What no one wants to say

[Dland]

Ok, but it just cost me $55 bucks to brew and Italian Pils and this is not enough for my LHBS to make a decent cut, apparently.

That sounds about right, $55 is not so bad for 10 gallons of beer, that's about 70 cents a pint.

 

[mashdar]

There was a time when, if I wanted a sack of malt I'd order five 10lb bags from MoreBeer and get free shipping. I don't know if that's still a viable option, as I haven't ordered from them in quite a while.

There's a big discontinuity in shipping when the package is too heavy for one person to "safely" lift. I imagine morebeer breaks it into two packages at some point. Shipping two 30lb boxes might be cheaper than shipping one 50lb box.

I'm not sure, but I also suspect simultaneous shipping of two packages costs less than twice the cost of shipping one. (It certainly saves the shipper most of the last mile on the second package.)

 

[sibelman]

What's it all about?

Nothing controversial in noting that, no, we don't regulate the size of beer portions in the U.S. Our so-called pint glasses can't hold a pint even if filled to the rim with no foam. Most places don't explicitly call it a "pint," so there's no actual misrepresentation.

When we Americans plan visits to Europe, we're told that restaurant staff actually get paid a living wage and have health benefits, so American tipping traditions don't apply. Here, tips are a crucial part of restaurant workers' compensation. And the "recommended" amount has risen lately. A few restaurants have bucked the trend, raising prices, providing health insurance for workers, and sometimes telling customers not to tip.

In a debate forum, one could argue for or against different arrangements. But the above is simple information with no value judgment.

À votre santé. Cheers!

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

And with regard to US-based point-of-sale systems, in my region of the USA, there are two (maybe more) providers each with a very different experience. And the system from each of those providers POS systems can also be customized in meaningful ways. Almost always, the main screen has a custom tip option and an easy way to enter the amount that I wish to tip. And if it doesn't, it will be a year or two before I return.

 

[BrewZer]

Look in your local area for maltsters that sell to the public. I've got one about an hour away who sells 50 lbs of Vienna for $50. My LHBS sells 50 lbs for $79.

Realize, of course, that taking sales away from your LHBS (if you have one) makes their demise more likely. So it might be worth it to pay more up front just to have the broad availability a LHBS provides.

 

[FloppyKnockers]

Tip or no tip, I just wish we can have a standard POS system. I hate trying to pay and it feels like I'm playing this all over again.

 

[user 348755]

That sounds about right, $55 is not so bad for 10 gallons of beer, that's about 70 cents a pint.

That was for 5 gallons and no yeast. Granted there's about 7oz of hops but still.

 

[bwible]

My experience absolutely coincides with OP. I’m in SE PA and I always said we’re pretty spoiled here, its been a great area for beer. But we’ve had at least 3 local micros go under here in just the last 8 or 9 months. One of those was owned by my neighbor and friend who lives directly across the street from me. They started here in our town and ran their brewery here for 5 years before they moved into a bigger place in the next town over - 3 months before covid. After they made it through that everybody thought they would be around. I went to their last night they were open. It was pretty sad and people were crying.

There are really 2 homebrew stores in my area. Either is an hour and a half drive in different directions. The one store was just bought from the original owner by his employees because he wanted out. There is a guy closer, like OP originally posted, who had to close his store and kind of operates on the side out of space in a building thats being renovated. He doesn’t keep any regular hours and doesn’t have much in the way of inventory. He mostly does pallet orders when we all want sacks of grain or something and he can get enough of an order. I buy the majorty of my stuff mail order unless I really need to make that hour and a half drive for yeast in hot weather or a sack or something. It really sucks having no place to grab last minute yeast or grains you thought you had.

Weed is not legal in PA. Our young relatives all have medical mj cards. Its a joke, like when doctors used to write prescriptions for whiskey during prohibition. Its not legal but anybody can get it from the “right” doctor. The ones who drink bring captain morgan or hard iced tea at the holidays. None of them drink beer, as I’m reminded every year when planning my holiday brews.

