.

It's a safe bet this is exactly the case.

I haven't really gotten into LOB (should check it out but haven't), but I did see and switch over to the closed loop transfer from fermenter to keg. I push water out of the keg w/ CO2, and try to purge my lines as well before the actual transfer. I am certain my hoppy beers last longer. I'd say where it might take 3 weeks before they went from great to simply "OK", primarily via loss of hop taste and aroma, they will now last more like 5 or 6 weeks - at the point which I have fried the keg anyhow.
 
It's a safe bet this is exactly the case.

I haven't really gotten into LOB (should check it out but haven't), but I did see and switch over to the closed loop transfer from fermenter to keg. I push water out of the keg w/ CO2, and try to purge my lines as well before the actual transfer. I am certain my hoppy beers last longer. I'd say where it might take 3 weeks before they went from great to simply "OK", primarily via loss of hop taste and aroma, they will now last more like 5 or 6 weeks - at the point which I have fried the keg anyhow.

True words^^^

An early 2021 tumble and assorted medical procedures resulted in an unplanned "dry" January this year. Just starting to ease back into the daily ritual of a 5 o'clock frosty, so the kegerator has sat a lonely vigil over a Cashmere Blonde ale and a Bell's Two Hearted clone on tap since mid-December. Both are still quite nice and flavorful, though the 2H is just beginning to show a slight decline in hop aroma. Both were brewed in late October 2020. Neither shows any sign of oxidation.

There's something to this whole LoDO business.

Brooo Brother
 
I struggled with about 30 kegs so far and always getting issues with my beer losing aroma and flavor fast. I recently thought I fixed everything by correcting my cold crashing methods but still haven't knailed it. My next move is to try the star san purge before closed transfer. Anything else I should research?
Conical, spunding, closed transfer. When I'm not in a hurry I even start serving directly from the fermenter. Zero cold side oxidation, even when dry-hopping thanks to my DIY hop-dropper. The difference is really an eye-opener.
 
If you want to try something that may have a significant influence such that you can see at least partially what LOB will do for you:

When I started, I did what I considered to be the easiest thing: preboil (and then cool to strike temp) the strike water; carefully put crushed grain in pot and then underlet; use a mash cap. I've attached a pic below showing how I did the underletting the first time; all I had to do was put the preboiled and cooled to strike temp water in my Igloo cooler mash tun, raise it up, and then run a tube down to the bottom of the kettle. BIAB is what I did, and it worked. So you don't need the crazy investment in equipment that some idiots do--which refers to me, of course. :)

That was it for me. Pretty simple to start. The flavors popped compared to what I'd done before, which is how I knew there was something to the LOB thing.

And since then, I've just tried to do more and more to limit oxygen.

There's a caveat here. The flavors popped so much that I had to step back and ask if that was what I wanted. I made a Pilsner using LOB techniques and it was like a punch in the mouth of Pils malt flavor. Some of my friends really liked it; I was on the fence. But there was no question as to the effect of LOB on the result.

I've since switched to electric brewing, a RIMS system for controlling mash temp, trying to purge lines of air (with CO2) prior to moving wort around, things like that. I've had to adjust recipes to account for the increase in flavor that results.

underlet.jpg
 
If you want to try something that may have a significant influence such that you can see at least partially what LOB will do for you:

When I started, I did what I considered to be the easiest thing: preboil (and then cool to strike temp) the strike water; carefully put crushed grain in pot and then underlet; use a mash cap. I've attached a pic below showing how I did the underletting the first time; all I had to do was put the preboiled and cooled to strike temp water in my Igloo cooler mash tun, raise it up, and then run a tube down to the bottom of the kettle. BIAB is what I did, and it worked. So you don't need the crazy investment in equipment that some idiots do--which refers to me, of course. :)

That was it for me. Pretty simple to start. The flavors popped compared to what I'd done before, which is how I knew there was something to the LOB thing.

And since then, I've just tried to do more and more to limit oxygen.

There's a caveat here. The flavors popped so much that I had to step back and ask if that was what I wanted. I made a Pilsner using LOB techniques and it was like a punch in the mouth of Pils malt flavor. Some of my friends really liked it; I was on the fence. But there was no question as to the effect of LOB on the result.

