What is this flavor in my beers?

[westwardclock]

I'm fairly new to home brewing. I have made 9 batches so far. The first 2 were extract kits 1 pale ale and 1 ipa. For the most part they were successes. I fermented them in a temperature controlled freezer. The next 4 were all grain kits from AHS, a hefeweizen, amber ale, and 2 light lagers. AHS crushed the grain for me. Each of those were successes. The next was an All Grain IPA. This one has the flavor I am talking about and its STRONG. I fermented it at room temperature(70-72) I was certain that room temperature fermentation was the problem. I thought it was fusel alcohols that I was tasting. Just a strong taste that went to the nose most prominent in the aftertaste. I hoped after letting sit in the bottle for a long time it would dissappear or at least would be less strong. Its been over 6 weeks and hasn't changed. This led me to believe further that it was fusels because I read that they don't get better after aging. Next I brewed a stout, which I fermented again at room temperature but turned out terrific with none of this off flavor that I speaking of.

Later I made a pale ale in which I fermented in my temperature controlled freezer(controlled at 62-64, then raised to 68 after about 4 days). After approx 1 week in my freezer it appears that fermentation is about complete I slowly bring it to 70F and then take it out of the freezer and let it sit at room temperature for another week or so. Well it has the same taste as the IPA earlier but just less of it. I was so sure it was a temperature problem. I'm wrong and completely lost on what to do. I'm strict about sanitation, all my numbers for FG and OG look good. I'm making yeast starters and oxygenate my wort prior to pitching. I'm so frustrated because this flavor is so off putting.

This may not be a common practice but I'm willing to ship my beer to anyone willing to diagnose my problem. I just don't know what to do and unfortunately I cannot describe the flavor. Maybe plastic??? It really tastes unnatural and never have tasted a hint of it in commercial beers.

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

 

[westwardclock]

My first 6 beers, which didnt have the off flavor, I used 100% bottled sprig water. That first ipa I used about half tap water and half bottled spring. My tap water probably has some amount of chlorine in it. So that later pale ale I made I used 100% bottled water to try and eliminate it as a possible problem. Unfortunately that flavor was still there.
I do rinse and mix my sanitizer with the tap water. I try to let everything drip dry before using though. Could the little residual tap water with chlorine really be this big of a deal?

 

[+HopSpunge+]

You never described your mash process.

 

[+HopSpunge+]

Edit: thats probably not it, but you never no. You could be mashing with boiling water.

 

[westwardclock]

I have a 10 gallon cooler. I pre warm it with 170f water for 10 minutes. The. Add half of my pre boil volume of water plus mash tun dead space plus grain absorption to the cooler. Add the grain and stir for 5 minutes. Check temperature my recipes are calling for 150-152f. My strike temperature of course is usually 167-170 depending on mash temp. Close up the cooler. Stir again halfway through. Check for conversion at 60 minutes. Vorlauf until clear and then drain into my kettle. Add remaining half of pre boil volume to cooler and stir mash. Wait 10 minutes vorlauf until clear and drain to kettle.

 

[westwardclock]

My second addition of water is 175F

 

[Beernik]

I don't understand what the flavor is other than its strong and doesn't go away. Do either of these descriptions help?

Fusel alcohol is strong, hot, burning, rocket fuel, etc.

The other possibility I'm thinking is astringent. Astringent is dry, puckery, sandpapery, gaggy, bitter beer face, etc.

I'm assuming its not yeast bite or autolysis.

I'm thinking that you shouldn't get fusel alcohol flavors from 72F temperatures. Maybe fruity esters or spicy phenols (i.e. clove).

Edit: now I see where you said plastic. Is it plastic - medicinal or plastic - solvent?

 

[westwardclock]

That's part of the problem. I am having a very hard time describing the flavor. I can pick it up immediately but don't know what it is. I'm guessing plastic but whether medicinal or solvent. I have no idea.