Our club hasn’t really lost people. But we’re all older. Most north of 50, many north of 60. We’re not attracting any new members. We used to run a competition that drew 300+ entries, haven’t done it since covid. There’s a British style pub not far in Lititz used to run a cask ale festival every year. They haven’t done one since covid.

 

[bwible]

A thought experiment on where the added costs are coming from:

1. Get the price for a 50# bag of Briess Brewers malt at Northern Brewer, MoreBeer, and RiteBrew. Then add the shipping cost. Then estimate the distance the bag had to travel to get to the 'store' and then to your location.
2. Compare MoreBeer's prices / free shipping rate to other regional suppliers that also offer free shipping (but at a higher threshold).

Do lower free shipping thresholds and higher shipping costs require higher product prices?

These places don’t ship 50 or 55lb sacks, do they? I would never expect them to. Geez, the price of shipping that would have to wipe out any profit. And I’m sure there’s going to be a REALLY unhappy mailman, fedex, or UPS guy. The post office has restrictions, I don’t even think they’d take it.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

These places don’t ship 50 or 55lb sacks, do they?

The three I listed currently offer 50#/55# bags. It may be that that they split the bag to avoid price surcharges. On occasion, I've seen a "jump" in shipping costs when crossing a boundary - but that boundary seems to vary over time.

Geez, the price of shipping that would have to wipe out any profit

RiteBeer prices shipping separately. Northern Brewer and MoreBeer offer free shipping but often exclude some items (like full bags of malt) from that offer.

eta: I did find an online store that appears to use flat rate shipping for 50#/55# bags of malt. The 50# malt price is higher than most.

 

[user 348755]

My experience absolutely coincides with OP. I’m in SE PA and I always said we’re pretty spoiled here, its been a great area for beer. But we’ve had at least 3 local micros go under here in just the last 8 or 9 months. One of those was owned by my neighbor and friend who lives directly across the street from me. They started here in our town and ran their brewery here for 5 years before they moved into a bigger place in the next town over - 3 months before covid. After they made it through that everybody thought they would be around. I went to their last night they were open. It was pretty sad and people were crying.

There are really 2 homebrew stores in my area. Either is an hour and a half drive in different directions. The one store was just bought from the original owner by his employees because he wanted out. There is a guy closer, like OP originally posted, who had to close his store and kind of operates on the side out of space in a building thats being renovated. He doesn’t keep any regular hours and doesn’t have much in the way of inventory. He mostly does pallet orders when we all want sacks of grain or something and he can get enough of an order. I buy the majorty of my stuff mail order unless I really need to make that hour and a half drive for yeast in hot weather or a sack or something. It really sucks having no place to grab last minute yeast or grains you thought you had.

Weed is not legal in PA. Our young relatives all have medical mj cards. Its a joke, like when doctors used to write prescriptions for whiskey during prohibition. Its not legal but anybody can get it from the “right” doctor. The ones who drink bring captain morgan or hard iced tea at the holidays. None of them drink beer, as I’m reminded every year when planning my holiday brews.

Our club hasn’t really lost people. But we’re all older. Most north of 50, many north of 60. We’re not attracting any new members. We used to run a competition that drew 300+ entries, haven’t done it since covid. There’s a British style pub not far in Lititz used to run a cask ale festival every year. They haven’t done one since covid.

This is what I'm getting at. I got some flack for saying "what nobody wants to say" and plenty of stats to prove I'm wrong, but this is exactly what I'm driving at. It's not necessarily that no one says it, but when it is discussed, these stats are meted out and any lived experience is dismissed as anecdotal. But this is not a science experiment. My anecdotal experience is 100% valid in that local breweries are dying and it's actually harder to find a decent HBS than it was 20 years ago. Some might argue that what I'm seeing isn't real or that I used the wrong language but in the end it does seem that what we understood and the "homebrew industry" (local availability) is definitely dying and craft beer (made by smaller local breweries) is in a major decline. I suppose I should have weighed my words more carefully but in this is what I'm seeing and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

 

[Saunassa]

At one time the only way to get a decent beer with flavor and especially a dark one was to brew your own. Now with thousands of breweries the variety is there so why brew. A brewery with a nice clean kolsch or brown ale, yum I will take another pint please. With a brewery every half mile you are going to have the ones with blah taproom or mediocre beers close.
Could it be that the boomers and Gen X have money to spend on good beer and cocktails? Versus the young people that have $8 and can get a liter bottle of Phillips flavored vodka and get hammered?