I've since switched to electric brewing, a RIMS system for controlling mash temp, trying to purge lines of air (with CO2) prior to moving wort around, things like that. I've had to adjust recipes to account for the increase in flavor that results.

View attachment 722689

Yeast-based water deoxygenation is probably easier than pre-boiling though, and depending on the cooling process, possibly even more effective.
 
Yeast-based water deoxygenation is probably easier than pre-boiling though, and depending on the cooling process, possibly even more effective.

It may well be....but the preboil is about as foolproof as there is, which is why I did it that way.

The more variables you have, the more process steps you have, the more likely SOMETHING will go wrong. At least when starting this LOB thing, simpler, IMO, is better.
 
It may well be....but the preboil is about as foolproof as there is, which is why I did it that way.

The more variables you have, the more process steps you have, the more likely SOMETHING will go wrong. At least when starting this LOB thing, simpler, IMO, is better.
Boiling is easy, cooling without reintroducing oxygen can be less easy, depending on process, equipment, antioxidants...
 
So far I've found that eliminating oxygen on the cold side was an immediate and noticeable improvement. At minimum that's using a fermenter that is less oxygen permeable than an HDPE bucket with a questionable lid seal. You need something that can take a CO2 input even if it's only 1psi capable and it has to have a drain spigot. If your fermenter can handle 2-3psi then you can rig the lid with a floating diptube or a racking cane through a grommet. Fill the keg with starsan and push it out with CO2. Hook your fermenter to the keg's beer out post. Either vent the PRV on the keg during the transfer or put a grey QD on the gas post and run the hose into a bucket filled with starsan.
 
So far I've found that eliminating oxygen on the cold side was an immediate and noticeable improvement. At minimum that's using a fermenter that is less oxygen permeable than an HDPE bucket with a questionable lid seal. You need something that can take a CO2 input even if it's only 1psi capable and it has to have a drain spigot. If your fermenter can handle 2-3psi then you can rig the lid with a floating diptube or a racking cane through a grommet. Fill the keg with starsan and push it out with CO2. Hook your fermenter to the keg's beer out post. Either vent the PRV on the keg during the transfer or put a grey QD on the gas post and run the hose into a bucket filled with starsan.

Well put! I guess I never stopped to think that the single most significant step I took to limiting O2 incursion was purchasing a stainless steel fermenter.

In reality that was the foundational event. Everything else has been incremental (but cumulative) improvement, none of which would have likely happened without first getting out of plastic and into stainless.

Brew Bucket first, conical next, finally a unitank. Yep. That's what made LoDO 'doable' for me. Any advantage gained against oxidation on the hotside can be lost without solid processes on the cold side. That starts with a stainless fermenter.

Brooo Brother
 
So, since we are talking about it, how does aerating the wort before pitching yeast work out? Or is it OK to introduce the oxygen for that bit of time? Do you skip that step and hope for the best?

I focus myself on -after- fermentation but am seeing that before fermentation it can be a thing as well. Curious how this step is dealt with.
 
Brew Bucket first, conical next, finally a unitank. Yep. That's what made LoDO 'doable' for me. Any advantage gained against oxidation on the hotside can be lost without solid processes on the cold side. That starts with a stainless fermenter.

I went to Unitanks but backed out after about a year. I wasn't a fan of a glycol system and the cleaning overhead of the tanks. I'm still low O2, just using the same kind of techniques in a similarly sealable fermenter.

1616203972633.png
 
Pitch first, then aerate. The yeast will scrub O2 crazy fast so little damage to the wort...

Cheers!
^^^This^^^

Or use dry yeast without aeration.

I prefer liquid yeast, and use a starter pitched through one of Jaybird's yeast brinks. It gets pitched under CO2 positive pressure. It's a lot more cumbersome than just dumping a liter of starter, but it is oxygen free. Once the yeast is in, I oxygenate thru a TC mounted carb stone into the closed fermenter.

Once the O2 is in there, the active yeast pitch starts consuming it almost immediately. IIRC it's all gone in less than an hour, especially if the yeast pitch is at or near high krausen.

Brooo Brother
 
^^^This^^^

Or use dry yeast without aeration.

