What is the Late Extract Method?

[newhomebrewer1]

how do steeped grains affect OG and hop utilization? i'm using the strangebrew software, which seems to handles steeped grains as if they're being dissolved in the boil. correct me wrong, but wouldn't they have no affect on the OG of the boil upon removal?

 

[Yooper]

how do steeped grains affect OG and hop utilization? i'm using the strangebrew software, which seems to handles steeped grains as if they're being dissolved in the boil. correct me wrong, but wouldn't they have no affect on the OG of the boil upon removal?

Steeping grains would have very little effect on the sg. You're getting color and some flavor, but little fermentable sugars. Shouldn't affect your hops utilitzation at all, since it doesn't significantly raise the sg.

 

[MVKTR2]

Oh my word! What is that? That is so freaking funny. I can't even follow all the hoses. If I didn't know better I'd think it was an attempt to make a home distillery with a garden hose! There are so many jokes to be made about that pic, Polish jokes I might add! (no offense to the Polish) That's just freaking wierd, I mean I'm so impressed I want one, not sure how it works, but I want one just for the "Shock and Awe" effect!

Schlante,
Phillip

Hmmm... What do you mean wrong ways?

 

[Brewsmith]

I believe it is a counterflow chiller. Wort is coming out of the pot via the copper tube that I'm assuming was started by siphon, where it then travels into the carboy. The copper enters the hose that is being fed with cold water, off camera in the lower left, that is draining in the sink, mid left. :rockin:

 

[5 Is Not Enough]

I believe it is a counterflow chiller.

Correct

Wort is coming out of the pot via the copper tube that I'm assuming was started by siphon

autosiphon(in the pot)

where it then travels into the carboy. The copper enters the hose that is being fed with cold water, off camera in the lower left, that is draining in the sink, mid left. :rockin:

Pretty damn close, water in from upper left, drains(lower left) to my floor drain off camera. CFC's feed coolant against the flow (hence - counterflow). The CFC is set up for rigging on my bigger pot with a drain on it, but I just wanted to try it for a small batch here...

 

[5 Is Not Enough]

Oh yeah, and the autosiphon:

still works like a charm

 

[debaniel]

this space intentionally left blank.

(sorry, ignore this post. wrong thread)

 

[_Edge]

I've been using the late extract method for a while now, and I've found it will get you much closer to the color you are looking for than adding extract at the beginning.

Also, unless you are making a big, big beer, you can't even tell the difference in the bitterness. I think some people recommend 60-80% of hops for a late extract batch as a general rule of thumb, but it won't hurt to add hops as you normally would.

I made two batches of wheat beer back to back, one with early (normal) extract and one with late extract. The first one ended up an almost brownish color even though I stirred regularly. The second one was a perfect yellow-gold. also, as far as my palate could tell, they were the same bitterness - and the second beer has gotten more compliments on flavor than the first.

I do bring the wort back up to a boil and really make sure I get rid of any clumps - like you would get with DME. and then stir for a little while after burnout.

-Ed

 

[stormtracker]

Call me dumb.

My reading comprehension isnt the best. Hey Im drinking... And I think its safe to admit this here on this site.

Here goes.... add 2 times the hops and boil 30 minutes for this late LME method? Correct?

 

[Chello]

Call me dumb.

My reading comprehension isnt the best. Hey Im drinking... And I think its safe to admit this here on this site.

Here goes.... add 2 times the hops and boil 30 minutes for this late LME method? Correct?

I don't know the answer to this question/comment, however i just want to give you some props for drinking already. It's 12:00 somewhere!

 

[stormtracker]

I don't know the answer to this question/comment, however i just want to give you some props for drinking already. It's 12:00 somewhere!

lol, i posted that last night. However, I have been known to hit the juice prior to noon.

 

[Chello]

oh yeah, maybe i need a drink to wake my eyes up!

 

[homebrewer_99]

Call me dumb.

My reading comprehension isnt the best. Hey Im drinking... And I think its safe to admit this here on this site.

Here goes.... add 2 times the hops and boil 30 minutes for this late LME method? Correct?

I've experimented with that also, but most of the LA brewing is boiling for 45-60 mins and adding 1/2 to 4/5th of the malt after the 45 min time.

Me? I just boil 1.5 gals with 1 lb of malt, boil 45 then add the rest of the malt and steep for 15.

I tried the 30 min boil, double the hops (add Irish Moss at 15 mins), remove from heat at 30 and steep for 15.

The result was surprising. The bitterness was there as was some flavoring...

 

[HP_Lovecraft]

Curious-

I thought you needed to boil the DME/LME until you have reached the "Hot Break", to ensure that proteins have been broken down, and also to ensure that add impurities will be boiled off (sulfur,etc).