 

[An Ankoù]

Nothing controversial in noting that, no, we don't regulate the size of beer portions in the U.S. Our so-called pint glasses can't hold a pint even if filled to the rim with no foam. Most places don't explicitly call it a "pint," so there's no actual misrepresentation.

When we Americans plan visits to Europe, we're told that restaurant staff actually get paid a living wage and have health benefits, so American tipping traditions don't apply. Here, tips are a crucial part of restaurant workers' compensation. And the "recommended" amount has risen lately. A few restaurants have bucked the trend, raising prices, providing health insurance for workers, and sometimes telling customers not to tip.

In a debate forum, one could argue for or against different arrangements. But the above is simple information with no value judgment.

À votre santé. Cheers!

Thank you.
It's fascinating to see how different cultures are, well, different. Easy to say an employee should be paid a living wage, but if a youngster signs up for what the punter will give him/her, then I guess that's cool but different. I think all the rest has been said, about whether the server gets all the tip, or why the expected amount of the gratuity is prescribed, but exploitation is universal; it;s just the way it rears it;s head that can be unexpected.
Thank you all. I was baffled, but I think I'm beginning to understand.
Yec'hed mad
as we say in sunny Brittany.

 

[Snuffy]

I buy kits. I don't reuse yeast. I crush my own grain. That may sound like the method of a lightweight, but the way I figure it, buying in smaller quantities, the HBS gets more per lb of grain, no labor spent grinding and my ingredients are as fresh as I can keep them.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

 

[Dland]

That was for 5 gallons and no yeast. Granted there's about 7oz of hops but stil

I guess I spend less on hops, but a 10 gal batch of lager with 20# imported Weyerman pils costs me $13 x 4 for 5# bags delivered from moorbeer, plus two or three oz of pellet hops bought by the pound qty, 2 whirlfloc & decent water from my well gets me to around $60. If I'm brewing with Briess or Rahr, which I often do, it is even less. I usually run a pitch of yeast for several batches consecutive. Right now I'm running US-05 which only needed 1 pkt for the initail pitch. With lager the $ most would be 2 pkts S-189s, which I try to run for a while since it is so spendy.

I've gave up on liquid yeast a long time ago due to shipping disapointments,

By the way, regarding of this general conversation, if there were any local brew supply, I would pay more to keep them around, but there is none anywhere near, travel time that is, on this freggin island.

 

[bwible]

Now go price sixtels at Total Wine or wherever. Last time I checked, a sixtel of Coors light was about $60 here and they go up from there for anything better or imported. I saw some beers that were $90 for a sixtel of like Bells or something like that. Cases of cans or bottles is one tier. Then kegs are another price level. Its nice to be able to brew and have draft beer in kegs. I don’t know if I could keep even a 3 tap kegerator buying sixtels at commercial prices.

Budweiser $57.99
Bud Light $61.99
Ultra $65.99
Landshark $69.98
Dos Equis $71.99
Sierra Nevada Pale Ale $79.99
Blue Moon $82.99
Sam Adams Boston Lager $84.99
Victory Hop Devil $86.99
Oskar Blues Dales Pale Ale $87.99
Troegs Perpetual $93.99
Dogfish 60 minute $109.99
Guinness $109.99

A few of these are out of stock. And then of course I wouldn’t be able to use quick disconnects, I’d have to learn how to use a sankey coupler.

 

[Zadkiel]

I'm in the UK, so none of this is relevant to you US folks, and I only started brewing Jan this year, so I don't know anything about any long term trends, but here's what I've noticed in London since starting this year.