I prefer liquid yeast, and use a starter pitched through one of Jaybird's yeast brinks. It gets pitched under CO2 positive pressure. It's a lot more cumbersome than just dumping a liter of starter, but it is oxygen free. Once the yeast is in, I oxygenate thru a TC mounted carb stone into the closed fermenter.

Once the O2 is in there, the active yeast pitch starts consuming it almost immediately. IIRC it's all gone in less than an hour, especially if the yeast pitch is at or near high krausen.

Brooo Brother


There's something I'm not following here.

In order to minimize oxygen exposure you're avoiding pitching from a port in conical lid, and then you immediately oxygenate?

I'm careful not to expose my beer to oxygen once fermentation has begun, but hadn't considered limiting exposure of the chilled wort.

What am I not understanding? Is the conical CO2 purged before you pitch, so you don't want to open it up? I'm always looking for ways to make my beer another notch better, and have learned a lot from this forum.
 
I went to Unitanks but backed out after about a year. I wasn't a fan of a glycol system and the cleaning overhead of the tanks. I'm still low O2, just using the same kind of techniques in a similarly sealable fermenter.

View attachment 722807
I didn't mean to imply that the only way to low oxygen brewing is through stainless steel 'only', but in my case it was certainly the catalyst. I've still got a Fermonster like the one in the picture. Before going stainless with a Brew Bucket, I used the Fermonster with a Brew Jacket immersion rod, and felt like I was making decent beer. Good, but not great. Decidedly not LoDO.

I was still doing secondary fermentations, transferring with a siphon rod into glass carboys, then into kegs. All open transfers. I had a rash of infections and decided stainless steel with gravity transfers might help. $300 worth of upgrades later I figured out that oxidation in conjunction with infection was a likely problem as well. A conical fermenter would streamline the process.

Slowly, incrementally, I got involved in LoDO processes. Soon I was pricing unitanks, and later glycol chilling. Competition scores were heading upward as were ribbons. I was brewing more and enjoying it more. But like you, I discovered that the "cleaning overhead" had increased significantly. But, I'm retired, and if I wasn't cleaning brew gear my wife would have me cleaning something else. Easy choice!

This hobby, like anything else in life, pays you back in proportion to what you put in. I've been "putting in" for the last several years much more than I ever put "in" since I first brewed more than 35 years ago. On balance it's been more than worth it.

Brooo Brother
 
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if you ask me although i am not a hop head; this is a dead end thread. Heavy hopped beer was introduced for longer storage time in barrel and thus oxygen permeation. if a person wants to brew a beer it will need oxygen for fermentation, after that the dry hopping happens; this would be the only time that excess oxygen could be introduced. do it in a closed system may make fresh hop beer last a little longer but the excess in process time and equipment to me seems a lot to deal with.

how about dry hop your glass when a pint is poured. (ok that was sarcasm) i am more of a traditional beer person.
 
There's something I'm not following here.

In order to minimize oxygen exposure you're avoiding pitching from a port in conical lid, and then you immediately oxygenate?

I'm careful not to expose my beer to oxygen once fermentation has begun, but hadn't considered limiting exposure of the chilled wort.

What am I not understanding? Is the conical CO2 purged before you pitch, so you don't want to open it up? I'm always looking for ways to make my beer another notch better, and have learned a lot from this forum.

For a brief while I would try to mitigate O2 in the empty fermenter before filling with wort. I used a spray bottle with NaMeta and water solution to mist the inside, then seal up the fermenter during the time I actually brewed. My thought was that the NaMeta would sequester gaseous O2 and then get displaced by the wort when I filled the fermenter from the bottom and be forced out the blow-off line. But I never knew if this was actually doing anything.

When I started adding antioxidants to the late boil, I stopped pre-treating the fermenter and would just do a closed transfer into the sealed but vented vessel. My thinking is that the antioxidants in the wort now have enough "carryover" protection until the pitched yeast starts using the dissolved oxygen in the wort from the oxygenation stone.

So yes, there is air (thus O2) in the empty fermenter. Much of that gets displaced while filling. When the wort in the fermenter gets oxygenated with a 'stone' attached to an oxygen bottle, the yeast pitched into the wort use that O2 to propagate fermentation, and quickly consume virtually all of it thus preventing O2 from oxidizing the beer.