 

[Beernik]

I'm going to defer to Palmer's book.

http://www.howtobrew.com/section4/chapter21-2.html

My three guesses:

1. Under Solvent Like: high fermentation temp + oxidization = solventy

2. Under Medicinal: chlorine based reaction with either your water or a chlorine based cleaner

3. Your beer's internal fermentation temp is hotter than you think it is and you are getting lots of phenols.

 

[unionrdr]

Try reading this & see if it helps describe it; http://draftmag.com/offflavors/

 

[westwardclock]

Try reading this & see if it helps describe it; http://draftmag.com/offflavors/

I guess it's somewhere in the phenolic, chlorophenolic, ortho chlorophenolic, medicinal. A lot is pointing to chlorine which is hard to believe. My first 6 batches had no trace of it. I did use bottled water for the mash and sparge however all sanitizing was starsan with tap water. I recreated that with my last batch which has that flavor. Not even sure what to try as a test to eliminate it. It does seem like it appears after bottling.

 

[unionrdr]

Starsan is a no rinse sanitizer. Maybe some chlorine in the rinse water? Such a small amount though. But Starsan shouldn't be rinsed. Could be you have a low level infection causing it in your equipment. After thorough cleaning & rinsing,sanitize with the Starsan & stop rinsing it off.

 

[westwardclock]

Yeah I don't rinse after sanitizing. Just drain.

 

[unionrdr]

Well,Starsan is an acid sanitizer,so that's not it. I'm starting to think something in your process changed...a piece of equipment not cleaned & sanitized properly...? Think back & try to be sure you're not missing something.

 

[westwardclock]

I'm thinking pretty hard about changes. There has been a few but nothing consistent enough to put a finger on the problem. Went from extract, to all grain with the supplier crushing my grain, to crushing it myself now. I had an immersion chiller. During the first bad beer and now a plate chiller with the next bad one. I did oxygenate with a stone just stuck in the fermenter which included the first bad beer. The next bad beer I used inline oxygenation after leaving the ate chiller. First bad beer I dry hopped in a secondary. The next bad beer was in the primary. In between the 2 bad beers was a good one. I have 2 more on the way(which I have not tasted yet). 1 of them is dry hopping and the other is finished with primary and will go to a secondary next weekend. I am going to taste them closely to see if the flavor is present at that time or not. I'm thinking it only shows up after bottling.

 

[westwardclock]

Maybe the bottling bucket, bottle filler, or auto siphon is harboring bacteria. Bottling bucket is my sanitizing bucket so I never think its the problem. The auto siphon is difficult to clean well before sanitizing maybe its one of them.

 

[unionrdr]

Here's another thought. Are your hops fresh? Old hops can grow some funk of their own. It (Isovaleric acid) Can taste like cheese,sweat,or must.

 

[westwardclock]

I buy from popular online stores and when I get them they go straight to the freezer until use. They smell good to me but I really don't know for sure.

 

[westwardclock]

[

 

[Joe Dragon]

Water water water. I'm guessing you are dealing with somewhat hard water. The two beers that were a problem were high and medium bitterness.

What you are tasting, IMO, is astringency related to water high in minerals in relation to hop bitterness.

Hoppy beers brewed with hard water can be extremely astringent and down right nasty tasting.

 

[westwardclock]

Water water water. I'm guessing you are dealing with somewhat hard water. The two beers that were a problem were high and medium bitterness.

What you are tasting, IMO, is astringency related to water high in minerals in relation to hop bitterness.

Hoppy beers brewed with hard water can be extremely astringent and down right nasty tasting.

I definitely could see the high mineral content of the first(ipa) bad beer since half water was tap but the second was 100% bottled spring water. Are you saying I should be using RO water because the spring water had high mineral content?

 

[grathan]

Which spring water was it?

 

[westwardclock]

Oh boy I think I've used nestle, IGA, deer park, and great value. Whatever was in stock or on sale

 

[Joe Dragon]

I definitely could see the high mineral content of the first(ipa) bad beer since half water was tap but the second was 100% bottled spring water. Are you saying I should be using RO water because the spring water had high mineral content?

At least cut it with R.O. water. Spring water is not necessarily low-mineral water.

"A 2009 report found that nearly half of the bottled water in PET plastic bottles came from municipal sources."

Googling Nestle spring water mineral content gives a lot of useful information including a PH range of 6.0 to 6.9.

www.nestle-watersna.com/asset-library/documents/ps_eng.pdf‎

(Not sure if that link will work for you but you'll find it)

 

[Yooper]

I'm also thinking it's the water- that's why the stout was great but the lighter colored beers not so much. I think it's the mash pH, but there isn't any way to really know without tasting the beer.

Temperature does play a huge part, but so does mash pH.