Physical brick&mortar stores, at least in London, are WAY under-represented compared to what I expected. When I started brewing I looked for any LHBS near me, and found that there was none in the entire city of 9 million pop. There's a few places you can get some supplies from, a few craft beer bars that have a small section of supplies, and a few breweries with some selections too, but no actual dedicated stores, or anywhere with a good range and good prices. I went to one of the craft bar options near me and found it crazily overpriced, I'd been looking at getting a bottle drainer and seen my preferred online retailer selling one that looked fine for £13, in the shop the exact same drainer was £30, and the same doubling or more was across a lot of what they had, but not all, I did pick up a mangrove jacks extract pack for only about £1-2 more than online price, which was fine because then I wasn't paying (or waiting) for delivery, but my one attempt to find a LHBS just made me decide I was sticking to online only unless it was an emergency.

As to popularity, I don't know much, other than when I started posting on the UK homebrew forums, I had not one but 2 different people reach out to me within hours practically begging me to come join their clubs.

I just attributed both to Covid honestly, Covid shut down a lot of shops, and something that's niche to start with is going to struggle more. We had a surge in homebrew popularity during covid but at the same time couldn't shop in physical stores, so I just assumed online grew and physical stores died. Same thing with clubs, I mean, I have absolutely no frame of reference as I've never been to one, but I do know my own habits changed post-covid, my work changed to being 90% WFH and I just don't have a motivation to leave the house any more - I've dropped out of other social groups as a result, and I'm pretty sure if I had been in a club pre-covid that I probably wouldn't go there now.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Physical brick&mortar stores, at least in London, are WAY under-represented compared to what I expected.

Physical stores in urban locations often have high rental/leasing costs. In that environment products / services probably need to be higher volume and/or higher profit items. Home brewing supplies is likely neither.

The same applies to on-line home brew supply web sites. For those in the USA, look at the location (city/state, not just city) of stores that have gone out of business recently, stores that have moved (before and after), and stores that are still in business.

 

[Snuffy]

I'm in the UK, so none of this is relevant to you US folks, and I only started brewing Jan this year, so I don't know anything about any long term trends, but here's what I've noticed in London since starting this year.

I think your experience may be more universal than you believe. The only long term LHBS in my area closed a year or so ago. Online is pretty much the only option other than picking up stuff while on the road somewhere with a store. Prices have gone nuts. Covid took the fun out of a lot of things.

 

[bwible]

I just assumed online grew and physical stores died. Same thing with clubs, I mean, I have absolutely no frame of reference as I've never been to one, but I do know my own habits changed post-covid, my work changed to being 90% WFH and I just don't have a motivation to leave the house any more - I've dropped out of other social groups as a result, and I'm pretty sure if I had been in a club pre-covid that I probably wouldn't go there now.

I belong to a long standing club in our area that has been around for 35+ years. Most clubs started out with a homebrew shop affiliation, holding meetings at the store once a month. The store the club started at went away around 1997 or 1998. I was with this club off and on in the early 2000s. Mostly due to location. Then I moved and I started going regularly again around 2014 or 2015.

The club stayed together all these years meeting at members’ homes and then local brewpubs. During covid we met virtually once a month using zoom meetings. Members did presentations on different topics and we talked about our beers. The meetings were recorded and available for a time for those who didn’t make the meeting. We arranged bottle swaps by porch pickup. When the restrictions lifted we were happy to go back to meeting at brewpubs again. We were meeting at 4 different places, for 3 months each. Two of the places we used to meet at went out of business in 2024 so we went back to meeting at members’ homes again for 6 months this year. For the end of the year and our Christmas party we’ll be back to meeting at one we’ve been with for many years. We have some strong leadership and guys running things who really care who deserve much credit. I’m not one of them at this time.

 

[bwible]

Covid shut down a lot of shops, and something that's niche to start with is going to struggle more.

Covid was more the last straw than any radical change. As you said its a niche hobby. If you own a pizza place everybody eats pizza. 1 out of how many is a homebrewer.