As counterintuitive as it sounds, you want to eliminate as much O2 and D.O. in the container and the liquid as possible. Then as soon as the wort gets into the fermenter you want to get the yeast pitched as oxygen-free as you can. As soon as that is accomplished you then flood the wort with....wait for it....OXYGEN!

Crazy? Not really. You need oxygen to help get propagation started but not more oxygen than the yeast can consume relatively quickly to avoid oxidizing the fermenting beer. In this process, gaseous oxygen in the headspace of the fermenter is your beer's enemy. The dissolved oxygen (D.O.) in the wort is your friend.

Brooo Brother
 
For a brief while I would try to mitigate O2 in the empty fermenter before filling with wort. I used a spray bottle with NaMeta and water solution to mist the inside, then seal up the fermenter during the time I actually brewed. My thought was that the NaMeta would sequester gaseous O2 and then get displaced by the wort when I filled the fermenter from the bottom and be forced out the blow-off line. But I never knew if this was actually doing anything.

When I started adding antioxidants to the late boil, I stopped pre-treating the fermenter and would just do a closed transfer into the sealed but vented vessel. My thinking is that the antioxidants in the wort now have enough "carryover" protection until the pitched yeast starts using the dissolved oxygen in the wort from the oxygenation stone.

So yes, there is air (thus O2) in the empty fermenter. Much of that gets displaced while filling. When the wort in the fermenter gets oxygenated with a 'stone' attached to an oxygen bottle, the yeast pitched into the wort use that O2 to propagate fermentation, and quickly consume virtually all of it thus preventing O2 from oxidizing the beer.

As counterintuitive as it sounds, you want to eliminate as much O2 and D.O. in the container and the liquid as possible. Then as soon as the wort gets into the fermenter you want to get the yeast pitched as oxygen-free as you can. As soon as that is accomplished you then flood the wort with....wait for it....OXYGEN!

Crazy? Not really. You need oxygen to help get propagation started but not more oxygen than the yeast can consume relatively quickly to avoid oxidizing the fermenting beer. In this process, gaseous oxygen in the headspace of the fermenter is your beer's enemy. The dissolved oxygen (D.O.) in the wort is your friend.

Brooo Brother
OK, I can see I need to read up on anti-oxidants. Thanks for the detailed
response.
 
OK, I can see I need to read up on anti-oxidants. Thanks for the detailed
response.
There're some threads on this forum talking about "Trifecta" which is a home made concoction of NaMeta, ascorbic acid and a plant-based product marketed by Wyeast called BrewTan B. It's a very effective antioxidant for reducing dissolved oxygen in the wort during the mash and in the late boil. The German Low Oxygen brewers forum has some very impressive data about the efficacy of these antioxidants.

Brooo Brother
 
Why is Brewtan B still so hard to find?

None of my frequently used online suppliers carry it.... When I've looked for it in LHBS owners will say they have never heard of it.
 
if you ask me although i am not a hop head; this is a dead end thread. Heavy hopped beer was introduced for longer storage time in barrel and thus oxygen permeation. if a person wants to brew a beer it will need oxygen for fermentation, after that the dry hopping happens; this would be the only time that excess oxygen could be introduced. do it in a closed system may make fresh hop beer last a little longer but the excess in process time and equipment to me seems a lot to deal with.

how about dry hop your glass when a pint is poured. (ok that was sarcasm) i am more of a traditional beer person.

Hops were used for their antimicrobial activity though, it has nothing to do with oxygen. Besides, I don't see the point of using obsolete processes as a reference: we know better now.

Anyway, limiting oxidation on the cold and hot side is not just to keep your beer fresh longer, but to preserve flavors that are otherwise lost from the very beginning.

For a brief while I would try to mitigate O2 in the empty fermenter before filling with wort. I used a spray bottle with NaMeta and water solution to mist the inside, then seal up the fermenter during the time I actually brewed. My thought was that the NaMeta would sequester gaseous O2 and then get displaced by the wort when I filled the fermenter from the bottom and be forced out the blow-off line. But I never knew if this was actually doing anything.

When I started adding antioxidants to the late boil, I stopped pre-treating the fermenter and would just do a closed transfer into the sealed but vented vessel. My thinking is that the antioxidants in the wort now have enough "carryover" protection until the pitched yeast starts using the dissolved oxygen in the wort from the oxygenation stone.