But it seems from this thread that the DME/LME was already boiled during the grain extract process, and its redundant for the home brewer?

 

[homebrewer_99]

Curious-

I thought you needed to boil the DME/LME until you have reached the "Hot Break", to ensure that proteins have been broken down, and also to ensure that add impurities will be boiled off (sulfur,etc).

But it seems from this thread that the DME/LME was already boiled during the grain extract process, and its redundant for the home brewer?

DME and LME have already hit a hotbreak...

 

[oscareyes]

I've been brewing using DME for a while, and have used late addition in my last batches and have experienced a huge improvement in color. i use just alittle DME at the beggining in order to have hop utilization and add most (about 95%) at flameout, dissolve and let it sit for 15-20 minutes. Haven't had any problems plus simplifies a lot brewing i/e more time to drink:rockin:

 

[gwood]

Late addition has been one of the single best things to happen to my beer as of late, mind you I only have five batches under my belt. Keeping the boil gravity in line (1 # DME: 1 gal water roughly gets me 1.040) has really helped with utilization and carmalization is a non issue now. WOOT!

Thanks to all those here that have suggested it!

 

[Ridge Runner]

My brewing method is 3gal boils with all the LME added at the beginning. My understanding is LME yields 36ppg. So if I add 2lbs LME to 1 gal water do I have a gravity of 1.072 ? Then do I add the rest of the LME(5 lbs) to 1gal water at the end of the boil? I really like the idea of late extract additions but I think info overload is making this confusing. I'm looking at the recipes in Brewing Classic Styles by Jamil & John and trying to scale the recipes to a 3gal boil and a late extract addition. To boot, I just got the trial version of Beersmith. The ppg yield listed in How to Brew(pg 193) are different than Jamil & John's assumptions(pg 40) & Beersmith's. I also steep my grains. Elsewhere in this thread I've heard mentioned that steeping grains supplies negligible ppg. I'm down with experimentation, but if it were as easy as adding half the LME with all the hops@ 60mins and the rest of the LME @ knockout I could stop grinding my gears. Holy palindrome Batman, I'm cornfused!!

 

[gwood]

My brewing method is 3gal boils with all the LME added at the beginning. My understanding is LME yields 36ppg. So if I add 2lbs LME to 1 gal water do I have a gravity of 1.072 ? Then do I add the rest of the LME(5 lbs) to 1gal water at the end of the boil? I really like the idea of late extract additions but I think info overload is making this confusing. I'm looking at the recipes in Brewing Classic Styles by Jamil & John and trying to scale the recipes to a 3gal boil and a late extract addition. To boot, I just got the trial version of Beersmith. The ppg yield listed in How to Brew(pg 193) are different than Jamil & John's assumptions(pg 40) & Beersmith's. I also steep my grains. Elsewhere in this thread I've heard mentioned that steeping grains supplies negligible ppg. I'm down with experimentation, but if it were as easy as adding half the LME with all the hops@ 60mins and the rest of the LME @ knockout I could stop grinding my gears. Holy palindrome Batman, I'm cornfused!!

I started down that path...and then quickly made a u-turn Gear grinding stops here :rockin:

I do half and half for the most part and the results have been great. I did a SNPA clone over the weekend that called for 6 # of DME, just steeped my 1 # of caramel 60L @ 160 for 40 minutes in three gallons of water, added 3 # of DME, did my hop schedule, and then 10 minutes prior to flame out I took it off the heat and added my additional 3 # of DME and topped off after cooling. I haven't found a reason to make it any more complicated than that as of yet, but this was my fifth beer so I'm not an expert by any means (and I'm sure that somebody will point out the flaws in my methods). Did the same on an IPA recently that turned out just peachy though...each beer is better and better.

According to beersmith (I just started using it) if you add 2 # LME to 1 gal of water you are going to be at around 1.014...not 1.072. I wouldn't worry about steeping grains in terms of fermentables...very minor. I would just suggest that you go one route and stick with it for a few batches to see what you get and not worry about the numbers all that much (although beersmith is VERY handy).

EDIT: Beersmith is saying that you'd need to add 10 # of LME (pale) to get to 1.072 in one gal of water!!! Yikes.

Oh and...Wildflower seed on the stand and stone, May the four winds blow you safely home!

 

[Yooper]

And don't forget, Beersmith now has a "late extract addition" option by checking the box under the choice. So, you could do 2 pounds DME at the beginning, and then add 4 pounds DME as the "late extract addition" just by checking the box in the options. It will figure your hops utilization, as well as print the directions on your brew sheet!