I owned a homebrew shop from the end of 2000 til I ran our of money and closed in the summer of 2004. High costs, high shipping. A truck delivery that started at $45 became $75 thanks to W Bush. Fierce online competition, free shipping. I can’t tell you how many times somebody came in with a morebeer catalog back then wanting to beat me up because they were selling something 70 cents cheaper. Its a numbers game. I didn’t have great turnover. When I bought airlocks I bought 100 at a time and paid .49 each. Sold for .99. Morebeer bought 10,000 at a time, paid .29 each and sold for .69 I couldn’t afford 10,000 airlocks, would never have sold them in 10 years, and had nowhere to store them. Guys would come in, ask me 1,000 questions, pull stuff out of boxes, then buy a .99 pack of dry yeast and run home and buy stuff online. Anyway, the store was one of the biggest mistakes of my life. It was a struggle from day 1, and in total I probably lost between $30,000 and $40,000 when all was said and done. I don’t see much changed that would make anybody want to run out and buy or start a homebrew shop today. Thats why nobody has one.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Actually some now have two stores (where there were none) start here (link) and (link) both providing a physical presence (in a lower rent area) and an online store. Time will tell if the local / regional home brewing community will change their buying habits.

 

[Bobby_M]

I get that, and i don't mind supporting LHBS, but i'm not going to pay more than double for it.

I wouldn't expect you to. My post is more explanatory about why the prices are higher and not a guilt trip.

 

[Spartan1979]

Pre-Covid, I had two homebrew shops within 15 minutes of me. Now both have gone away. The first was part of a hardware store that had a very good homebrew section. They decided to close rather than sign a long-term lease. The second opened a brewery in part of their shop and then decided to dedicate the entire space to the brewery. The same thing happen to another shop about thirty minutes away. So that's three shops that have ended sellling homebrew supplies in the last 5 years. There's still one shop about 35 minutes away and another about a hour away. We'll see what happens.

 

[Bobby_M]

It was a struggle from day 1, and in total I probably lost between $30,000 and $40,000 when all was said and done. I don’t see much changed that would make anybody want to run out and buy or start a homebrew shop today. Thats why nobody has one.

I agree 99%. If someone paid me a consultation fee to advise on how to open a homebrew supply store, the best service would be to crush their dreams immediately. The only reason why I'm still in business is that I started as an equipment manufacturer and expanded into a full service shop. Then I further diversified by offering TIG welding. When I look at my revenue breakdown, if I had to survive on selling ingredients and had opened the store only 2 years ago, I'd be gone. MAYBE I could ride the valley out if I consolidated to a 1500sqft space and ran the whole thing by myself.

 

[Bassman2003]

Geographical location dependent, I'm sure. Around here, craft beer is alive and well. The homebrew shops are good and the taprooms are crowded as soon as they open.

I am late to this thread but while the two LHBS in the area are good, there are only two left for a large metropolitan area (Dallas/Ft. Worth) with over 6 million people. The trend is weakness as these stores need a certain amount of volume to stay in business. I certainly do not keep them in business and I brew all grain 6-12 times a year. It is telling that Morebeer re-tooled their operations to be more focused on shipping. That is the trend. Amazon has carried the torch for all to see.

The "craft" market is a pretty broad term by now. A lot of homebrewers are now the "pro" brewers for the craft industry and many are not trained in every aspect. This might show in things shelf life or the move to offer more lagers etc... A lot of choices makes it tough for anybody to survive over time as well. Walking down the super market beer isle is sensory overload.

I do not think the beer market needs to be lamented for balancing out but I do lament for the homebrew culture as the loss of LHBSs means less homebrewing social interaction.

Another thing I have noticed is the disappearance of a lot of tap handles at restaurants. I would appear that the distributors have clamped down on what gets offered as I see a lot of the usual suspects instead of craft or local yokels.

 

[Bassman2003]

The only reason why I'm still in business is that I started as an equipment manufacturer and expanded into a full service shop. Then I further diversified by offering TIG welding.

As evidenced by the awesome custom jumpers Bobby made for me. Thanks again!!

 

[An Ankoù]

I'm in the UK, so none of this is relevant to you US folks, and I only started brewing Jan this year, so I don't know anything about any long term trends, but here's what I've noticed in London since starting this year.

