What's a good blending strategy?

[Brewosaurusrex]

Considering the immense time investment of lambic or geueze, I want to step up my batch size from 5gal to 17gal, the logic being that it yields more beer per time for the same ratio of ingredients per final product.

Additionally, I figure the more sour I can get my long-term batch, the less of it I will need to use up when blending with younger beer. I know that I much prefer the character of lactic acid to acetic acid, which I find harsh.

A few main questions:

1. How can I get my large batch of lambic as sour as possible without producing an unpalatable amount of vinegar?
2. How long would it reasonably take to reach its approximate sour "limit"?
3. Approximately what ratio would I need to produce a "balanced" sour (think Rodenbach or Oude Geuze) when blending my aged super-sour with a young non-sour like a saison or golden ale?

Thanks!

 

[Coff]

1. Turbid mash (or mash high like 158) for some dextrins, keep the hopping very very low >10 IBUs pitch a nice blend like ECY Bugfarm and continue to add commercial dregs over the aging process. The bugs should take care of the rest.

2. It depends, every fermentation is different, and thats even more evident when talking about aging a beer with various bugs. Brew it and forget about it for 6-12 months then taste and make the decision based on your palate.

3. Rodenbach (Flanders) and Gueuze are entirely different types of beers, so one blanket answer will not suffice. But in both cases the answer is "it depends" and it depends on a lot of things. You will have to taste each component of the potential blend and then use the flavors in each to compile a blend to your tastes. The is no rule book for blending, its a skill and it takes trial and error to get right. One thing a seasoned blender shared with me thats helped me is to blend for low funk as it tends to increase in the bottles over time.

Good luck.

 

[dougdecinces]

A good way to get acid is to pitch your yeast in a low-oxygen wort. This gives the lacto and pedio a head start before sacch and brett can start working. I think oxygen exposure is not necessary and may be detrimental. I have now begun doing my sours entirely in carboys and Better Bottles and have had good results. Oxygen will produce acetic acid, which is fine in Flanderses, but is not desirable in a lambic. Plus oxygen may lead to the development of ethyl acetate, which is very bad.

As for blending, I started a long lambic project this winter. I plan on brewing every 6-9 months and then blending. I would say there is no hard and fast rule on blending. You just need to blend to taste. I have multiple 1, 3, 5, and 6 gallon carboys. This way I don't have to worry about blending in equal amounts every time. I can just move the lambics around as need be.

 

[Coff]

No o2 is a good tip for more acid production, I usually under pitch as well to create more esters for the Brett to work on over time.

 

[sweetcell]

Additionally, I figure the more sour I can get my long-term batch, the less of it I will need to use up when blending with younger beer.

is the only thing you want to get some the aged portion sourness? i have no experience mixing lambic, but i'm wondering if having a super-sour old portion, thus needing less in the mix, will result in a less complex/interesting beer.

Approximately what ratio would I need to produce a "balanced" sour (think Rodenbach or Oude Geuze) when blending my aged super-sour with a young non-sour like a saison or golden ale?

impossible to know without knowing how sour the old portion is, what you're balancing it against (how dry is that saison or golden?), and what you want the final beer to taste like (there is a good range between rodenbach and oude gueuze.... BTW, who's oude gueuze?).

this approach of "less old & more young" could create a problem for carbonation. the young beer provides sugars for carbonation. adding a lot of young beer could result in over-carbonation if you bottle it right away. you might need to wait for some or all of those sugars are consumed...

 

[dantheman13]

I've had success getting very sour beers within months by pitching on old sour yeast cakes. I don't think this is as mysterious as it might sound though. As others have mentioned, giving the bacteria access to the simple sugars before the brewer's yeast gets to it works well for producing more acidity. I don't aerate, and I leave the wort on the sour yeast culture for 3-4 days at about 70-75 F before pitching brewer's yeast. I also don't make a starter. I've read that bacteria growth produces a lot of lactic acid, and I would rather that happen in the fermenter than in a starter.

I believe you can accomplish something similar using bacteria cultures from WL/WY. I've only done this once with a Berliner Weisse and using the WL L. delbruekii, but I plan on trying it again soon with the Wyeast L. brevis and 100% B. trois. Again without a start this beer came out perfectly sour for the Berliner Weisse style.

For my solera beer, I've been topping up with wort and not pitching fresh yeast. The Brett performs a primary fermentation that starts after 7 days, and the resulting beer is thin and very sour. I've been using this for blending. The average age of the solera is 2+ years old. I find that when blending with another younger sour I don't need to use much to retain the complex fruit flavors from the Brett, but only if the younger beer is also sour. What is really being carried over by the old beer I think is not the lactic acid, but the fruity esters from the Brett.

I still have a couple of years to go before I can verify that this process is working the way that I think it is, so take it for what you will!