For the next batch on a lighter colored beer (not a brown ale or stout), I'd try buying all RO water from the "water machines" that are at some grocery stores and in other places like Wal-Mart. Add 1 teaspoon of calcium chloride to the water for every 5 gallons and stir well. Use that water for brewing the entire batch.

Make your yeast starter as normal, and make sure to chill the wort to 65 degrees or less before pitching. Hold the fermentation temperature at 65-68 for a week or more before letting it rise.

If the flavor is still present, then you know it's an infection process and not the water or technique.

 

[westwardclock]

That sounds like a good test

 

[westwardclock]

After several days of non-stop reading of forum posts and articles to try and pinpoint the problem I may have finally stumbled onto something wrong with my mashing process. Let me know if this could be contributing to what others have recently said in this thread on ph of my mash. Well it's simple as I have been mashing with too much water. My initial strike volume is usually at least 1.25 gallons more than what most batch sparge process call for. Could this contribute to raising my ph to a point where I may get off flavors in particular medicinal/band aide/or plastic? I have no idea what the alkalinity is of the water I have been using. If It was high from the start is it reasonable to say adding too much will raise it further?

Instead of adding top off water or mash out water at the end of the mash I was calculating it in the from the start. That's how I have been getting such an excess of water.

I'm in the process of deciding on getting colorphast strips or a meter. Either way I need to know if I'm in the ballpark.

 

[Travestian]

Well it's simple as I have been mashing with too much water. My initial strike volume is usually at least 1.25 gallons more than what most batch sparge process call for.

I noticed this too and it would definitely contribute to your pH being too high. It's very likely a combination of this and the hard water. I use the water calculator here and have never had any issues.

 

[grathan]

You using the same yeast every time? Specifically what about the ipa, pale and stout?

 

[Yooper]

After several days of non-stop reading of forum posts and articles to try and pinpoint the problem I may have finally stumbled onto something wrong with my mashing process. Let me know if this could be contributing to what others have recently said in this thread on ph of my mash. Well it's simple as I have been mashing with too much water. My initial strike volume is usually at least 1.25 gallons more than what most batch sparge process call for. Could this contribute to raising my ph to a point where I may get off flavors in particular medicinal/band aide/or plastic? I have no idea what the alkalinity is of the water I have been using. If It was high from the start is it reasonable to say adding too much will raise it further?

Instead of adding top off water or mash out water at the end of the mash I was calculating it in the from the start. That's how I have been getting such an excess of water.

I'm in the process of deciding on getting colorphast strips or a meter. Either way I need to know if I'm in the ballpark.

It's probably not the excess water- if you have no idea what your water chemistry is, and don't take steps to lower the pH, you probably do have a too-high pH. Even with low alkalinity water, often the pH is too high and many people add acid to their mash to lower the pH.
You could get a water report and use a spreadsheet to guestimate your mash pH if you don't have a pH meter.

 

[westwardclock]

You using the same yeast every time? Specifically what about the ipa, pale and stout?

The stout and ipa were 1056 and the pale ale was 1968.

 

[Travestian]

It's probably not the excess water

If it really is a high pH that is the issue, then I have to politely disagree (in the presence of the Yooper queen) that the excess water would not cause an issue with pH. Since the amount of grain contributes to the pH based on the volume of water, a change in the volume of water would cause a lesser effect on pH for the same amount of grain. Your mash pH would be too high in that regard.

 

[Yooper]

If it really is a high pH that is the issue, then I have to politely disagree (in the presence of the Yooper queen) that the excess water would not cause an issue with pH. Since the amount of grain contributes to the pH based on the volume of water, a change in the volume of water would cause a lesser effect on pH for the same amount of grain. Your mash pH would be too high in that regard.

But the difference would be minimal. The difference in the amount of water might make a difference of +.2 or something like that. If the mash pH is too high, it's because the mash pH would have been too high even at 1.5 quarts/pound.

The difference in pH between 1.5 quarts/pound and 3 quarts/pound

It's not like a mash pH would have been 5.5 with the "right" amount of water and suddenly 5.9 with more water. That's not possible. Sure, the pH could have been too high- it usually is unless acid is added to a mash. But it's not really the extra water that would cause the problem. It's probably already too high, and the extra water just pushed it higher. To see what I mean, try running a scenario through a water spreadsheet like bru'n water and see the differences.