I haven't lived in the UK for 10 years, but I'm astonished that they're isn't a local homebrew store in the whole of London.
When I started brewing in Poole, Dorset, in the early 80s they're were 2 HBSs within easy cycling distance and another on Wimborne market. They're long gone now.
Here in sunny France there are only two serious contenders (online) for the entire country although I tend to get my stuff either from Ireland or from Belgium.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

I definitely think home brewing as a hobby is taking a big hit in all of this. The plethora of beer options between local brew pubs, them selling packaged versions for home and the overall variety of beer available at most liquor stores is a real deterrent for more casual potential and former brewers. So maybe we should be blaming the rise in breweries for the death of homebrewing. I also say that tongue in cheek, homebrewing will just become a niche hobby like others.

I'm surprised that I came to this thread at 4 pages long, and this was only mentioned once (and not commented on).

I feel like we tend to think that the popularity of homebrewing / craft brewing should correlate with each other. And that may be a LITTLE bit true, i.e. more craft beer available gets more people interested in craft beer, and maybe that means more try to make it at home.

But I also think that we have to look at this as a much bigger market effect...

I'd argue that the rise of homebrewing predated the rise of micro and craft beer. And that the rise of homebrewing was to a large extent due to a lack of variety in the available beer market. We wanted something that BMC and Euro imports wasn't providing... So we made it ourselves.

I know for me, as I started getting into beer in college (late 90's), micro was still quite small. I'd occasionally drink something like Rolling Rock. Sam Adams wasn't that big around me. When I wanted "better" beer it was usually something Euro like Bass or Harp or Guinness. Then in the early 2000s I moved to CA, and started trying real craft beer. Stone Arrogant Bastard was an eye-opening experience. But, alas, I moved to Georgia in 2005 (for only two years) which was a beer desert at the time. Restaurants had BMC and Sam Adams on tap, you had to go to specialty liquor stores to find any craft selection (which was poor), and that was about it. You simply couldn't find craft beer anywhere. And I started making my own, because there was NOT a craft beer scene anywhere near me.

So it wasn't just correlation--it was causation. The lack of available micro/craft beer commercially caused the rise of homebrewing. Some of those early homebrewers, if they had success, became commercial brewers. Thus, the rise of home brewing predated and caused the rise in craft brewing.

But in a country with nearly 10K breweries, nearly no geography is a "beer desert" today. Drinkers can find all sorts of obscure offerings at craft breweries, at restaurants which have craft on tap, and you can find craft beer on supermarket shelves and most liquor stores will have massive offering. Craft beer is pretty much ubiquitous now.

So right now the force that pushed people to make their own--a lack of quality variety--doesn't exist. So you'll get some growth from hobbyists who just like doing things themselves, but let's face it... Making good beer at home requires a significant investment of time, money, and learning. More than a lot of people are willing to put in, when they have a bunch of commercial options readily available.

So to me it would make perfect sense that we see some decoupling of homebrewing and craft. The very thing that made homebrewing attractive then--a lack of commercial options--is what is making homebrewing less necessary now.

 

[Willy]

This thread is a fun read and I enjoyed the segue into "tipping" practices of so many tap rooms. Looks by @Bobby_M tied the two parts together by offering a solid " tip" for anyone wanting to open a LHBS. So, I thought - the next time I am at a local taproom and really disappointed in the beer, my tip will be "Other" ...something like
more malt, less hops.

No need to steal the neon sign. Hahaha

 

[Bobby_M]

So to me it would make perfect sense that we see some decoupling of homebrewing and craft. The very thing that made homebrewing attractive then--a lack of commercial options--is what is making homebrewing less necessary now.

I think it might be somewhat true. It's hard to accept that people are motivated by different things than I am but I never started brewing because I couldn't find good beer and I haven't stopped because there is already too much good beer out there. There are plenty of good bagel shops in town but it doesn't stop me from making them at home. There are good coffee shops around here but I still roast beans. I think for most people, you either have a DIY spirit or you don't.

This topic comes up in my store. About 10% of my walk in business is CO2 and kegerator parts for people that don't brew but DO have home kegerators. They ask me why people make their own beer when there is so many places to get kegs.