 

[gwood]

And don't forget, Beersmith now has a "late extract addition" option by checking the box under the choice. So, you could do 2 pounds DME at the beginning, and then add 4 pounds DME as the "late extract addition" just by checking the box in the options. It will figure your hops utilization, as well as print the directions on your brew sheet!

Yes. Forgot to mention that...saved me when I found it!

 

[Ridge Runner]

YooperBrew And don't forget, Beersmith now has a "late extract addition" option

Yeah, that worked. I've only been tweakin this prog for about 3 days now. Finally got the OG to stay right on on my sample batch. Thanks Y'all!!

 

[Brewbeard]

On one of the Sunday Show Brewing Network Podcasts, John Palmer mentions that using the late extract addition can reduce extract twang. I believe it was the 2-25 episode on this page.

He says that extract twang is caused by doing a concentrated boil of malt extract. One can reduce the twang by doing a mostly normal gravity boil with half the extract and adding the rest at the end.

Has anyone here who has tried late extract addition noticed a reduced extract twang in their beer?


He also mentions that caramelization of wort is a myth, though I'm inclined not to believe him in this case. I've never gotten beers as light as some of the pictures posted in this thread.

I'll try this out in one of my future brews to increase hop utilization and see if it does reduce twang.

 

[gwood]

My last batch was much improved in terms of color and lack o' twang as a result of late additions.

 

[smakudwn]

So im doing a Hanks Hefe soon and recipe is
6 lbs. Wheat liquid malt extract, 1 lb. of Light DME, 8 oz. Carapils specialty grains, 1 oz. oz. bittering hops

now do i 1/2 the hops using the Late extract method? Do i just cut the boil down to 45 min?

thanks for any help.

 

[Berlbrew]

Late additions won't effect your hop utilization, only the taste and color of your wort.

Basically, in your standard 5 gallon batch brewed with a kit you will have 2-3 gallons of wort and the end of your boil, and top that off with 2-3 gallons of room temperature water. When your boil is 4-5 gallons, your hops are being distributed throughout that wort more and won't be diminished by topping off with water.

For this Hefe, do a 60 minute boil, add your full ounce of bittering hops, just don't add all your extract at the beginning- add about 30% at 60 min. and 70% at 20 minutes. This will give you a lighter colored, less twangy extract brew.

 

[homebrewer_99]

...On one of the Sunday Show Brewing Network Podcasts, John Palmer mentions that using the late extract addition can reduce extract twang. I believe it was the 2-25 episode on this page...He also mentions that caramelization of wort is a myth, though I'm inclined not to believe him in this case. I've never gotten beers as light as some of the pictures posted in this thread...I'll try this out in one of my future brews to increase hop utilization and see if it does reduce twang.

I've carmelized wort...it's not a myth.

However, the more water you start with and the amount of time you boil are the deciding factors here.

 

[smakudwn]

Late additions won't effect your hop utilization, only the taste and color of your wort.

Basically, in your standard 5 gallon batch brewed with a kit you will have 2-3 gallons of wort and the end of your boil, and top that off with 2-3 gallons of room temperature water. When your boil is 4-5 gallons, your hops are being distributed throughout that wort more and won't be diminished by topping off with water.

For this Hefe, do a 60 minute boil, add your full ounce of bittering hops, just don't add all your extract at the beginning- add about 30% at 60 min. and 70% at 20 minutes. This will give you a lighter colored, less twangy extract brew.

thank you . Ill try it ans see what happens!

 

[Schnitzengiggle]

Late additions won't effect your hop utilization, only the taste and color of your wort.

Basically, in your standard 5 gallon batch brewed with a kit you will have 2-3 gallons of wort and the end of your boil, and top that off with 2-3 gallons of room temperature water. When your boil is 4-5 gallons, your hops are being distributed throughout that wort more and won't be diminished by topping off with water.

For this Hefe, do a 60 minute boil, add your full ounce of bittering hops, just don't add all your extract at the beginning- add about 30% at 60 min. and 70% at 20 minutes. This will give you a lighter colored, less twangy extract brew.

I agree, top off water will dilute the increased utilization aquired by LA method. I have used the full amount of hops that recipes have called for and have never had an overpowering bitterness.

 

[SumnerH]

I agree, top off water will dilute the increased utilization aquired by LA method. I have used the full amount of hops that recipes have called for and have never had an overpowering bitterness.

+1 on this.

Hops utilization isn't affected by wort gravity. So late addition isn't going to help with utilization.

This is something most of the common formulas for estimating IBUs get wrong, so if your software has a flag to adjust hops utilization for late additions you're better off leaving it off even if you're doing a late addition.