For example, using my tap water with 9 pounds of two-row, with 3.5 gallons of water (1.5 quarts/pound), the pH would be 6.2.

Using 9 pounds of two-row, with 6.75 gallons of my tap water, the pH would be- 6.2.

Both are too high, but it's not like the cause is using double the water! It's just too high because it was already too high.

 

[scubasteve03]

I may be way off the mark with this but try brewing an extract kit to see if the off taste continues. The way I understand it is that the ph of your water does not affect an extract kits as much as it would an all grain kit due to the mash is completed by the manufacturer using water balanced for it.

Once again, I may be wrong on this one as well but doesn't ph affect hop utilization as well? This may be the reason your IPA has such a strong off flavor.

Please correct me if im wrong, but these are things that I have looked at to improve my process as well.

 

[westwardclock]

I may be way off the mark with this but try brewing an extract kit to see if the off taste continues. The way I understand it is that the ph of your water does not affect an extract kits as much as it would an all grain kit due to the mash is completed by the manufacturer using water balanced for it.

Once again, I may be wrong on this one as well but doesn't ph affect hop utilization as well? This may be the reason your IPA has such a strong off flavor.

Please correct me if im wrong, but these are things that I have looked at to improve my process as well.

I just got an extract kit to help narrow my issue down. I'll be making it this weekend, but unfortunately I won't know anything for a month or more.

 

[westwardclock]

But the difference would be minimal. The difference in the amount of water might make a difference of +.2 or something like that. If the mash pH is too high, it's because the mash pH would have been too high even at 1.5 quarts/pound.

The difference in pH between 1.5 quarts/pound and 3 quarts/pound

It's not like a mash pH would have been 5.5 with the "right" amount of water and suddenly 5.9 with more water. That's not possible. Sure, the pH could have been too high- it usually is unless acid is added to a mash. But it's not really the extra water that would cause the problem. It's probably already too high, and the extra water just pushed it higher. To see what I mean, try running a scenario through a water spreadsheet like bru'n water and see the differences.

For example, using my tap water with 9 pounds of two-row, with 3.5 gallons of water (1.5 quarts/pound), the pH would be 6.2.

Using 9 pounds of two-row, with 6.75 gallons of my tap water, the pH would be- 6.2.

Both are too high, but it's not like the cause is using double the water! It's just too high because it was already too high.

I guess that makes sense to me. I really didn't think that ph could make such offensive flavor in my beer. I thought it would be just more complex vs 1 note flavors. I have read its possible to get astringency but reading about that leads me to believe its a feeling more than a taste. I'm getting a definite taste/aroma. Burping echoes it. It's bad.

 

[Yooper]

I guess that makes sense to me. I really didn't think that ph could make such offensive flavor in my beer. I thought it would be just more complex vs 1 note flavors.

It depends on how high the pH is, but I've noticed a very harsh astringent flavor in lighter colored beers brewed with alkaline water (high mash pH). It's hard to say if this is your issue, though, without knowing the water source or the flavor exactly. It's just one of the possibilities.

You can get a water report from Ward Lab for $26.50 or so. It was like $16 up until a couple of months ago, as they just raised their prices. It might be worth it, just to know what you have to work with in your brewing water, and to help you know how to deal with your water.

 

[westwardclock]

I plan on getting my water tested. I also thought about testing the spring water that I used tested. However there is no guarantee that the water is of the same source even if its in the same packaging. Because of that I think I may use distilled or RO water in the future and adjust from neutral, In The case that my tap is unacceptable.

It's reasonable to believe that spring waters are different from source to source but ro/distilled should be almost identical. Correct?

 

[Yooper]

It's reasonable to believe that spring waters are different from source to source but ro/distilled should be almost identical. Correct?

Yes, assuming the RO machine is taken care of properly. I bought a little GH/KH aquarium test kit for a couple of dollars, just to check the RO water from my RO system occasionally. I know those "water machines" at the stores are supposed to be maintained, but it wouldn't hurt to check with one of those kits or a TDS meter.

 

[westwardclock]

At the start of this post I had 2 beers that were in the primary. I'm tasting both for the first time today. 1 to bottle and 1 to transfer to a secondary. At this point I cannot taste any of my off flavor in either, and best that I can remember I couldn't taste it before bottling on the last one either(going from memory but so I could be wrong). They both seem promising. So Apparently I have some bottling problem or something.