Is it cheaper? Rarely.
Is it better? Sometimes.
Are you insane? Absolutely.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

I think for most people, you either have a DIY spirit or you don't.

Agreed, and I certainly do. I cure , smoke, and slice my own bacon. It's not because I can't find quality bacon at the store. I just enjoy it, and it's really quite easy.

I think what people do or don't choose to DIY can be dependent on external factors such as commercial availability/quality, commercial product cost, startup equipment costs, learning curve to produce quality product yourself, etc etc.

I tend to DIY, but I don't do *everything* myself. Had I been 2006 version of myself dropped into 2025, with the massive amount of commercial craft beer available, I might have picked up a different DIY hobby than homebrewing. Or quit the hobby when I was still in the 5 gal stovetop stage without fermentation temp control, because it was difficult and my beer wasn't turning out great. Instead, I stuck with it, and now I can produce 10 gallons of high quality beer almost on autopilot, because I've been doing it since 2006 and I've got my process and system dialed in.

An example for me is breadmaking. I've tried to make a sourdough starter--and failed. I've tried to bake simple loaves with commercial yeast and they always seem to come out too dense... I don't get that nice airy crumb that I want. I keep saying I'm going to go back and keep trying, but then I'll go 6-8 months between trying to bake a couple loaves because they don't turn out the way I want. And that's something that basically takes zero equipment investment (at least beyond things I already owned)... If I'd bought a 5 gallon system for brewing today and was producing beer at the quality at which I produce bread--it simply wouldn't be worth it.

 

[Bassman2003]

Good points. All that will be left is us tired, old Gen Xers who have the DIY spirit yelling at other beer drinkers to get off our lawn. (or corner of the nursing home rec room).

 

[mac_1103]

You simply couldn't find craft beer anywhere. And I started making my own, because there was NOT a craft beer scene anywhere near me.

So it wasn't just correlation--it was causation.

I gotta say that I was a little bit surprised to read this perspective from someone twenty years younger than me, but I guess the "beer desert" thing is the explanation. Over the years I've gotten cheap and/or free equipment from a few guys who had stopped brewing basically for this reason, but they were all my age or older. One guy said he got into brewing when he got out of the army because after being stationed in Europe for most of six years he just couldn't make himself drink American beer anymore and most of the few imports you could find were stale by the time you got them. But twenty or thirty years later finding a variety of good beer just wasn't an issue anymore.

 

[user 348755]

This thread is a fun read and I enjoyed the segue into "tipping" practices of so many tap rooms. Looks by @Bobby_M tied the two parts together by offering a solid " tip" for anyone wanting to open a LHBS. So, I thought - the next time I am at a local taproom and really disappointed in the beer, my tip will be "Other" ...something like
more malt, less hops.

No need to steal the neon sign. Hahaha

Lol. There are so many unscrupulous brewers out there that I had to ask one of them if his pilsner was an actual "pilsner" as in, was it really lagered? He didn't appreciate it.

 

[FloppyKnockers]

Lol. There are so many unscrupulous brewers out there that I had to ask one of them if his pilsner was an actual "pilsner" as in, was it really lagered? He didn't appreciate it.

How long must a lager lager before a lager can be called lager? That said, wouldn't a lager still be a lager even if you skipped lagering?

 

[Miraculix]

How long must a lager lager before a lager can be called lager? That said, wouldn't a lager still be a lager even if you skipped lagering?

BLASPHEMIE!

 

[BrewZer]

Lol. There are so many unscrupulous brewers out there that I had to ask one of them if his pilsner was an actual "pilsner" as in, was it really lagered? He didn't appreciate it.

That's like asking an MMA fighter if his sister is as ugly as everyone says she is...

 

[BrewZer]

How long must a lager lager before a lager can be called lager? That said, wouldn't a lager still be a lager even if you skipped lagering?

How much lager could a lager head lager if a lager head could lager lager?

 

[user 348755]

How long must a lager lager before a lager can be called lager? That said, wouldn't a lager still be a lager even if you skipped lagering?

Have a pickle beer while you ponder that question.