What method is this? Partial Mash or Steeping?

[gabe00818]

I just finished my second batch of beer (it's currently fermenting) and followed these instructions from a local brew store. However, I am unsure what method this is. It seems like partial mash, however the instructions did not call for holding the temp, but rather to let it "rest."

Extracts:
5.6 lb Amber Malt Extract
1 lb Dark Malt Extract
1 lb Lactose (end of boil)

Grain:
.25 lb Wheat Malt
.75 lb 6 row
.25 lb American Crystal 90L
.25 lb Belgian Carapils
.25 lb Roasted Barley
.25 lb Belgian Special B
.5 lb Chocalte
.25 lb Black Patent
.5 lb Flaked Barley
.5 lb Flaked Oats

Hops:
.25 oz Warrior 17.2% 60 min
.25 oz Warrior 17.2% 30 min
1 oz Williamette 5.5% 10 min

Wyeast 1056 American Ale
1 tsp Gypsum, 1 tsp Irish Moss (10 min)

Instructions:
Combine grains and flaked barley and oats and put into a grain bag or muslin bag. Heat 2 gallons of filtered water along with Brew Saltz to 165*F. Turn off heat, add grain bag. (Do Not add grains to water above 165*F.). Let temperature rest down to 122*F., about 30 minutes, stirring grain bag gently from time to time. Leave pot uncovered during this time. Slowly heat back to 162*F. Then remove grainbag and let drain into brew pot. Do Not Squeeze Grain Bag! Rinse grains over brew pot by slowly pouring 1 quart of HOT tap water over top of grain bag. Discard grains. With the heat off, add malt extracts only and stir. Turn on heat and while stirring bring to a boil. (It then goes on to discuss the hop additions)

1. So, what exactly is this? I would like to know so I can properly configure Beersmith and/or Beertools.

2. Interestingly, using trial versions of Beersmith and Beertools, I got an OG of 1.072; however I ended up getting 1.064. What happened?

3. While I'm at it, the recipe originally called for a .5 Phoenix Hops (10%) which the store did not have. Clerk recommended Warrior instead. But using trial versions of Beersmith and Beertools, I got vastly different IBU calculations. Beertools said to go with .25 oz of Warrior (instead of .5) for a mid-30 IBU, whereas Beersmith said .25 oz would give an IBU right below 20. I went with the Beetools recommendation for no specific reason, but fear Beersmith might have been correct and I will now have a low hoppy beer (which isn't necessarily bad). Why the difference?

Sorry for the long post, but I am really confused right now. Regardless, I'm still thoroughly enjoying brewing beer. Thanks in advance!!

 

[user 19629]

That would be a partial mash.
The letting the mash cool to 122° is a bit odd.
That might account for your low OG?
The raising back to 168° is basically a mashout.
As far as the hops I would bet beer tools has different defaults for the alpha acid% in those two different hops. Look at whatever AA% was on the hops you used and make sure it matches what's in BeerSmith.

 

[AR-Josh]

So what would steeping be?

 

[Nateo]

That recipe is way more complicated than I ever make. Like with cooking, good ingredients prepared simply make the best product.

I started off using recipes from the brew store, but I've come to suspect that those recipes are just a good way for the brew store to sell you lots of specialty grain. The best beers I've ever made had only a couple ingredients.

 

[brewhooligan]

Looks like a mini-mash to me. The flaked barley, flaked oats, Special B and wheat malt are all grains that generally require a mash. Considering you've got 1.5 pounds of mash grains, I probably would have used more than 3/4 lb of 6-row. Although, 6-row has more diastatic mojo than other base malts, so you're probably fine.

Doing a mini-mash in the way you described probably didn't result in the same efficiency that Beersmith was using to calculate the OG. If you hit 1.064, I'd say you did pretty well.

 

[MalFet]

So what would steeping be?

Mashing is using enzymes in grain to convert starches into sugars. Steeping is using hot water to pull already converted sugars into the water, like making tea. It is a rather firm distinction. Some grains must be mashed (including all base malts), where as others can be mashed or steeped (many specialty grains).

Some of the malts in that (very strange) recipe could be steeped, but the majority need to be mashed for a good 60 min to be useful.

 

[weirdboy]

Looks like a mini-mash to me. The flaked barley, flaked oats, Special B and wheat malt are all grains that generally require a mash. Considering you've got 1.5 pounds of mash grains, I probably would have used more than 3/4 lb of 6-row. Although, 6-row has more diastatic mojo than other base malts, so you're probably fine.

Doing a mini-mash in the way you described probably didn't result in the same efficiency that Beersmith was using to calculate the OG. If you hit 1.064, I'd say you did pretty well.

Now hang on a minute. Special B does not need to be mashed, and wheat malt has its own diastatic power and is often used as a base malt.