So yes, there is air (thus O2) in the empty fermenter. Much of that gets displaced while filling. When the wort in the fermenter gets oxygenated with a 'stone' attached to an oxygen bottle, the yeast pitched into the wort use that O2 to propagate fermentation, and quickly consume virtually all of it thus preventing O2 from oxidizing the beer.

As counterintuitive as it sounds, you want to eliminate as much O2 and D.O. in the container and the liquid as possible. Then as soon as the wort gets into the fermenter you want to get the yeast pitched as oxygen-free as you can. As soon as that is accomplished you then flood the wort with....wait for it....OXYGEN!

Crazy? Not really. You need oxygen to help get propagation started but not more oxygen than the yeast can consume relatively quickly to avoid oxidizing the fermenting beer. In this process, gaseous oxygen in the headspace of the fermenter is your beer's enemy. The dissolved oxygen (D.O.) in the wort is your friend.

Brooo Brother

Anecdotal, but someone reported issues pitching yeast in wort with sulfites, so pitching before oxygenating may be counter-productive here. But I guess the best way is to try both on your system and process (pitching first vs oxygenating first) and see how lag time and hydrogen sulfide (if any) change.
 
Why is Brewtan B still so hard to find?

None of my frequently used online suppliers carry it.... When I've looked for it in LHBS owners will say they have never heard of it.

BrewTan B is produced and sold in bulk by Wyeast. You can find a description of it on their website. Obviously we home brewers don't need 50# of the stuff. I found it subdivided and sold in 2 oz packets on the Great Fermentations website for a couple of bucks I think.

I use less than 1 gram of it in a typical 7~8 gallon mash and a bit less than that added 5 minutes before Whirlfloc and knock out during the boil. After chilling and whirlpooling the wort is about as clear as fined beer, with most of the trub settled in the BV. That's of course in addition to the antioxidant protection I seeking, but "clearly" (pun intended) is a welcome side benefit.

Brooo Brother
 
I add a tsp of brewtan B in 18 gallons with 10 min left in the boil. Then add my whirlfloc with 5 min left. I started using it back when I was using a copper IC but used 2 tsp then.

I can always find it when I google for it...but it's something like whirlfloc or gypsum that I will throw in my cart when I am buying other things. I'm wondering why @Bobby_M doesn't carry it or Farmhouse or YVH or Morebeer or Northern Brewer....or heck even Amazon.
 
Anecdotal, but someone reported issues pitching yeast in wort with sulfites, so pitching before oxygenating may be counter-productive here. But I guess the best way is to try both on your system and process (pitching first vs oxygenating first) and see how lag time and hydrogen sulfide (if any) change.

You know, that's interesting. I've had the feeling for a while that my lag times between pitch and visual signs of fermentation were increasing. I wrote it off as cooler ambient temperatures or pitching at below optimum fermentation temperature for the yeast and allowing it to free rise to optimum temperature over 8~10 hours.

I may try increasing the time of forced oxygenation after pitch to see if that reduces lag time. If the sulfites are the root cause, the good news is that they are in fact providing antioxidant protection from the late boil into the fermenter (my goal). Now I need to determine if I can compensate with either less NaMeta in the boil or more O2 after the yeast pitch.

Thanks for the heads-up.
 
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if you ask me although i am not a hop head; this is a dead end thread. Heavy hopped beer was introduced for longer storage time in barrel and thus oxygen permeation. if a person wants to brew a beer it will need oxygen for fermentation, after that the dry hopping happens; this would be the only time that excess oxygen could be introduced. do it in a closed system may make fresh hop beer last a little longer but the excess in process time and equipment to me seems a lot to deal with.

how about dry hop your glass when a pint is poured. (ok that was sarcasm) i am more of a traditional beer person.

If by traditional, you mean oxidized beer, then OK. Dry hopping is not the only time oxygen might be introduced. That would be a permeable fermenter vessel. A bad lid seal. Open transfer to a bottling bucket or keg. All of them will hurt the beer and it's definitely not just hoppy beers that suffer.
 
I'm a fan of venting fermentation CO2 through empty serving keg, during fermentation, to purge the keg into which the closed transferred beer is ultimately put.
 
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