 

[gabe00818]

Thanks for everyones quick responses! I figured this was a partial mash since some of the grains needed to be mashed. I just am unsure why I had to let it rest vs. keeping it at 162.

As for the IBU's, I adjusted the Alpha in both Beersmith and Beertools and they both came out vastly different. Could someone plug in this recipe and tell me what they get? I'm not so worried about this batch, but I want to be able to properly create future recipes.

And for you Beersmith users (as I think I will go with Beersmith when 2.0 comes out instead of Beertools), what settings should I use? Partial Mash? What about efficiency?

 

[weirdboy]

as I think I will go with Beersmith when 2.0 comes out instead of Beertools

You could be waiting a REALLY long time for 2.0. I mean seriously if you like Beersmith as it stands now, then use it. Don't wait for a new version, though.

You should use Partial Mash. For these types of recipes the efficiency is usually pretty low in my experience. I would set it to something like 60% and then be pleasantly surprised if you overshoot your OG, and then if you do so consistently bump the efficiency up.

 

[gabe00818]

You could be waiting a REALLY long time for 2.0. I mean seriously if you like Beersmith as it stands now, then use it. Don't wait for a new version, though.

You should use Partial Mash. For these types of recipes the efficiency is usually pretty low in my experience. I would set it to something like 60% and then be pleasantly surprised if you overshoot your OG, and then if you do so consistently bump the efficiency up.

It does seems like 2.0 is going to be awhile. I'll probably just buy it now and upgrade later. Hopefully, they'll have an existing user upgrade option.

Thanks for the help on setting this up. My brewing process just went from 10 mph to 80 mph in about a week!!

 

[user 19629]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
As for the IBU's, I adjusted the Alpha in both Beersmith and Beertools and they both came out vastly different. Could someone plug in this recipe and tell me what they get? I'm not so worried about this batch, but I want to be able to properly create future recipes.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Check and make sure they are using the same formula to calculate the IBU's.There are a bunch of them, Rager, Tinseth, etc.

 

[brewhooligan]

Now hang on a minute. Special B does not need to be mashed, and wheat malt has its own diastatic power and is often used as a base malt.

Wheat can be used as a base, certainly. But it's still got to be mashed. With regards to Special B, Beersmith has it listed as a "must mash" grain. If it doesn't need to be mashed, I've been misinformed for a while.

 

[wyzazz]

Yep, check the formula used and the AAU's of the hops in each program.

 

[user 19629]

Thanks for everyones quick responses! I figured this was a partial mash since some of the grains needed to be mashed. I just am unsure why I had to let it rest vs. keeping it at 162.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

162° would be on the very high end of the mash temps.
You want to use water at a higher temp then your desired mash temp.
Because the temp will come down after adding the hotter water to the cooler grains. Usually not down to 122° most folks mash somewhere in the 150°'s

 

[AR-Josh]

It does seems like 2.0 is going to be awhile. I'll probably just buy it now and upgrade later. Hopefully, they'll have an existing user upgrade option.

Thanks for the help on setting this up. My brewing process just went from 10 mph to 80 mph in about a week!!

Yeah this website does that. My check book seems to have done the same thing too.

 

[BigB]

IMHO that recipe is more of a cross between steeping and a partial mash. The directions seem to specify a steep, but the use of 6 row in that recipe suggests a mini-mash(I've never heard of steeping 6 row). I also agree that the temperature rest to 122 is very odd and is likely a typo. Despite what Beersmith says, you can still steep the "must mash" grains to get flavor and color. The "must mash" is just a reference to getting fermentable sugars. Many extract recipes use "must mash" grains in a steep.

 

[weirdboy]

Wheat can be used as a base, certainly. But it's still got to be mashed. With regards to Special B, Beersmith has it listed as a "must mash" grain. If it doesn't need to be mashed, I've been misinformed for a while.

Beersmith is wrong, it's a type of crystal/caramel malt and is a steeping grain.

Wheat must be mashed, but it does not count as a "mash grain" like the others in your list. That is, it is capable of converting itself so it would not count against the diastatic potential of the 6-row, and in fact would help it out. Which means there's plenty of base grains for the amount of flaked oats & barley in the recipe.

 

[MalFet]

IMHO that recipe is more of a cross between steeping and a partial mash. The directions seem to specify a steep, but the use of 6 row in that recipe suggests a mini-mash(I've never heard of steeping 6 row). I also agree that the temperature rest to 122 is very odd and is likely a typo. Despite what Beersmith says, you can still steep the "must mash" grains to get flavor and color. The "must mash" is just a reference to getting fermentable sugars. Many extract recipes use "must mash" grains in a steep.

I'm skeptical of that last statement, but I"d love to be proven wrong. Recipes occasionally use a very small quantity of torrified wheat for head retention and AHS was even using a 1/2 lb of two row with steeping recipes to ostensibly help with extraction with other specialty grains, but I'm surprised to hear you suggest that steeping extracts flavor or color from a base malt. Starches, certainly, which can make your beer nice and cloudy. Can you point me to a real recipe that does this?

 

[weirdboy]

I also agree that the temperature rest to 122 is very odd and is likely a typo.

I don't think so. Protein rests are pretty common in recipes that have 50% or more wheat malt as a base grain. It's not strictly necessary, and depending upon what kind of beer you're going for it's not the right thing to do, but it definitely is not a typo IMO.

 

[BigB]

I don't think so. Protein rests are pretty common in recipes that have 50% or more wheat malt as a base grain. It's not strictly necessary, and depending upon what kind of beer you're going for it's not the right thing to do, but it definitely is not a typo IMO.

I agree completely... but you don't start at 165 and let it cool off to 122! You start at 122, rest, then ramp up to your mashing temp. Going in reverse would be useless. Unless I read his post wrong, but as I recall he said to allow the wort to cool off to 122.

 

[BigB]

Can you point me to a real recipe that does this?

Well to answer your question, I need to know what you consider to be a "real recipe"? A commercially sold kit? I hope that's not what you meant!

 

[MalFet]

Well to answer your question, I need to know what you consider to be a "real recipe"? A commercially sold kit? I hope that's not what you meant!

Any recipe that looks like its designers knew what they were doing would work. (I.e., not this one.) If you steep long enough, you'll get some conversion of course...I just don't think you'll get much color or flavor. Unless you're going for starch and husk, I guess.

 

[BigB]

True, you wouldn't get anything with simple 2 row or 6 row or even pilsner for that matter, but you would with aromatic, munich, rye, special roast, and a host of others that Beersmith labels as "must mash". Thats why I said that the 6 row would suggest a mini-mash... because it really serves no other purpose than to help with conversion.

BTW: Love the avatar... who is it?

 

[MalFet]

True, you wouldn't get anything with simple 2 row or 6 row or even pilsner for that matter, but you would with aromatic, munich, rye, special roast, and a host of others that Beersmith labels as "must mash". Thats why I said that the 6 row would suggest a mini-mash... because it really serves no other purpose than to help with conversion.

BTW: Love the avatar... who is it?

True that. I'm not a Beersmith user, and didn't realize they are so...generous...with their must mash label. Anyway, thanks for the explanation. The avatar is C.S. Peirce. We should start an old guy avatar club.

 

[BigB]

The avatar is C.S. Peirce. We should start an old guy avatar club.

I'm game. My avatar is Oliver Wendall Holmes Jr.

 

[weirdboy]

I agree completely... but you don't start at 165 and let it cool off to 122! You start at 122, rest, then ramp up to your mashing temp. Going in reverse would be useless. Unless I read his post wrong, but as I recall he said to allow the wort to cool off to 122.

Oh, you're right. I automatically read it the other way, I guess, because the way it's written makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[MalFet]

So where the heck is this recipe from anyway, gabe? It's very...strange.

 

[gabe00818]

It's from a local brew store in Tucson called Brewers Connection. The guy had a book of recipes he collected through the years and this one looked good. They have a website with some of these recipes on there. The owner (of the store, not the recipe) used to run a well-known local brewery and seems to be pretty knowledgeable. He is an all-grain guy so hadn't personally tried the recipe but heard good things about it. Very early taste tests have been positive (though with a touch too much coffee taste for me). Fermentation has been good and is starting to slow down (I brewed it this past Sunday). I'm really looking for a couple stout recipes that I will alter based on my preferences and call my own. So, we'll see how this one comes out.

 

[MalFet]

It's from a local brew store in Tucson called Brewers Connection. The guy had a book of recipes he collected through the years and this one looked good. They have a website with some of these recipes on there. The owner (of the store, not the recipe) used to run a well-known local brewery and seems to be pretty knowledgeable. He is an all-grain guy so hadn't personally tried the recipe but heard good things about it. Very early taste tests have been positive (though with a touch too much coffee taste for me). Fermentation has been good and is starting to slow down (I brewed it this past Sunday). I'm really looking for a couple stout recipes that I will alter based on my preferences and call my own. So, we'll see how this one comes out.

Great! If it tastes good, that's all that matters. There are a few things that are odd...the recipe mash starts very, very hot (which will lead to a relatively unfermentable mash -> high FG) and an "everything including the kitchen sink" grain bill (which can sometimes cause a "muddy" flavor profile).

It is great that you want to tweak your own recipes. It's a fun part of all of this. I'd start with a more straight forward stout recipe, though, and then tweak from there. This one has so much in it that you might have a hard time changing it in predictable ways.

 

[gabe00818]

Good advice. Any good links for on-line recipes?